The Debate of God.

[waitasec]

While that is true about learning, Enlightenment is not learning, though there are different stages. One would not claim 'full blown Enlightenment' if one were in transition. Maybe he can clarify his statement. 'Full blown' implies something called 'Instant Enlightenment'.

i see what you mean
but for myself i don't see enlightenment anymore important than finally reaching one of those "ah ha" moments..which is learning something, gaining or expanding ones perspective

perhaps the full blown enlightenment, from my personal experience, is a complete 180 in perspective which made my old POV something to learn from as in to never being able to see the image in my head the same way ever again

 

[godnotgod]

i see what you mean
but for myself i don't see enlightenment anymore important than finally reaching one of those "ah ha" moments..which is learning something, gaining or expanding ones perspective

perhaps the full blown enlightenment, from my personal experience, is a complete 180 in perspective which made my old POV something to learn from as in to never being able to see the image in my head the same way ever again

An 'ah ha' moment is an epiphany about something in particular;

Enlightenment is about nothing in particular; it is the realization of things as they actually are*; about the true underlying nature of reality and of one's own true nature.

*or, as one Zen Master used to say: 'things as it is'

 

[Heathen Hammer]

And then somehow you would not be a tyrant?
What would be your standard of grace?

Nope. There would be no need. I would be immediately available and obvious to all, and the world would not be a death trap nor would my children be soiled by my anger. There would be no mystery about it all, and a karmic cycle of lives would allow humans to live however they want, and not fear some eternal torture from me.

Super rough outline.

 

[godnotgod]

Nope. There would be no need. I would be immediately available and obvious to all, and the world would not be a death trap nor would my children be soiled by my anger. There would be no mystery about it all, and a karmic cycle of lives would allow humans to live however they want, and not fear some eternal torture from me.

Super rough outline.

Our new God, HH, has it all figured out folks. Perhaps he will soon be unveiling his new Master Plan. Maybe he might consider disguising himself within his own creation, and work from the inside out. I would advise him to take great care in revealing his true nature to man, however, as he might run into something like this:

God's Big Hat

There was a god who knew how men and women love to believe things to be true and make clubs and religions and political systems with the people who agree with them. They just love to make something out of nothing and then write its name on a big banner and march down the street waving it and yelling and screaming, only to have people who believe the opposite come toward them with their banner, yelling and screaming...

This god decided to try to prove a point about the human condition so that people might, in seeing the absurdity of it, have a good laugh.

He constructed a big hat divided right down the middle, the left side of which was brilliant blue and the right side flaming red. Then he went to a place where many people were working in the fields on the left side of a road and many other people were working in the fields on the right side of the road.

There the god manifested in all his glory; no one could miss him. Big and radiant, wearing his hat, he walked straight down the road. All the people on the right side of the road dropped their hoes and looked up at this god; all the people on the left side of the road did the same. Everybody was amazed.

Then he disappeared.

Everyone shouted, "We saw God! We saw God!" They were all full of joy, until someone on the left said, "There he was in all his radiance and in his red hat!" And people on the right said, "No, he had on a blue hat." This disagreement escalated until the people built walls and began to throw stones at each other.

Then the god appeared again. This time he walked in the other direction and then disappeared. Now all the people looked at each other and the ones on the right said, "Ah, you were right, he did have on a red hat. We're sorry, we just saw incorrectly. You were right and we were wrong."

The ones on the other side said, "No, no. You were right. We were wrong." At this point they didn't know whether to fight or to make friends. Most of them were completely puzzled by the situation.

Then the god appeared again. This time he stood in the middle and he turned to the left and then he turned to the right, and everyone started to laugh.


Quoted in "The Wisdom of No Escape" -by Pema Chodron

(I can only hope that our new God, HH, is most merciful, and will limit sentencing me to the stockades for my insolence, LOL)

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I do have it all figured out. Does this intimidate you, that you must mock?

I see. Since you look at the world as all illusion, I guess a world where everything is open and defined to you would be a bit intimidating; a bit too real.

