The Debate of God.

[godnotgod]

I don't know, I simply see it as too costly to be played with.

But don't you see? It is precisely the stern, humorless God to which you object; the one who takes himself much too seriously and goes on a wild murderous rampage over the bite of an apple.

 

[Koldo]

The hiding and illusion-making that God does is not to deceive in order to harm, but to play. When you understand that, there is great appreciation.

...

It is not man that God is trying to hide from; it is himself. God is merely hiding from himself within all forms, including man. It is his game. And we are it.

Tas atvam asi
*****

The interesting part is that, it feels like, you want us to believe you actually have this sort of knowledge.

 

[godnotgod]

.... it is hardly a mind-blowing revelation that contingent being isn’t necessary!

Necessity/non-necessity is not an issue with being. I believe you mean 'existence'.

I was referring specifically to your exhorting people to ‘go see for themselves’. Where exactly would you have them go? This never-answered question is a crucial part of my dispute with you, which I shall be pursuing.

When the moon is pointed to, do you turn your attention to the moon, or to the pointing finger?

Is the pointing finger a doctrine to be believed in, so that looking at the moon becomes irrelevant, and one need only believe and have faith?

But if you spontaneously respond, and you turn to look at the moon, prior to your forming any thought about what you see, is there a subject/object? That is to say, does there exist the see-er of a purported object called 'moon', or is there only the act of 'moonseeing' itself, with no 'moon-see-er'?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

But don't you see? It is precisely the stern, humorless God to which you object; the one who takes himself much too seriously and goes on a wild murderous rampage over the bite of an apple.

Right, I don't think I've ever concealed that But.. so?

How is it I can be that being, if I object so strongly to his MO? Am i somehow self-criticizing? I could barely object more strongly, so, is this somehow a mental assessment exercise being performed on myself, from a distance? In your view, I mean.

 

[godnotgod]

The interesting part is that, it feels like, you want us to believe you actually have this sort of knowledge.

The interesting part is that, it feels like, you want us to believe you actually don't.

"Realization is getting rid of the delusion that you haven't realized."
Ramana Maharshi

 

[confused453]

How about cloning couple of Neanderthals, and asking them about the God/Gods? That could solve all the debates

 

[Koldo]

The interesting part is that, it feels like, you want us to believe you actually don't.

Yep, because i don't.

"Realization is getting rid of the delusion that you haven't realized."
Ramana Maharshi

"Realization is suspending your wishful thinking and confirmation bias when analyzing the world around you" - Koldo

 

[godnotgod]

Yep, because i don't.

"Realization is suspending your wishful thinking and confirmation bias when analyzing the world around you" - Koldo

Those being the realizations of an unrealized person, of course.

 

[Koldo]

Those being the realizations of an unrealized person, of course.

This being the realization of an unrealized person, of course.

 

[Thief]

And the debate is suppose to be about God....
And we now quibble about what we are willing to believe?

Wrong approach.

Might be easier...a lot easier...
To consider what God believes.

Lay the 'prove God'....'prove self'....arguments to threads that address those ideas.

 

[godnotgod]

This being the realization of an unrealized person, of course.

...and that which allows you to realize that being none other than your realized state.....of course!:slap:

 

[godnotgod]

Right, I don't think I've ever concealed that But.. so?

How is it I can be that being, if I object so strongly to his MO? Am i somehow self-criticizing? I could barely object more strongly, so, is this somehow a mental assessment exercise being performed on myself, from a distance? In your view, I mean.

As i said, there is the God of the Old Testament, the cruel one you object to, that is a concoction and projection of Jewish culture, and there is the God, or Infinite, or Absolute, or Ultimate Reality that you are an expression of. Your protest means you are sufficiently awakened to see through the facade of the concocted ruthless God of Law, Obedience, and strict Punishment or Reward. But don't misunderstand: we do possess an innate virtue, but it is not moralistic in terms of Good vs. Evil. We do have something to guide us, but it is not externally imposed, but rather comes from within, and that is both Law and Essence together, as a whole, which, together, constitute a more balanced view of life.

Generally speaking, those who subscribe to the external God of Law see man as basically evil who need God in order to become good. Those who see God as divine essence within see man as basically good, but spiritually asleep and in need of awakening and unfolding.

But if God is not the rigid Authoritarian who mercilessly punishes over minor infractions, then what other choice is there, other than a God that loves to play? And the basic game of play is that of Hide and Seek, in which God absolutely loves pretending that he is not who he is. This utter forgetfullness is what allows him to get involved in all sorts of fantasies, and that is the world as it exists at this moment, warts and all. That revelation allows us to accept the world as perfect, just as it is. If you think the world is flawed and make efforts to change it via of force, then you will only succeed in making matters worse. It is a paradox of our human existence.

