The Debate of God.

[jasonwill2]

We don't know of any such God that exist who 'created' anything, let alone finite beings in his image. That is merely a belief system. What we call 'things' and 'beings' do not really exist as such; they are only temporal forms which come and go. At all times such things and beings are interconnected with everything else. That they are separate, finite things and entities is an illusion. The Hindus, for example, do not think of themselves as static egos, but as actions. There is no such thing as a wave on the ocean, or a river that flows, for example, and there is no such thing as a separate ego you call "I" that acts upon the world.

So rather than think of ourselves and other 'things' as finite 'creations', we can instead look at them as something the universe is doing. The universe at this moment is 'peopling', just as the ocean is 'waving'.

The problem with a world that was 'created' has always been the original source material, both for religion and science. But a manifested world, in which the manifestation is an illusion, has no problem with coming up with the source for the material because it did'nt exist to begin with.

But to return to the issue at hand, the nature of the Infinite (the Absolute; the Void; Tao; God; etc.) cannot be encapsulated in form. Form has no abiding or permanent substance that can be called 'God' or 'the Absolute', and so the Buddhists say:

"Form is emptiness;
Emptiness is form"

finite universe? It could very well be causeless and beginingless, and therefore infinite. We now have evidence of pre-existing background microwave radiation prior to the Big Bang, which indicates the prior presence of a universe, and suggests a cyclical condition, something the Hindus have said for centuries.

Tell me, what is your religion? I have found you generally offensive and at one end you seem to know a lot about eastern thought while at another argue like an atheist then as well like a Christian yet against Christians too (with the idol thing for example).

Mental emanations from a lower consciousness, karma-driven, ego-possessed being.

Why the hell are you quoting my signature? I see it as an ode to Lilith, and I never claimed that all my gods are transcendent. Actually, Lilith is a lesser god. I can't expect you to understand, if you have never had aggressive sexual feelings. Part of Lilith's domain is sexual aggression.

 

[godnotgod]

Tell me, what is your religion? I have found you generally offensive and at one end you seem to know a lot about eastern thought while at another argue like an atheist then as well like a Christian yet against Christians too (with the idol thing for example).

What is your motive in wanting to know?

Why the hell are you quoting my signature?

Because it's there and open to comment.
I see it as an ode to Lilith, and I never claimed that all my gods are transcendent. Actually, Lilith is a lesser god. I can't expect you to understand, if you have never had aggressive sexual feelings. Part of Lilith's domain is sexual aggression.[/quote]

So what? The statement still reflects a lower consciousness, karma-driven, ego-possessed being. The emotions involved are the negative emotions, which here are being nurtured.

 

[jasonwill2]

What is your motive in wanting to know?

Because I can't tell and it's not listed? Why else would I ask? Why should you get the unfair advantage of hiding your faith while mine is exposed?

Because it's there and open to comment.

I've never seen people pick apart someone's signature for a debate. It's just words from a song, why must it be in a religious debate unless your trying to troll me?

So what? The statement still reflects a lower consciousness, karma-driven, ego-possessed being. The emotions involved are the negative emotions, which here are being nurtured.

It's HorrorCore... death rap... what the hell do you expect? and why the hell do you keep saying karma-driven? I don't buy into that idea that people pay for things over multiple lives they don't have, and neither does SickTanicK as far as I can tell. He seems to either follow Thelema or Symbolic Satanism.

And who are you to judge "lower consciousness"? This is the most arrogant, white-lighter thing I have seen in a long time, and a sign of the disease that is to deny that we are carnal beings with carnal desires based on evolutionary forces ensuring that were desires are in line with our needs to survive and to produce more of our species.

What is a "bad" emotion to you, I realize is just part of a duality to fully embrace. You can ignore that we have dark sides, but all you will do is become enslaved by it by ignoring it.

 

[otokage007]

So what? The statement still reflects a lower consciousness, karma-driven, ego-possessed being. The emotions involved are the negative emotions, which here are being nurtured.

