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The Debate of God.

godnotgod

Thou art That
I asked you what is true of the world and not what you believe to be true!

What is true of the world is that it exists.....

That is your dogmatic delusion.

It 'exists' as illusion, against the background, or field, of the Absolute, which is not a belief, but an observation.

The illusion is of such a character, that even the most intelligent amongst us are fooled into believing it to be real, to exist, just as you are fooled.

Show me the reference against which you determine the world to 'exist'.

I also stated that what is true of the world is that it is not made up of separate things. That is true. If you think it is made up of separate things, provide an example. As far as I know, we live in what is understood to be a uni-verse, 'uni' meaning 'one' and therefore, undivided.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
That is your dogmatic delusion.

It 'exists' as illusion, against the background, or field, of the Absolute, which is not a belief, but an observation.

The illusion is of such a character, that even the most intelligent amongst us are fooled into believing it to be real, to exist, just as you are fooled.

Show me the reference against which you determine the world to 'exist'.

I also stated that what is true of the world is that it is not made up of separate things. That is true. If you think it is made up of separate things, provide an example. As far as I know, we live in what is understood to be a uni-verse, 'uni' meaning 'one' and therefore, undivided.

Get it right...universe....as in one WORD....

God is the Creator...not the background.
And you are not God.....you are separate.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Get it right...universe....as in one WORD....

God is the Creator...not the background.
And you are not God.....you are separate.

I actually think that with Godnotgod's philosophy
"not god" and "are god" fuse together:
Or, Dissolve apart. The relationship of Duality
Ceases to be or not be.
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
If a being is truly Supreme and therefore Absolute, it is neither necessary, nor not-necessary, as such a being is, by definition, beyond the constraints of duality. Since duality is purely a product of conceptual thought, and does not exist perse in actual reality, there is only the Absolute, and the uni-verse is IT. In other words, there is only one Reality, but, (yes, MOST of mankind, unfortunately) sees the Absolute through the filter of the conceptual mind, resulting in the dualistic view peculiar to most, including you, as your post here clearly demonstrates.


The terms ‘Absolute’ and ‘Reality’ are also the product of thought, where the obverse is implied conceptually just as it is with ‘necessity’. But if you wish to object that it is only the ‘convention’ then I have to inform you that it is a convention that applies equally to the Supreme Being and in exactly the same way. And to question whether the Supreme Being can be ‘truly’ such is incoherent when truth is necessarily entailed by the term. Only propositions concerning the entity are subject to truth or falsehood. And dualism is both evident and required in your own argument; in fact without it you have no argument!

And are you really saying to me, with a straight face, that ‘most of humankind is conditioned’, with the oblique implication that some are unconditioned?[/QUOTE]
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
You are being much too literal. There are no 'things'. To 'see things as they are' is to see into the true nature of reality, that is to say, to see that what we ordinarily think to be reality, is not. To 'see things as they are' is simply to see without the filter of the rational mind, before it attempts to explain what is seen.

Here you are again making unfounded statements based upon a belief that you’ve taken up vicariously. Okay so tell me what you see before the rational mind attempts to explain it? And how do you know it is true reality? These are fair and honest questions.


'Things' is used purely as a matter of convention.

We don’t need to split hairs here because I really don’t mind what you call it: I’m simply asking what is it that you are supposing to be ‘true reality?’ And please, no parables, quoted text or open-ended generalisations.
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
That is your dogmatic delusion.

Hardly! My argument is that the contingent world need not exist at all. Compare that with your asserted belief, an adamant claim to the truth, that there is an eternal, infinite world and that this world can be seen by error-prone, finite, contingent beings. Now that is an accurate example of dogmatism by any standards.


It 'exists' as illusion, against the background, or field, of the Absolute, which is not a belief, but an observation.

The world (whatever it is) exists, which is entirely in accordance with your own argument. ‘Nothing exists’ is an absurdity in both senses. And if the ‘Absolute’ is an observation then please recount for us what was observed?


The illusion is of such a character, that even the most intelligent amongst us are fooled into believing it to be real, to exist, just as you are fooled.

‘Fooled into believing’ is a phrase that can be justly applied to those who are inclined or disposed towards faith systems or to otherworldly notions. Studies have shown that intelligence has no bearing on belief and folk from all walks of life will suspend reason where it conflicts with their faith. A good example is the Problem of Evil, where painfully convoluted arguments have been put up by some of the greatest minds in an attempt to unseat the contradiction, when in ordinary life they would have treated similar illogical apologetics with scorn and derision. I think there can be little doubt that religion and belief systems have a deep-seated root in the human psyche, as a seed sown in the early years, or possibly due to trauma experienced in later life.