 

[Thief]

As i said, there is the God of the Old Testament, the cruel one you object to, that is a concoction and projection of Jewish culture, and there is the God, or Infinite, or Absolute, or Ultimate Reality that you are an expression of. Your protest means you are sufficiently awakened to see through the facade of the concocted ruthless God of Law, Obedience, and strict Punishment or Reward. But don't misunderstand: we do possess an innate virtue, but it is not moralistic in terms of Good vs. Evil. We do have something to guide us, but it is not externally imposed, but rather comes from within, and that is both Law and Essence together, as a whole, which, together, constitute a more balanced view of life.

Generally speaking, those who subscribe to the external God of Law see man as basically evil who need God in order to become good. Those who see God as divine essence within see man as basically good, but spiritually asleep and in need of awakening and unfolding.

But if God is not the rigid Authoritarian who mercilessly punishes over minor infractions, then what other choice is there, other than a God that loves to play? And the basic game of play is that of Hide and Seek, in which God absolutely loves pretending that he is not who he is. This utter forgetfullness is what allows him to get involved in all sorts of fantasies, and that is the world as it exists at this moment, warts and all. That revelation allows us to accept the world as perfect, just as it is. If you think the world is flawed and make efforts to change it via of force, then you will only succeed in making matters worse. It is a paradox of our human existence.

Here you go....I quote myself...

So...we start with a Creator.
He has made a universe.
He would be First....THE First in mind and heart.
And alone (because He's First).

Setting spirit beside Himself (literally) He could talk to Himself.
However, there's not much to say to an echo.

The next step would be a blend...spirit and chemistry.

Faulted?....not really.
Chemistry has rules.
All chemistry eventually fails.

So, you were created to live forever?.....nay.
Not physically anyway.

Created to live in heaven?.....possibly.

But for heaven to be a place of peace....
Your mind and heart have to be 'set' to that situation.

To be a participant, greater abilities must be granted.
But if you can't be trusted to the least of things....
How then to be trusted with anything greater?

Lose your will?....just the random self seeking parts.
Lose your freedom?...only if you don't know how to behave yourself.

And of course, as we each stand before heaven....
We have everything to gain...and everything to lose.
(end quote)

You're attempting to drawn a line and then erase as fast as you can.
I notice 'you' are still using the pronoun 'you'.
Just can't help 'yourself'....can 'you'.

 

[confused453]

Here you go....I quote myself...

So...we start with a Creator.

How did that creator-being come to be?
Who or what gave that being the ability to create?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

As i said, there is the God of the Old Testament, the cruel one you object to, that is a concoction and projection of Jewish culture, and there is the God, or Infinite, or Absolute, or Ultimate Reality that you are an expression of. Your protest means you are sufficiently awakened to see through the facade of the concocted ruthless God of Law, Obedience, and strict Punishment or Reward. But don't misunderstand: we do possess an innate virtue, but it is not moralistic in terms of Good vs. Evil. We do have something to guide us, but it is not externally imposed, but rather comes from within, and that is both Law and Essence together, as a whole, which, together, constitute a more balanced view of life.

Generally speaking, those who subscribe to the external God of Law see man as basically evil who need God in order to become good. Those who see God as divine essence within see man as basically good, but spiritually asleep and in need of awakening and unfolding.

But if God is not the rigid Authoritarian who mercilessly punishes over minor infractions, then what other choice is there, other than a God that loves to play? And the basic game of play is that of Hide and Seek, in which God absolutely loves pretending that he is not who he is. This utter forgetfullness is what allows him to get involved in all sorts of fantasies, and that is the world as it exists at this moment, warts and all. That revelation allows us to accept the world as perfect, just as it is. If you think the world is flawed and make efforts to change it via of force, then you will only succeed in making matters worse. It is a paradox of our human existence.

What I am trying to communicate is that the thing God plays with are too vital to play with. We mortals have a different set of values, it seems, and they are not to be trifled with in the way he does. They are too important to mortal beings. His game is callously dangerous.

 

[Thief]

How did that creator-being come to be?
Who or what gave that being the ability to create?

An excellent question...
it falls to the category of 'proving God'.

But for this thread 'proving' is not required.
We are far into discussion and should already be resigned to discuss God
....as God.

Besides...if you've been reading my post work scattered about the forum
you would have seen it....
No photo...no fingerprint....no equation...no repeatable experiment...
no 'proof'.

You just have to think about it.

Perhaps you prefer the word 'if'.....?

'If' there is not god....your are dust headed for the grave....nothing more.
'If' there is a God....you have many things to consider.

Like two sides of a coin....chose....
Tails you lose and die an empty shell.
Heads you win....but you then have to think about it.

 

[Thief]

What I am trying to communicate is that the thing God plays with are too vital to play with. We mortals have a different set of values, it seems, and they are not to be trifled with in the way he does. They are too important to mortal beings. His game is callously dangerous.