I don't think lower consciousness, karma-driven, ego-possessed actions like "sexual agression", are bad at all. Sexual agression is just one more way to live your sexuality (well unless u are talking here of something illegal).

 

[godnotgod]

Because I can't tell and it's not listed? Why else would I ask? Why should you get the unfair advantage of hiding your faith while mine is exposed?

That's your problem, but what does telling you what my religion, if any, have to do with the discussion? I am explaining my position as I go along. That is all you need to know.

If exposing your faith puts you in a disadvantageous position, perhaps something is wrong with your religion.

I've never seen people pick apart someone's signature for a debate. It's just words from a song, why must it be in a religious debate unless your trying to troll me?

I comment on people's signatures from time to time, if they pique my interest. If someone puts it out there for public viewing, it is fair game, as far as I am concerned. Your particular signature deliberately stokes the fires of aggressive behavior, even to the point of touting it. I just see it as going in the opposite direction of spiritual maturity. It is childish and destructive.

It's HorrorCore... death rap... what the hell do you expect?

Nothing in particular; I just deal with things as they come up.

and why the hell do you keep saying karma-driven? I don't buy into that idea that people pay for things over multiple lives they don't have, and neither does SickTanicK as far as I can tell. He seems to either follow Thelema or Symbolic Satanism.

It is intended not in the context of reincarnation, but as cause and effect. It is karma-driven because it has negative-aggressive intent behind it, which creates more negative-aggression in the world. It's just an expression of a desire/lust which serves the function of ego-gratification for its own sake.

And who are you to judge "lower consciousness"? This is the most arrogant, white-lighter thing I have seen in a long time, and a sign of the disease that is to deny that we are carnal beings with carnal desires based on evolutionary forces ensuring that were desires are in line with our needs to survive and to produce more of our species.

To identify the behavior in question as coming from a lower consciousness being is not to judge the person involved as good or evil; it is only to tell it like it is. While what you say about carnal desires and evolution is true, it has nothing to do with the content of your signature, which is an exploitation of sexual aggression as a positive action. It is not. It is about jealousy, hatred, anger, possession, domination. Everything that feeds the ego, and nothing that nurtures spiritual growth. It, in short, is excrement perfumed to make it look like something attractive and desireable.

What is a "bad" emotion to you, I realize is just part of a duality to fully embrace. You can ignore that we have dark sides, but all you will do is become enslaved by it by ignoring it.

A more enlightened human does not give free reign, even nurturing to their dark side as indicated by the content of your signature. I did not say to ignore it; but we don't give it credence or expression either. We recognize it for what it is, but do not react out of it. It is kept in balance by the higher intellect.

Now don't misread the above as if to say that the sexual urge is suppressed. That is NOT what I am saying at all.

and, oh yes. I know all about Lilith...

 

[godnotgod]

I don't think lower consciousness, karma-driven, ego-possessed actions like "sexual agression", are bad at all. Sexual agression is just one more way to live your sexuality (well unless u are talking here of something illegal).

The signature in question is an exploitation of selfish desires which feeds the negative emotions, such as jealousy, hatred, anger, etc. No one wants to be treated as an object of sexual aggression by a selfishly motivated person who is only out to gratify his ego, unless they themselves have an imbalance. Most people want unselfishly motivated, loving sexual encounters with reciprocity.

 

[godnotgod]

2/01/2008 - New [enough] research from Vanderbilt University shows for the first time that the brain processes aggression as a reward — much like sex, food and drugs — which may offer insights into our propensity to fight and our fascination with violent sports like boxing and football.

“Aggression occurs among virtually all vertebrates and is necessary to get and keep important resources such as mates, territory and food,” said Vanderbilt Kennedy Center investigator Craig Kennedy, Ph.D. “We have found that the 'reward pathway' in the brain becomes engaged in response to an aggressive event and that dopamine is involved.”

