The Debate of God.

[godnotgod]

Perhaps enlightenment is maya.

I don't think so. Enlightenment is knowing what maya is; delusion is thinking maya is reality.
[/quote]

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Then the world is not comprised of people.

No correlation

'The world', in what context?

 

[godnotgod]

Quote:
You obviously think you are mirroring what you deem an erroneous position, but it is your analogy that is erroneous. While the afterlife and the IPU cannot be so demonstrated, states of Higher Consciousness can indeed be so demonstrated and verified in this here and now. People have been doing it for centuries.

Then why have I never seen this verification? Why not simply offer your proof, here and now, rather than claiming that it exists elsewhere?

I never said there was proof. I said the experience is verifiable. You claim to be enlightened. To realize one's own enlightenment is to verify that enlightenment is a fact of life.

 

[godnotgod]

No correlation

'The world', in what context?

In the context that the world is made up of people. You are the world. You are a microcosm of society. If you want to change the world, start by making the change within yourself first. That is the way to transform the world without interfering in the world.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I am a microcosm of society only as an abstract bit of prose, not in reality. In fact, in reality I am not even really a microcosm, as I hold most of my fellows in contempt.

What makes you think I haven't already changed myself. I do not need to change internally. I am fine the way I am. The majority of other people definitely need improving, though.

And no, still; my changing internally still affects the world, as I am an integrated part of it via Wyrd. You keep proposing some sort of isolation that simply isn't real.

 

[godnotgod]

Once upon a time the Buddha wandered into a kindergarten class, just to be there. But the k-garten teacher, being a k-garten teacher, mistook the Buddha for just another 5-year-old student and began to include the Buddha in his lectures. The Buddha smiled. The teacher insisted that the Buddha recite the alphabet, just like the other children. In a minute, the Buddha began to gently take the teacher by his hand and lead him upward, toward wisdom. Of course, the teacher, being a k-garten teacher was outraged! "You are not my teacher, OK!" he exclaimed at the Buddha.

Yes, the Buddha thought... and you are not mine. I wonder how long it will take for you to realize that.

I never claimed to be your teacher in the first place.

You are the one who came on with your condescending 'instruction', with the assumption that you are the teacher. But I reject your false instruction and your false Buddha. You're just a narcissist, cheaply parading his 'enlightenment'.

An authentic Buddha would never condescend or advertise his enlightenment to others as you have.

I repeat: not interested in playing your silly game. If you take that as my being outraged, then I suppose you'll just have to deal with it your own way.

Have fun playing your silly game with yourself.

 

[godnotgod]

I got it way back, before entering kindergarten. Now I twiddle my thumbs as I wait for my new k-garten teacher to see who I am.

Nothing Special.

 

[godnotgod]

I do not need to change internally. I am fine the way I am. The majority of other people definitely need improving, though.

And you say you want to be God, do you?

Don't call us; we'll call you.

Next!

 

[Heathen Hammer]

And you say you want to be God, do you?
Don't call us; we'll call you.

Of course. If I were not confident in my ability I wouldn't be ready to fix the horrible mess some deity wrought on his best day

I wouldn't wait for your call; you're one of those fellows.

I've made a few statements so far as to how I'd do it right; you are free to reference them and tear them apart, if you like, or if you can, but after 100-odd pages of failed attempts at asserting an illusory universe with some other real truth layered underneath, I don't have much expectation that you can. But please, by all means, knock yourself out.

 

[godnotgod]

Of course, transcending language as I do, I realize that 'invisible evidence' and 'no evidence' are merely toys for monkey minds to juggle.

That was my general understanding of your 'monkey mind' term. Why do you think I misunderstood it? I used some unhappy turn of phrase which is not yet approved Buddhist theology?

The more you speak, the more you reveal how erroneous your thinking is.

Your first statement above clearly demonstrates that you misunderstood in the first place.

But now you've attached yourself to it and fling it about childishly at every turn.

Some enlightened Buddha!

(Personally, I think you might just be a Christian troll pretending to enlightenment as a cheap way of getting a little proselytizing in edgewise, though I may be mistaken.)

 

[Thief]

I don't think so. Enlightenment is knowing what maya is; delusion is thinking maya is reality.

[/quote]


You haven't really thought about that line...have you?

ENLIGHTENMENT is to KNOW "maya".
And maya is not reality?

 

[godnotgod]

Of course. If I were not confident in my ability I wouldn't be ready to fix the horrible mess some deity wrought on his best day

All of which points to the fact that you've been taken in. It is not about God; it is about man needing vision correction. The 'horrible mess' you refer to is the result of erroneous conclusions due to poor vision.

I wouldn't wait for your call; you're one of those fellows.

On the contrary, it is you that sets himself apart as 'one of those fellows'.

I've made a few statements so far as to how I'd do it right; you are free to reference them and tear them apart, if you like, or if you can...

The fact that you are dead serious is the scary part. If you only understood the simplicity of the idea that the world is play but which some, like yourself, take too seriously, and want to meddle instead of play, you might begin to see yourself and your intentions, which to you seem right, differently.