This would have been good...however...
you have placed the trifles of Man...before heaven.

 

[godnotgod]

What I am trying to communicate is that the thing God plays with are too vital to play with. We mortals have a different set of values, it seems, and they are not to be trifled with in the way he does. They are too important to mortal beings. His game is callously dangerous.

Are you kidding? We, as humans, have poisoned our nest and are on the brink of vaporizing it, if not merely decimating the life-forms of the planet, and you call God's game of 'Hide and Seek' callously dangerous'? Roughly speaking, human beings are probably living at about 5% of their actual potential, mostly nurturing greed, nationalism, racism, warfare, etc. The key to realizing our true potential lies in the nurturing of world peace through Higher Consciousness. World peace is not merely the interlude between wars, but involves a complete transformation of the human mind resulting in a spiritually-awakened state of being. Once this awakening occurs, our new vision clearly reveals the true nature of reality that lies behind the illusion that is the world. But it is because we are deluded that we mistake the world as real, and act destructively, in the sense that we imagine it as an object of desire, and in pursuit of this illusion, we create the negative conditions we experience, which, in turn, continue to drive the cycle of cause and effect in the name of some concept of The Good, such as 'The Inquisition', or 'Manifest Destiny', and even 'World Peace'.

It seems to me that you are still responding negatively to the concept of the ruthless, sadistic God of the Old Testament, that is just an extreme egoic projection. This God is not real. When it became too rigid, a more compassionate balancing counterpart to the all-male God had to be concocted in the myths of Jesus and Mary. I think the key for you is to try to understand these anthropomorphic images of divine beings as principles within man's psyche, which, in some cases, are out of balance and manifest themselves externally as, in this case, a rigid, moral authoritarian. It is exactly for this reason that the mystical view is necessary, as it provides the required feminine essence to soften such a view.

And so, as humans, we first project the image of a ruthless God, and then proceed to emulate his approach in dealing with the world, rendering the 'callously dangerous game' none other than our own.

 

[Thief]

Are you kidding? We, as humans, have poisoned our nest and are on the brink of vaporizing it, if not merely decimating the life-forms of the planet, and you call God's game of 'Hide and Seek' callously dangerous'? Roughly speaking, human beings are probably living at about 5% of their actual potential, mostly nurturing greed, nationalism, racism, warfare, etc. The key to realizing our true potential lies in the nurturing of world peace through Higher Consciousness. World peace is not merely the interlude between wars, but involves a complete transformation of the human mind resulting in a spiritually-awakened state of being. Once this awakening occurs, our new vision clearly reveals the true nature of reality that lies behind the illusion that is the world. But it is because we are deluded that we mistake the world as real, and act destructively, in the sense that we imagine it as an object of desire, and in pursuit of this illusion, we create the negative conditions we experience, which, in turn, continue to drive the cycle of cause and effect in the name of some concept of The Good, such as 'The Inquisition', or 'Manifest Destiny', and even 'World Peace'.

It seems to me that you are still responding negatively to the concept of the ruthless, sadistic God of the Old Testament, that is just an extreme egoic projection. This God is not real. When it became too rigid, a more compassionate balancing counterpart to the all-male God had to be concocted in the myths of Jesus and Mary. I think the key for you is to try to understand these anthropomorphic images of divine beings as principles within man's psyche, which, in some cases, are out of balance and manifest themselves externally as, in this case, a rigid, moral authoritarian. It is exactly for this reason that the mystical view is necessary, as it provides the required feminine essence to soften such a view.

And so, as humans, we first project the image of a ruthless God, and then proceed to emulate his approach in dealing with the world, rendering the 'callously dangerous game' none other than our own.

And YOUR God is whom?
And He has no line to draw....no discipline to offer?

Higher levels of awareness....and no conflict with Man?

No form of discipline walks this earth without objection.

Nurture this planet?...while money is in the lead?...won't happen.
Ask the spoilers, if money is real and they will say so.
Ask them to adopt your 'God' of higher awareness and they will crucify you.

You are of this world or the next.
This world does love it's own.
Maybe you don't belong here.

But with all that pronouncement of illusion.....
I don't think you can pull it together.

If this life is an illusion...what waits for you?...besides a grave?

 

[godnotgod]

You are of this world or the next....

If this life is an illusion...what waits for you?...besides a grave?

There is no 'next' world that anyone knows of or has ever gone to and returned from to tell the tale; there is only THIS world right under your very nose that we know of for certain. The 'next' world is none other than 'this' world. All you need do is to arrive. That is the only thing that 'waits for you'.

So when are you going to get off the merry go round, Thief, and arrive so that you can begin living your new life here on Paradise Earth?

Next stop: The Kingdom of God Within, Here, Now.:yes: