The Debate of God.

[Thief]

Why can't you just go sweep the floor instead, and stop making a fuss?

'And the Lord will sweep and garnish His floor....'

 

[Anatta]

Not all.

This thread isn't really about 'proving' God.
It's more to what you expect in life after death.

If you have no God...no belief in life after death....
Then you don't really have a dog in this fight.
And it would be you, who is confused.

Unless of course it IS your intention to go about the forum...trolling.

Some people are confused...some are boring....

Expectations for life after death make for a very interesting topic. What's odd is that yours seem to involve chopping people to pieces.

You cultivate a strange fascination with violence in your posts. You seek to rationalize it, give it purpose, exalt and enshrine it. You make bizarre attempts to lionize angels as executioners in god's service. What's especially offputting is that you seem to wish for a violent, cruel afterlife, where you will finally get to perpetrate violence against others, justified by a mandate from god. And then you drag "the Carpenter" into it.

Taking a page from your own playbook, I will quote myself from a previous post, which you conveniently (but not surprisingly) ignored:


I'd like to point out that Jesus had a different reason for why we should all try not to become Hitler. Jesus advocated compassion. Compassion for a prostitute, for criminals, tax collectors...
Jesus used his final, dying breath to ask his father for compassion for the soldiers who were executing him.


In none of his parables did Jesus ever encourage violent retribution. Instead, he gave an example by risking his own safety to protect the condemned from the fury of a vindictive, wrathful crowd. A crowd, I presume, full of people like you. He also tried to get those very people to view their god as a loving and forgiving parent. You seem to have missed the significance of all this, which is why I maintain that you are very confused.

godnotgod hit the nail on the head: you suffer from a preoccupation with the "Hero Myth", which you perversely try to prop up with the Christian gospels, even if you contradict them in the process.

 

[Thief]

Expectations for life after death make for a very interesting topic. What's odd is that yours seem to involve chopping people to pieces.

You cultivate a strange fascination with violence in your posts. You seek to rationalize it, give it purpose, exalt and enshrine it. You make bizarre attempts to lionize angels as executioners in god's service. What's especially offputting is that you seem to wish for a violent, cruel afterlife, where you will finally get to perpetrate violence against others, justified by a mandate from god. And then you drag "the Carpenter" into it.

Taking a page from your own playbook, I will quote myself from a previous post, which you conveniently (but not surprisingly) ignored:


I'd like to point out that Jesus had a different reason for why we should all try not to become Hitler. Jesus advocated compassion. Compassion for a prostitute, for criminals, tax collectors...
Jesus used his final, dying breath to ask his father for compassion for the soldiers who were executing him.


In none of his parables did Jesus ever encourage violent retribution. Instead, he gave an example by risking his own safety to protect the condemned from the fury of a vindictive, wrathful crowd. A crowd, I presume, full of people like you. He also tried to get those very people to view their god as a loving and forgiving parent. You seem to have missed the significance of all this, which is why I maintain that you are very confused.

godnotgod hit the nail on the head: you suffer from a preoccupation with the "Hero Myth", which you perversely try to prop up with the Christian gospels, even if you contradict them in the process.

Not at all....

The Carpenter's parables speak of heaven...and what happens when you fail.

....'bound hand and foot, and thrown into the outer darkness for a weeping and gnashing of teeth'.....

...'it would be better for him that a millstone be tied around his neck and he be cast into the sea...'

That He walked into the temple, and whipped the crowd all the way out the door...does not surprise me.
When He spoke of heaven with lines drawn, doesn't surprise me.
That He preferred mercy when it was His to give...does not surprise me.

And it is still not my handiwork that many think of angels with sword in hand.

I am not confused.

 

[confused453]

However, you seem to think yourself a separate observer of the universe. That is not possible.

I seem to ask you for evidence to your claim, and you fail to provide them, evading with some nonsense text. Sorry, but I don't buy your snake oil.

 

[godnotgod]

Originally Posted by godnotgod
However, you seem to think yourself a separate observer of the universe. That is not possible.

I seem to ask you for evidence to your claim, and you fail to provide them, evading with some nonsense text. Sorry, but I don't buy your snake oil.