Brain processes aggression as reward: study (02/1/08)

This is apparently a function of our animal biology, but nature has long been known in the sphere of Higher Consciousness to actually be an obstacle to spiritual development:

"But although it is safe to play the Master Game [spiritual awakening], this has not served to make it popular. It still remains the most demanding and difficult of games and, in our society, there are few who play. Contemporary man, hypnotized by the glitter of his own gadgets, has little contact with his inner world, concerns himself with outer, not inner space. But the Master Game is played entirely in the inner world, a vast and complex territory about which men know very little. The aim of the game is true awakening, full development of the powers latent in man. The game can be played only by people whose observations of themselves and others have led them to a certain conclusion, namely, that man's ordinary state of consciousness, his so-called waking state, is not the highest level of consciousness of which he is capable. In fact, this state is so far from real awakening that it could appropriately be called a form of somnambulism, a condition of "waking sleep." [ie 'Identification']

Once a person has reached this conclusion, he is no longer able to sleep comfortably. A new appetite develops within him, the hunger for real awakening, for full consciousness. He realizes that he sees, hears, knows only a tiny fraction of what he could see, hear and know, that he lives in the poorest, shabbiest of the rooms in his inner dwelling, but that he could enter other rooms, beautiful and filled with treasures, the windows of which look out on eternity and infinity. In these rooms he would transcend his petty personal self and undergo spiritual rebirth, "the rising from the tomb" which is the theme of so many myths and the basis of all the mystery religions, including Christianity.

He who arrives at this conclusion is ready to play the Master Game. But though he may be ready, he does not necessarily know how to play. He cannot draw upon instinctive knowledge, for nature has not endowed men with such instincts. She provides for man's development up to the age of puberty, she endows him with the instinct to propagate his kind, but after this she leaves him to his own devices. Far from helping man to develop further into the harmonious and enlightened being he might become, the blind force of evolution has actually put obstacles in his way."

The Master Game, by Arthur deRopp

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Is there any point in pointing out to those who only know the shadows on the cave wall that the source of these shadows is light, perhaps they're not presently evolved enough to understand?

 

[godnotgod]

Is there any point in pointing out to those who only know the shadows on the cave wall that the source of these shadows is light, perhaps they're not presently evolved enough to understand?

That's a good point, and probably the key here is that some will only really be ready when they have exhausted their indulgence in the shadows to the point where they no longer just satisfy, but actually become the source of suffering and anxiety. Others may be in a position where they only suspect something is amiss, and begin to seek, responding to certain queues along their path to lead them. All the while, however, the light you refer to is always present, always accessible, even in, or especially in, one's darkest hour. Of course, we should not 'push the river', so to speak, but the teaching should always be there for those who know there is something far more fulfilling than the empty calorie, dancing cave wall shadows.

A "troubled voyage in calm weather" seems to be man's ongoing condition.

 

[jasonwill2]

I don't think lower consciousness, karma-driven, ego-possessed actions like "sexual agression", are bad at all. Sexual agression is just one more way to live your sexuality (well unless u are talking here of something illegal).

This. I wouldn't ever harm someone sexually, but I'd get rough with someone into that.

The signature in question is an exploitation of selfish desires which feeds the negative emotions, such as jealousy, hatred, anger, etc. No one wants to be treated as an object of sexual aggression by a selfishly motivated person who is only out to gratify his ego, unless they themselves have an imbalance. Most people want unselfishly motivated, loving sexual encounters with reciprocity.

Two things:

1) The disadvantage is I can't identify your paradigm when you can identify me. It's like striking from the shadows. If you are afraid to tell me what your religion is then I won't debate with you. Face me head on or do not face me at all. Not that you are even striking at things that exist, just the fleeting shadows of your ignorance and misappropriations of my religion based on culturally slanderous and bigoted conditioning as=to what Satanism is.