Show me the reference against which you determine the world to 'exist'.

Your own argument, and any/all experience (transcendental).


I also stated that what is true of the world is that it is not made up of separate things. That is true. If you think it is made up of separate things, provide an example. As far as I know, we live in what is understood to be a uni-verse, 'uni' meaning 'one' and therefore, undivided.

The question was: 'What is true of the world that is not available from facts about the world?' In case you’re not understanding me, I’m asking you what is true (ie self-evident) of the world, the ‘uni-verse’ or whatever you want to call it, without referring to the factual world.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
The question was: 'What is true of the world that is not available from facts about the world?' In case you’re not understanding me, I’m asking you what is true (ie self-evident) of the world, the ‘uni-verse’ or whatever you want to call it, without referring to the factual world.

In case your not understanding, I'm telling you, once again, that what is true of the world that is not available from facts about the world is that it is not made up of separate things and that it is illusory, both of which are understood without factual knowledge, and which contradicts factual knowledge. Time, space, and causation are also seen as 'facts', but in reality, do not actually exist. They are merely conceptual overlays. The true nature of the world cannot be known via 'facts', all of which are products of the rational mind. The true nature of reality is beyond fact and reason, although fact and reason are useful tools in navigating the world we live in. The lines of longitude and latitude, which we call 'facts', superimposed upon the earth, help us know our relationship to other points on those lines, but they are not real. We have accumulated a body of knowledge called 'facts' about such things as gravity, light, etc., but we still do not know what these phenomena actually ARE. We thought we had facts about atoms, but as it turns out, all our so-called facts which came to us via classical science have been upturned by Quantum Mechanics. The more 'facts' we accumulate about the world the less we actually understand about it's true nature. Reason, logic, analysis, and all manner of conceptual thought cannot pierce through this mystery. None of it. It must all go first before any insight can be gained, unless, of course, we are satisfied with mere factual knowledge.

We say 'river', and call river a fact about something as if it were something concrete, but in reality, no such thing exists; there is only 'flowingwater'.

In short, the finite cannot encapsulate the Infinite.

Did I forget to include 'pondfrogleapsplash', and that eternal finger pointing to the moon?
 
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PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic
In case your not understanding, I'm telling you, once again, that what is true of the world that is not available from facts about the world is that it is not made up of separate things and that it is illusory, both of which are understood without factual knowledge, and which contradicts factual knowledge. Time, space, and causation are also seen as 'facts', but in reality, do not actually exist.
...As explained by some rather sketchy upgrades to quantum theory. :cool: (That is, a few people have tried to build models of reality where space and time arise out of some other interaction. The universal wavefunction is a common, but rarely considered, aspect of known, mainstream quantum theory.)
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Originally Posted by godnotgod
Show me the reference against which you determine the world to 'exist'.

Your own argument, and any/all experience (transcendental).

But my argument, including, or especially due to, transcendental experience, is that it does not exist (actually, it neither exists, nor not-exists, both being merely conceptual descriptions).

I understand you to be saying that the world has real, concrete existence, and am therefore asking for the reference you are using to determine that.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I actually think that with Godnotgod's philosophy
"not god" and "are god" fuse together:
Or, Dissolve apart. The relationship of Duality
Ceases to be or not be.

That being true, what is also the case, is that the moment we give a name to the Infinite, it is not that name. As Maharishi Mahesh Yogi always used to say:

"The description is not the described"
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
But my argument, including, or especially due to, transcendental experience, is that it does not exist (actually, it neither exists, nor not-exists, both being merely conceptual descriptions).

I understand you to be saying that the world has real, concrete existence, and am therefore asking for the reference you are using to determine that.

Try throwing your head on a near by block wall.

Try stepping off a high place to see if you're God enough to not die.

Really?
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Here you are again making unfounded statements based upon a belief that you’ve taken up vicariously. Okay so tell me what you see before the rational mind attempts to explain it? And how do you know it is true reality? These are fair and honest questions.

What you 'see' is that there are no separate 'things' apart from the observer, as our ordinary, conditioned mind tells us there are. How do we know that is true reality? Because there is nothing between the observer and the observed to distort vision. There are no concepts, beliefs, opinions, thought, about what we see to get in the way. We, ourselves, are true reality itself, or shall we simply say, 'reality', as there is no 'other'.

I like the example of what 'river' is. Our conditioned mind tells us it is a real 'thing'; our unconditioned mind shows us only the action of waterflow.


1st observer: 'the flag is moving'
2nd observer: 'wrong. the wind is moving'
3rd observer: 'wrong! flag and wind both are moving!'
passerby: 'your minds are moving!'
:D
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
Try throwing your head on a near by block wall.