Either your brain is locked in 'Ignore' mode, or you just don't get it:

Mystical experiences cannot be proven via of Logic, Reason, or Analysis; they are outside the sphere of both systems of thought. That is why they are mystical in nature. Is that clear?

However, the mystical view can indeed be verified, but it requires that you go see for yourself without your baggage.

Now, if you were a true scholar, you would allow the possibility of a valid view outside of the confines of Science, instead of the rigid view you adhere to. Mystics fully accept Science. There is no problem. It's just that they don't accept it as the ONLY view. For them, it is only a piece of the overall picture. The mystical experience makes sense of the scientific data. So you see, while Science cannot encompass the mystical view, the mystical view can easily accommodate science. That alone should give you some sort of clue about your own flawed approach to reality, which is a pre-conditioned view at the onset. The mystical experience, on the other hand, involves a completely emptied mind, with no particular view about anything to muck things up.

How is the impossibility of your being a separate observer of the universe "nonsense text"? Do you think you are such an entity? If so, can you demonstrate how that is possible?

You failed to answer my previous question: Are you your history?

 

[Thief]

Either your brain is locked in 'Ignore' mode, or you just don't get it:

Same to you

Mystical experiences cannot be proven via of Logic, Reason, or Analysis; they are outside the sphere of both systems of thought. That is why they are mystical in nature. Is that clear?

Clear as mud. Without reason...that's what you get.

However, the mystical view can indeed be verified, but it requires that you go see for yourself without your baggage.

I have a good joke about baggage.

Now, if you were a true scholar, ? you would allow the possibility of a valid view outside of the confines of Science, instead of the rigid view you adhere to. Mystics fully accept Science. There is no problem. It's just that they don't accept it as the ONLY view. For them, it is only a piece of the overall picture. The mystical experience makes sense of the scientific data. So you see, while Science cannot encompass the mystical view, the mystical view can easily accommodate science. That alone should give you some sort of clue about your own flawed approach to reality, which is a pre-conditioned view at the onset. The mystical experience, on the other hand, involves a completely emptied mind, with no particular view about anything to muck things up.

This was good up to the point of an 'empty mind'.

How is the impossibility of your being a separate observer of the universe "nonsense text"? Do you think you are such an entity? If so, can you demonstrate how that is possible?

You failed to answer my previous question: Are you your history?

And yes we are our history.
You have history.
Without it...it is as if you were never born.

So far you seem to insist that an empty mind...is understanding.
That is about as convoluted and delusional as anyone can get.

Without your mind, you are a lump of meat sitting in front of a keyboard.
The moment you respond to this.....ALL of your previous posts are invalid.

 

[Looncall]

A gradual rise in temperature is not a continuum? The change when a dimmer switch is fully rotated from the off position in a totally dark room does not create a continuum?




Not sure, but I think its entropy



Not sure about a necessity, but it exists against a background. As I understand it, however, em energy always involves the interaction of negatively and positively charged particles.

NOTE: I am editing this answer now to tentatively state that, the opposite of em energy is matter, in keeping with the constancy laws of the universe as defined by Einstein, where E=mc2. For example, light is em energy that is converted, via photosynthesis, into chemical compounds.

Mere word salad and ignorance.

it's amazing how ignorance leads to confidence.

 

[PolyHedral]

Not sure, but I think its entropy

The electromagnetic field pervades the entire universe. Entropy is just a particle statistics things, and has nothing to do with the fundamental components of the universe.

Not sure about a necessity, but it exists against a background. As I understand it, however, em energy always involves the interaction of negatively and positively charged particles.

Photons, the particles that convey the electromagnetic force, are electrically neutral. I think they can be generated by uncharged particles interacting (with the other forces), but I'd have to check.

 

[godnotgod]

Mere word salad and ignorance.

it's amazing how ignorance leads to confidence.

It is ignorance itself that condemns without justification, and which says nothing. If you think you have a counter-argument to what I have stated, then come forth here and present your case. Otherwise, I will have to regard your comments as pure poppycock.

It is amazing how ignorance leads to snot-nosed condescendence.

 

[godnotgod]

The electromagnetic field pervades the entire universe. Entropy is just a particle statistics things, and has nothing to do with the fundamental components of the universe.