Thing is, it's obvious to me that you are close-minded, and so you won't listen as you have refused to to realize the scope of my beliefs and practice. If you call it "ego-gratifying", then without gratifying the ego you wouldn't of been born. The "higher consciousness" and "lower consciousness" exists in the same mind, and the only thing that separates them is what level and awareness they function on. And actually there are three, not two levels of consciousness. These relate directly to my Theory of Aspects. A "low" one, essential to survival and part emotion, and a "middle" one that is the domain of emotion and some higher thought, and the "high" that is higher thought as well as spiritual awareness. To say that a "lower" one works against the other isn't true, the higher ones DEPEND on the lower ones to exist. If you remove the lowest most consciousness, the ones on-top crumble. And the lowest consciousness of all is based in physical reality in the body of the being.

meaning that if my desires are carnal, then so be it, because my "higher" and "spiritual" desires REQUIRE a flesh body to come into existence at all, and to remain here.

A LaVeyan would have a field day with you though

 

[godnotgod]

Two things:

1) The disadvantage is I can't identify your paradigm when you can identify me. It's like striking from the shadows. If you are afraid to tell me what your religion is then I won't debate with you. Face me head on or do not face me at all. Not that you are even striking at things that exist, just the fleeting shadows of your ignorance and misappropriations of my religion based on culturally slanderous and bigoted conditioning as=to what Satanism is.

Firstly, I am not responding to 'your religion', but to what you and the author of the website have said about it, in short, the content. Likewise, I have squared with you in every post with pure content, but you want to focus on the finger that points to the moon, instead of on the moon itself. If I am bigoted and slanderous, then show me, via discussion, exactly how that is. I have addressed your posts squarely and expect the same of you. I am not afraid to disclose 'my religion' to you; it's that I see no point in terms of the discussion. Does that give you a feeling of being lost? Of not knowing what to attack?

Thing is, it's obvious to me that you are close-minded, and so you won't listen as you have refused to to realize the scope of my beliefs and practice. If you call it "ego-gratifying", then without gratifying the ego you wouldn't of been born. The "higher consciousness" and "lower consciousness" exists in the same mind, and the only thing that separates them is what level and awareness they function on. And actually there are three, not two levels of consciousness. These relate directly to my Theory of Aspects. A "low" one, essential to survival and part emotion, and a "middle" one that is the domain of emotion and some higher thought, and the "high" that is higher thought as well as spiritual awareness. To say that a "lower" one works against the other isn't true, the higher ones DEPEND on the lower ones to exist. If you remove the lowest most consciousness, the ones on-top crumble. And the lowest consciousness of all is based in physical reality in the body of the being.

All I am trying to make clear about what you have presented is that it is just that: a belief or theory, and not necessarily reality. You don't KNOW that the beliefs you hold as true are in fact, true. You believe them because you have an underlying motive to do so. The tail wags the dog.

You're wrong about lower consciousness. It is higher consciousness that manifests the world in the first place. Higher consciousness does not crumble. The world and its flesh is what comes and goes; the Infinite is always present because it is Unborn and therefore deathless. It does not depend on lower consciousness in order to be.

The reason you think the higher state is dependent on the lower state is because you think the brain is the center of consciousness, and if the physical body dies, then so does higher consciousness as a function of the brain. But higher consciousness is not a function of the brain.

THE BRAIN IS A FUNCTION OF HIGHER CONSCIOUSNESS, WHICH IS NON-LOCAL!

Egoic pursuits, such as pride, anger, hatred, and selfishness do everything possible to prevent access to Higher Consciousness, coupled with man's animal nature, his biology, as it is geared toward survival, domination, territoriality, all of which amount to one of two things in the animal world: you are victim or predator. Fight or flight. You have no time for the nurturing of higher states.