...but after 100-odd pages of failed attempts at asserting an illusory universe with some other real truth layered underneath, I don't have much expectation that you can. But please, by all means, knock yourself out.

The 100 pages have to do with protest from others. My statement has been consistent and simple:

"The universe is the absolute as seen through the glass of Time, Space, and Causation". In other words, the absolute is at play.

So what's the verdict? Do babies get skewered for playing Peek-A-Boo in your perfect world where no mystery, no hiding is allowed?

 

[godnotgod]

You haven't really thought about that line...have you?

ENLIGHTENMENT is to KNOW "maya".
And maya is not reality?[/quote]

Maya means illusion.

"It is real in the empirical sense and unreal in the Absolute sense."

Life is fiction.

 

[Thief]

You haven't really thought about that line...have you?

ENLIGHTENMENT is to KNOW "maya".
And maya is not reality?

In the ordinary view, it is real; from a higher state, it is not. Life is fiction.[/quote]

And so everything you have posted is also fiction.
You're just making it all up as you go.

Based on the notion that nothing is real...all is illusion....
you don't really have a stance to take.
And likewise....no closing argument.

You're just here hoping everyone else will get tired of your.....'notion'
and go away.
Looking to make the last post?
No ego involved in this?

 

[godnotgod]

In the ordinary view, it is real; from a higher state, it is not. Life is fiction.

And so everything you have posted is also fiction.
You're just making it all up as you go.

What has been posted is to point to the fact that life IS fiction, though it is taken seriously as real. I am not making it up as I go; I am pointing it out as we go.

Based on the notion that nothing is real...all is illusion....
you don't really have a stance to take.

Well if it's all an illusion, why would anyone want to take a stance for or against? That also would be illusory.

And likewise....no closing argument.

Only that the illusion is understood as illusion from the vantage point of the absolute, which is the only reality.

You're just here hoping everyone else will get tired of your.....'notion'
and go away.
Looking to make the last post?
No ego involved in this?

No, silly. I'm here because I don't want others to suffer when they mistake the illusion for reality. The illusion is not a bad thing in itself. But it is crucial that we recognize it for what it is, and even appreciate it for its quality. Just don't fall for it, that's all.

The Buddha is seen sometimes with one hand held up, palm outward. With this gesture, called a mudra, the Buddha is saying: "Fear not. What you are seeing, though it seems real, is just One Big Act.

But because the nature of the illusion seems so real, it is necessary to do some work in order to hone our vision so we can detect it's illusory nature.

Remember the rope/snake metaphor? In that flash of an instant, we really did think the rope to be a snake, but in the very next moment, realized its illusory nature. Not so easy with our existence, however, so we suffer, needlessly so.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

All of which points to the fact that you've been taken in. It is not about God; it is about man needing vision correction. The 'horrible mess' you refer to is the result of erroneous conclusions due to poor vision.

Taken in, in what sense?
It is a horrible mess, as presented in the Abrahamic model.

I already gave you my disclaimers.

On the contrary, it is you that sets himself apart as 'one of those fellows'.

I used the word 'fellows' previously. Reference it in context.

The fact that you are dead serious is the scary part. If you only understood the simplicity of the idea that the world is play but which some, like yourself, take too seriously, and want to meddle instead of play, you might begin to see yourself and your intentions, which to you seem right, differently.

If that's how the world was, then of course it would be seen differently. But it t'isn't.

If Jehovah were the sole God and this was the best, perfect world he came up with, then in that context it's a **** poor job, and I can do much better. If this were how it was, then I am serious.

The 100 pages have to do with protest from others. My statement has been consistent and simple:

Yes, oh yes, consistent. Just, unsuccessful. Your reasoning throughout has been poor and unsuccessful in convincing anyone that you know what you're talking about. Your argumentation is not coherent. The confusion began way back when I was still an active participant; then, others joined in, pointing out the same things, and I drifted away. It's still at the exact same place, though.

So what's the verdict? Do babies get skewered for playing Peek-A-Boo in your perfect world where no mystery, no hiding is allowed?

What am I, Jehovah?

No mystery makes it a better world; no peek-a-boo necessary. Wisdom and awareness, without unnecessary suffering, fear, loss, Orwellianism, or ********.

 

[Curious George]

I don't think so. Enlightenment is knowing what maya is; delusion is thinking maya is reality.

ahh but that is the way the individual looks at enlightement

 

[Vansdad]

ahh but that is the way the individual looks at enlightement

Very true. Enlightenment could just mean being on a different level. Maybe one that seems or is clearer.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I never said there was proof. I said the experience is verifiable. You claim to be enlightened. To realize one's own enlightenment is to verify that enlightenment is a fact of life.

Sure. And to speak directly with the Holy Spirit is to veryfy that one can speak with the Holy Spirit.

So anything claimed by anyone is verifiable, at least in your view. To me, that seems a chaotic view.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I never claimed to be your teacher in the first place.

Of course you didn't claim it. You simply assumed it and began your instruction. I only condescend to condescenders.

But I reject your false instruction and your false Buddha. You're just a narcissist, cheaply parading his 'enlightenment'.

Oh, my. I think my work here is done.