Photons, the particles that convey the electromagnetic force, are electrically neutral. I think they can be generated by uncharged particles interacting (with the other forces), but I'd have to check.

Light is electromagnetic energy, and em energy involves electrically charged particles, correct? So what happens that photons have no electrical charge?


Electromagnetic Radiation

Do you listen to the radio, watch TV, or use a microwave oven? All these devices make use of electromagnetic waves. Radio waves, microwaves, visible light, and x rays are all examples of electromagnetic waves that differ from each other in wavelength.

Electromagnetic waves are produced by the motion of electrically charged particles. These waves are also called "electromagnetic radiation" because they radiate from the electrically charged particles. They travel through empty space as well as through air and other substances.

http://www.lbl.gov/MicroWorlds/ALSTool/EMSpec/

 

[Looncall]

It is ignorance itself that condemns without justification, and which says nothing. If you think you have a counter-argument to what I have stated, then come forth here and present your case. Otherwise, I will have to regard your comments as pure poppycock.

It is amazing how ignorance leads to snot-nosed condescendence.

The problem is that you have seem to have no argument.You merely produce meaningless word combinations (word salad) and inaccuracies.

Mysticism is not evidence for anything except certain quirks of human psychology.

 

[godnotgod]

And yes we are our history.
You have history.
Without it...it is as if you were never born.

Your history consists of your set of life values from parents, educators, government, peers, etc. You are so and so from such and such town who went to such and such school and hold a degree in such and such and work at such and such company and are married to so and so. None of that existed at the time of your birth, and it all goes away when you die. None of that is who you are at core. Those are just accretions. You are not your history.

So far you seem to insist that an empty mind...is understanding.
That is about as convoluted and delusional as anyone can get.

That is NOT what I said! I said that an emptied mind is required to SEE without distortion from your conceptual mind. An emptied mind has no particular viewpoint, and so it can see things as they actually are, rather than through the filter of your personal views.

Without your mind, you are a lump of meat sitting in front of a keyboard.
The moment you respond to this.....ALL of your previous posts are invalid.

You don't need 'mind' in order to see and respond. Seeing is without thought, and does not need the agent of 'mind', which is an illusion.

 

[godnotgod]

The problem is that you have seem to have no argument.You merely produce meaningless word combinations (word salad) and inaccuracies.

Mysticism is not evidence for anything except certain quirks of human psychology.

You continue to make statements without backing anything up, conveniently labeling everything as 'word salad' with zero understanding of what it is you are labeling as such. Your last statement re: mysticism demonstrates just how ignorant you are. Now, if you want to criticize my argument, then produce some meaningful statements about them which shows why they are inaccurate and/or erroneous. Your mind-set seems to be in knee-jerk mode with the button frozen on the choice 'word salad'.

So once again, if you want to have a discussion instead of sitting back and targeting everything i say as 'word salad', then step forth into the light here and present your arguments. In other words, put up or Sh*******! as you are just an annoyance otherwise.

 

[Anatta]

Just to be a *****, I'd like to point out that Looncall's use of the term "word salad" is not entirely accurate here. This term usually refers to a symptom of mental disease known as schizophasia. I witnessed this once in a person with late-stage Alzheimer's disease. Here is an example of word salad:

"Sleepy prions pop angry racket sandwich, always right-side-up and sprinkle the air salty."


Always glad to help.

 

[Looncall]

Just to be a *****, I'd like to point out that Looncall's use of the term "word salad" is not entirely accurate here. This term usually refers to a symptom of mental disease known as schizophasia. I witnessed this once in a person with late-stage Alzheimer's disease. Here is an example of word salad:

"Sleepy prions pop angry racket sandwich, always right-side-up and sprinkle the air salty."


Always glad to help.

Any help is appreciated.

I would not like to make any fun of that kind of problem, though. My late father had what I suppose was mild dementia. That was heart-breaking enough.

What I had in mind was grammatically correct expressions that only appear to convey something (eg the famous square triangle). I find many expressions that come from mysticism have that flavour about them.

 

[confused453]

Mysticism is just another word for unknown, in religious/spiritual exaggerated language. Whatever is unknown, will be discovered eventually.