Try stepping off a high place to see if you're God enough to not die.

Really?

How does any of that prove existence? Perhaps you are merely dreaming of throwing your head on a near by block wall, or stepping off a high place to see if you're God enough to not die.

Have you considered waking up to know the difference between reality and illusion?

If you awaken into true reality, there would be no need of attempting such silliness in order to 'prove' anything, because you would know.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
How does any of that prove existence? Perhaps you are merely dreaming of throwing your head on a near by block wall, or stepping off a high place to see if you're God enough to not die.

Have you considered waking up to know the difference between reality and illusion?

If you awaken into true reality, there would be no need of attempting such silliness in order to 'prove' anything, because you would know.

You have quoted the Carpenter on previous occasion.
Now go back to His word and see how He dealt with stepping off
a high drop.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
You have quoted the Carpenter on previous occasion.
Now go back to His word and see how He dealt with stepping off
a high drop.

The issue at hand is the illusory nature of the world. What are you trying to say, or what do you think Jesus is saying about it?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
The issue at hand is the illusory nature of the world. What are you trying to say, or what do you think Jesus is saying about it?

This issue at hand is....God.

So far your approach to labels is to tear them all off.
Nothing is real.

This approach is for dead spirits.
They can't speak anyway.
And have nothing to say even if they could.
might as well be talking to a rock.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
This issue at hand is....God.

So far your approach to labels is to tear them all off.
Nothing is real.

This approach is for dead spirits.
They can't speak anyway.
And have nothing to say even if they could.
might as well be talking to a rock.

You should communicate with rocks; you may un-learn something.

Labels don't make things real; they make things unreal. Removing them frees that which is labeled so that it can simply be what it is.

So, can you answer the question about Jesus or not?
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Zen Koans* deal with the absolute and the relative. What is the absolute and what
is the relative in the koan 'Mu'?

Generally, the one who asks the question asks from the point of view of the relative, and the Zen master’s response is usually couched in terms of the absolute. So the question, “Does a dog have Buddha Nature?” can be a relative question. And the answer, “Mu” is the absolute.

Why does Zhaozhou give different answers to the same question?
Why does he say, “Mu,” or “No,” at one point and, “U,” or “Yes” at another?
Are both “Mu” and “U” absolute? Here we must look carefully at the text.
Zhaozhou does not say, “A dog does not have Buddha Nature.” Nor does he
say, “A dog has Buddha Nature.” He says, “Mu.” He says, “U.” His response
to the question in each case is one word. The absolute, “No” and the
absolute, “Yes.”

In Zen there are no opposites. There is no duality. The
formula is found in the “Heart Sutra.” :

Form is emptiness
Emptiness is form
Form is contained in emptiness,
emptiness is contained in form.
Form interpenetrates emptiness,
emptiness interpenetrates form.

Good is contained in evil,
evil is contained in good.
Good interpenetrates evil,
evil interpenetrates good.

Light is contained in darkness,
darkness is contained in light.
Light interpenetrates darkness,
darkness interpenetrates light.

Mu interpenetrates U,
U interpenetrates Mu.
Yes interpenetrates No,
No interpenetrates Yes.

In the realm of the absolute, Yes and No
are the same, yet different.

In the realm of the absolute,
all experience is Yes and
all experience is No.

In the realm of the absolute,
everything is contained.

In the realm of the absolute,
there is nothing to be contained,
and there is no container.

There is no dog,
No monk,
No Zhaozhou,
No Buddha Nature!
No Mu.**

Mu.

******

http://www.treetopzencenter.org/Reflections on the Wumenkuan.pdf

*koans: a riddle presented in non-logical terms designed to short-circuit the rational mind, thereby triggering satori, or enlightenment, eg: "What is the sound of one hand clapping?"

**Regarding this passage, there is a Zen story that goes like this:

Anger

When the Tesshu, a master of Zen, calligraphy and swordsmanship, was a young man he called on the Zen master Dokuon. Wishing to impress Dokuon he said, “The mind, the Buddha, and all sentient beings after all do not exist. The true nature of phenomenon is emptiness. There is no realisation, no delusion, no sagacity, no mediocrity, nothing to give and nothing to receive.

Dokuon promptly hit him with a bamboo stick. Tesshu became quite furious.

Dokuon said quietly: “If nothing exists, where did this anger come from?”
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
You should communicate with rocks; you may un-learn something.

Labels don't make things real; they make things unreal. Removing them frees that which is labeled so that it can simply be what it is.

So, can you answer the question about Jesus or not?

My post about the Carpenter had an obvious point.
And you suggest I go talk to rocks.....

NOW the full extent of your intellect is revealed.

...like a dead leaf on water.
 
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