Your story was interesting but it seemed to feature a capricious God; Im not like that. Also, he is revealing himself in a world like ours, where 1. he's always been hidden and 2. where his creations were flawed. My world would not be this way. Essentially, you all never would have been entrapped in the Garden; you'd all still be there, but it would be the entirety of the Earth.

 

[godnotgod]

I do have it all figured out. Does this intimidate you, that you must mock?

I see. Since you look at the world as all illusion, I guess a world where everything is open and defined to you would be a bit intimidating; a bit too real.

Your story was interesting but it seemed to feature a capricious God; Im not like that. Also, he is revealing himself in a world like ours, where 1. he's always been hidden and 2. where his creations were flawed. My world would not be this way. Essentially, you all never would have been entrapped in the Garden; you'd all still be there, but it would be the entirety of the Earth.

My goodness! So you are a God who takes himself seriously, do you? My! We humans might have to SIN a bit in order to take off that glaring edge!

In your Master Plan, what have you in store as play? Or,...er...are we not allowed to play...uh...and how about YOU? When do YOU play? Or is it:

"All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy!"

Heeeeeerrrreeesss JOHNNY!

 

[godnotgod]

I do have it all figured out. Does this intimidate you, that you must mock?

Oh, no, m'Lord! Just having a bit of fun at your expense, knowing that you are a most tolerant and merciful God.

I see. Since you look at the world as all illusion, I guess a world where everything is open and defined to you would be a bit intimidating; a bit too real.

We humans tend to get bored by such things. We like a few mysteries to pique our interest, and make things exciting and adventurous.

Your story was interesting but it seemed to feature a capricious God; Im not like that. Also, he is revealing himself in a world like ours, where 1. he's always been hidden and 2. where his creations were flawed. My world would not be this way. Essentially, you all never would have been entrapped in the Garden; you'd all still be there, but it would be the entirety of the Earth.

I see. So the world is flawed and you want to 'fix' it. Are you sure the flaw is not in your own mind, m'Lord? Just sayin', you know!

 

[godnotgod]

Gee. In HH's Perfect World, where nothing is a mystery, where nothing is hidden, babies will be skewered for their natural tendency to play 'Peek-A-Boo'. Why, already HH has sent the Insolent Ones to the Stockades as an example to the rest.

Why, that Evil Peek-A-Boo Gene will have to be exterminated worldwide in every quarter to stamp out any whiff of The Unknown and The Hiding.

Our new God, HH, vill not tolerate such nonsense!

You vill all obey. Uddervise, ve haff vays of mekkink you talk!

 

[Heathen Hammer]

My goodness! So you are a God who takes himself seriously, do you? My! We humans might have to SIN a bit in order to take off that glaring edge!

Why would you want a sin/behave system? Especially since it winds up being behave/behead... Sin implies the inherent flaw in creation which goes along with the Abrahamic tale. An endemic, unavoidable flaw in each living being. Why don't you just drop the reference? There would be no correlating action. Like I said, you would not be 'my flawed creation' as Jehovah thinks.

I simply don't find a punish/reward system to be useful. And certainly not moral. I would prefer a learning system. I would rather not duplicate the very thing I find reprehensible in someone else's idea; what's the point? I don't want to imitate what I dislike.

Oh, no, m'Lord! Just having a bit of fun at your expense, knowing that you are a most tolerant and merciful God.

Hmph! Mehinks you'll be a squirrel in your next go-around then, or maybe one of those apes that has the huge red butt.

We humans tend to get bored by such things. We like a few mysteries to pique our interest, and make things exciting and adventurous.

The universe is and would be quite interesting. Especially with a bit of tinkering.

I see. So the world is flawed and you want to 'fix' it. Are you sure the flaw is not in your own mind, m'Lord? Just sayin', you know!

Yes, I am sure. We have already glossed over how the Abrahamic system in some form or another went awry right at the outset and everyone born since is steeped in the stain of sin.

Edit this idea out; the 2e rules will be much different.

 

[godnotgod]

I'm happy that you've found or created a theology which pleases you. I am only bothered that you seem to assume it is true in some sense transcending your own personal opinion.

There is a way of looking at things that is impersonal and universal, rather than personal and specific.