 

[Thief]

You don't need 'mind' in order to see and respond. Seeing is without thought, and does not need the agent of 'mind', which is an illusion.

To respond you need your mind.

The next thing you type....
will be 'you' responding as only 'you' can do.

None are so blind as those 'who' will not see.

There is no escaping the person you have become.
You became that person because of your history.

But if you insist....you can follow you body into the grave...
And there you will lose your mind.

No need to see it coming.

 

[godnotgod]

To respond you need your mind.

The next thing you type....
will be 'you' responding as only 'you' can do.

None are so blind as those 'who' will not see.

There is no escaping the person you have become.
You became that person because of your history.

But if you insist....you can follow you body into the grave...
And there you will lose your mind.

No need to see it coming.

Where is the agent of response called 'mind' or 'I'? No such 'responder' exists; there is only 'responding' itself, just as there is no 'river' that flows; there is only flowing water.

There is your true nature, which existed before your history, and will exist after your history dissolves away. Your true nature is who you are; your history is fiction.

If you don't understand that, can you tell me who that person was before his history began? Was he just an incoherent blob of jelly? If so, where did that blob of jelly learn the game of peek a boo, which he played with his parents without ever having been taught?

Why would anyone follow their body into the grave?

 

[godnotgod]

Mysticism is just another word for unknown, in religious/spiritual exaggerated language. Whatever is unknown, will be discovered eventually.

Mysticism is not factual knowledge, and cannot be accessed via Reason or Logic. It is not thinking. It is direct spiritual union with the Ultimate Reality within wherein observer and observed no longer exist, as dye is dissolved in water. Ultimate Reality will never be 'known' by Science or Religion or any other conceptual means, as all concepts of reality, including those of self and mind, must go in this direct experience of the eternal Mystery. The eternal Mystery cannot be so encapsulated by such means, just as the vast ocean can never be encapsulated by the word 'ocean'.

So please stop trying to reduce what you don't understand to insignificance, where it is 'nothing more than', or 'just another word for', just to make the unknown palatable/controllable for your limited rational mind.

The more you push against the door of the Mystery with your seeking mind, the tighter it will stay closed, because not only does the door open inwardly, there is no door there to begin with. Zennists call this 'door' the 'Gateless gate'.
*****

“You have been facing the wrong way.” You don’t find the courage to change by facing outward and looking for it anyplace outside. When we’re born the door opens just for a split second and we enter a room called daily awareness [ie; ordinary consciousness]. It’s all of the things we have learned about who we are, what we can do, what we can accomplish, what our goals and limitations are. [ie; our history]. However, it’s only one room in this house of potential human awareness.

The only way 99 percent of the people know how to get out of the room of daily awareness is to die. At death the door opens again, just for a split second, and out you go. We call this your life.
Most people spend their life pushing on the walls looking for a door that opens outward. A few people have an awareness, an instant awakening, an epiphany, and realize that the door to higher awareness, to other rooms in the house, opens inward.

You’ve got to step back and pull the door inward. You have to metaphorically turn yourself in such a way that you can face inward instead of outward. Instead of having to die in order to experience heightened levels of awareness, you can learn new ways of going outside the room of daily awareness and explore all the other rooms in the house of potential awareness that go beyond fear and beyond all limitations.
Wayne Dyer
*****

"The place wherein Thou art found unveiled is girt round with the coincidence of contradictions, and this is the wall of Paradise wherein Thou dost abide. The door whereof is guarded by the most proud spirit of Reason, and, unless he be vanquished, the way in will not lie open."
Nicholas of Cusa

 

[Thief]

Where is the agent of response called 'mind' or 'I'? No such 'responder' exists; there is only 'responding' itself, just as there is no 'river' that flows; there is only flowing water.

There is your true nature, which existed before your history, and will exist after your history dissolves away. Your true nature is who you are; your history is fiction.

If you don't understand that, can you tell me who that person was before his history began? Was he just an incoherent blob of jelly? If so, where did that blob of jelly learn the game of peek a boo, which he played with his parents without ever having been taught?

Why would anyone follow their body into the grave?

You were nothing before you were born.
Not even chemistry.

You can't get out of your body now.
What makes you think you will do so when you die?