Look within for the answer to your question. Try to understand what it is about Enlightenment, compared to the IPU, which makes people take it far more seriously. Both are beliefs in something which cannot be demonstrated as true.

You obviously think you are mirroring what you deem an erroneous position, but it is your analogy that is erroneous. While the afterlife and the IPU cannot be so demonstrated, states of Higher Consciousness can indeed be so demonstrated and verified in this here and now. People have been doing it for centuries. But that is not the issue. There is something distinct about belief in the afterlife compared to that of the IPU or the enlightenment experience, that makes for all the difference in the world, but you seem not to be getting it.

Look within yourself if you will understand others...

Then why is it that you fail to understand what I am trying to tell you, and only put up walls?

When our reflections outrage us, I think there could be a problem within ourselves.

True, but I am not outraged. I simply do not accept you in the capacity you see yourself in, as my teacher. You are not my teacher, OK?

Yes, yes.... you have told me that such evidence is invisible to you. No need to repeat.

No, that's not what I said. I said that there is no evidence, period.

Oh, my.
Yeah... like Buddhism. But not to despair. I have come to bring all primitive, monkey-minded religions up to date.

You are welcome to question me as you please.

You have unfortunately missed the point, which is that 'monkey mind' does not refer to a level of intelligence, but to the fact that monkeys have a tendency to jump about, just like the thinking mind. The idea is to subdue this mental jumping about which will allow one to see things as they are.

How is Buddhism like Christianity in terms of a focus on the flesh? Buddhism has consistently stated that the body is an illusion, while Christianity places such importance on it to the extent that it will be resurrected and rejoined with their appropriate souls and live forever in Heaven or suffer forever in Hell. It's the way a child sees it.

 

[Thief]

Nope. There would be no need. I would be immediately available and obvious to all, and the world would not be a death trap nor would my children be soiled by my anger. There would be no mystery about it all, and a karmic cycle of lives would allow humans to live however they want, and not fear some eternal torture from me.

Super rough outline.

And when your children behave badly.....
to the extent that such practice is corruption?

I suppose to avoid being a tyrant...you might impose mind control?

Can't see that some things just need to die?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

And when your children behave badly.....
to the extent that such practice is corruption?

I suppose to avoid being a tyrant...you might impose mind control?

Can't see that some things just need to die?

No

I see how the flawed system translates well for some individuals, and that they demand such horrible control; then want to call it 'love'.

But I am not like them.

When children behave badly, it's the fault of the parent.
I however, am a better parent.

 

[godnotgod]

Why would you want a sin/behave system? Especially since it winds up being behave/behead... Sin implies the inherent flaw in creation which goes along with the Abrahamic tale. An endemic, unavoidable flaw in each living being. Why don't you just drop the reference? There would be no correlating action. Like I said, you would not be 'my flawed creation' as Jehovah thinks.

I simply don't find a punish/reward system to be useful. And certainly not moral. I would prefer a learning system. I would rather not duplicate the very thing I find reprehensible in someone else's idea; what's the point? I don't want to imitate what I dislike.

Hmph! Mehinks you'll be a squirrel in your next go-around then, or maybe one of those apes that has the huge red butt.

The universe is and would be quite interesting. Especially with a bit of tinkering.

Tinkering, like, for example, a squirrel with a big red butt? Lovely!

Yes, I am sure. We have already glossed over how the Abrahamic system in some form or another went awry right at the outset and everyone born since is steeped in the stain of sin.

Sin is not the problem; ignorance is. It is not that the Abrahamic system went awry, it is that our vision became distorted. We need vision correction, not a new world, or a new God.

Edit this idea out; the 2e rules will be much different.

But, m'Lord, there is something you are missing, and are jumping to conclusions, in wanting to trash the world as it has been created, and start all over again. The flaw is not in the world, but in our vision of it. Work on correcting one's flawed vision (even when, or especially when, one is convinced that it is without flaw) and I guarantee that you will see the world as perfect just as it is, warts and all, in this very moment, and instead of imposing a new world, you will have a big belly laugh just like merry old King Cole. With your new vision, you will pierce the facade that the world is presenting to you, and you will know it as your own mind, because, m'Lord, it is none other than YOU. In transforming yourself, you will transform the world, and without bloodshed, m'Lord.

The history of the world is filled with characters who rolled up their sleeves and took the bull by the horns in order to 'change the world' to their own ideal design. The result is the sorry state of affairs we now see. Anything you do, no matter how noble you deem it to be, will only create ripples in the world. If you want to be a solution, move about without disturbing a single dust mote. Just shine your light on the world without interfering in it.
*****
A truly good man is not aware of his goodness,
And is therefore good.
A foolish man tries to be good,
And is therefore not good.

A truly good man does nothing,
Yet nothing is left undone.
A foolish man is always doing,
Yet much remains to be done

When a truly kind man does something, he leaves nothing undone.
When a just man does something, he leaves a great deal to be done.
When a disciplinarian does something and no one responds,
He rolls up his sleeves in an attempt to enforce order

Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is kindness.
When kindness is lost, there is justice.
When justice is lost, there is ritual.
Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of confusion.
Knowledge of the future is only a flowery trapping of the Tao.
It is the beginning of folly.

Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real
and not what is on the surface,
On the fruit and not the flower,
Therefore accept the one and reject the other.

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 38

 

[Thief]

No

I see how the flawed system translates well for some individuals, and that they demand such horrible control; then want to call it 'love'.

But I am not like them.

When children behave badly, it's the fault of the parent.
I however, am a better parent.

Do the upgrade....pretend your God....you have the ability...

Now..
See Man behaving too much like an animal.
Send a prophet.
They kill him.
Send another....he dies too.

The corruption continues and the spirit of Man is such he hardly survives his own dying.
And when he does his corrupted spirit cannot abide in peace.

Put him out of his misery as he stands in spirit?......could be.
Stop the corruption on earth and hope things get better?....

Oh but then, there's all this nay saying going about.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Thief, I don't think you read and comprehend.

I already stated I would NOT follow the broken Abrahamic model.

I don't copy other Gods' mistakes.



Seriously what is wrong with you?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

But, m'Lord, there is something you are missing, and are jumping to conclusions, in wanting to trash the world as it has been created, and start all over again. The flaw is not in the world, but in our vision of it.

That is one flaw I already stated I would correct

 

[Heathen Hammer]

We need vision correction,... or a new God.

Your prayer would be answered.

You're welcome.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

The history of the world is filled with characters who rolled up their sleeves and took the bull by the horns in order to 'change the world' to their own ideal design. The result is the sorry state of affairs we now see. Anything you do, no matter how noble you deem it to be, will only create ripples in the world. If you want to be a solution, move about without disturbing a single dust mote. Just shine your light on the world without interfering in it.

And just to be clear...


By now you should be understanding that I am responding as if the Christian idiom is correct. In reality I don't believe this at all. I am simply replying in the abstract to this specific audience. The Christian perspective is presented and I boldly state, "I can do it much better".

I do not believe the world is flawed at all. Because I know that the Christian God is not in charge. The world was not made by him. It is not inherently flawed because of some mythical action in some mythical primaeval Garden by some first couple. Sin is not universal.

However, as we have already clashed over, I also do not believe this is all an illusion.

Be that as it may, at the end of your statement there above you say that in order to change things, I would have to move through the world without touching anything. This makes no sense; if the hope and point, is to change the wor5ld for the better, then by default one MUST affect the world. By default light shines ONTO something. So in a way you are making a plea for something while simultaneously disallowing the result to happen.

Nothing we can ever do, can fail to touch the world. We are all enclosed in a web of Wyrd. We make those ripples no matter what we do. Therefore, ride those waves; you cannot dam up the sea.

 

[waitasec]

An 'ah ha' moment is an epiphany about something in particular;

Enlightenment is about nothing in particular; it is the realization of things as they actually are*; about the true underlying nature of reality and of one's own true nature.

*or, as one Zen Master used to say: 'things as it is'

everything all at once?

 

[godnotgod]

.... you say that in order to change things, I would have to move through the world without touching anything. This makes no sense; if the hope and point, is to change the world for the better, then by default one MUST affect the world. By default light shines ONTO something. So in a way you are making a plea for something while simultaneously disallowing the result to happen.

YOU are the world.