Those locked into egoic pursuits keep others locked into them as well. The ego does not want to die; it does everything possible to perpetuate itself, even so far as to create the idea of a heavenly reward in an eternal afterlife, or a hell where those who are deemed not worthy as it imagines itself to be are sent for punishment for their 'unworthiness'. It needs to be stroked by others of the same ilk to provide security and assurance that it is with the right people, doing the right thing, driving the right car, with the right partner, wearing the right clothes, etc, etc. It's a fraud.

meaning that if my desires are carnal, then so be it, because my "higher" and "spiritual" desires REQUIRE a flesh body to come into existence at all, and to remain here.

There is nothing that 'requires' any such thing. It's purely a matter of choice.

Pure carnal desire pursued for its own sake is Eros, and has its consequences. I think we call that 'hedonism', when taken to extremes. It only really becomes meaningful and really satisfying when transformed by Agape, so that a balance of energies is achieved.

A LaVeyan would have a field day with you though

That sure is a cheap shot, and is equivalent to the Christian saying, when he has run out of options for frightening you, that "Just you wait til Judgment Day and you find yourself condemned to hell!"

It shows me that you are now grasping for straws, which is also the reason you want to know what religion I practice so you can have a target to attack.

You don't know that I'm invisible, do you?

 

[jasonwill2]

Firstly, I am not responding to 'your religion', but to what you and the author of the website have said about it, in short, the content. Likewise, I have squared with you in every post with pure content, but you want to focus on the finger that points to the moon, instead of on the moon itself. If I am bigoted and slanderous, then show me, via discussion, exactly how that is. I have addressed your posts squarely and expect the same of you. I am not afraid to disclose 'my religion' to you; it's that I see no point in terms of the discussion. Does that give you a feeling of being lost? Of not knowing what to attack?

No, you ******* refused from the first post to look at what I gave you and grabbed two lines that was NOT in the link I gave you to weasel your way into calling my gods idols.

The reason I asked for your religion is I don't know what ******* viewpoint you are arguing from, so how can I be expected to give a defense unless I know the lingo you are using? All your terms mean different things in different contexts, and you keep lumping me and Christians together and other stupid ********.

Alternatively, what the **** does it matter what I believe? I don't live by belief, I live by practice. But I don't worship Idols, I revere powerful and ancient entities that could literally crush you and I with a single thought, and I don't revere gods I have not ever invoked, evoked, or worked with in some form of practice. These are not theories, it is my knowledge of their existence. Beliefs are any other details about them, but I do know that 1. they exist, 2. they are ancient, and 3. they are powerful.

All I am trying to make clear about what you have presented is that it is just that: a belief or theory, and not necessarily reality. You don't KNOW that the beliefs you hold as true are in fact, true. You believe them because you have an underlying motive to do so. The tail wags the dog.

You don't know a ******* thing about me or what I have seen and experienced directly with the supernatural. Just last night a spirit came to me in a ritual, I KNOW it's reality because I have seen it, heard it, and felt it (tactile).

You're wrong about lower consciousness.

Is this not hypocrisy to say that my beliefs have no reality then do the exact same thing you just condemned, pushing your beliefs off as reality?

THE BRAIN IS A FUNCTION OF HIGHER CONSCIOUSNESS, WHICH IS NON-LOCAL!

********, ******* prove it.

That sure is a cheap shot, and is equivalent to the Christian saying, when he has run out of options for frightening you, that "Just you wait til Judgment Day and you find yourself condemned to hell!"

It shows me that you are now grasping for straws,

A LaVeyan is a kind of dogmatic atheistic Satanist, I was just saying that it would be entertaining to watch one go at you. There is no judgement day ******** in that, it's a remark that your statements about higher and lower consciousness would get their attention quick. They believe that the "lower" and "carnal" being is all there is and that anything else is complete ********.

 

[Thief]

And this thread is suppose to be about God.

 

[kylixguru]

I am simply going to use this thread as a means to discuss the existence of God with anyone. I am constantly discussing this with people, and feel I should have a main thread to post on.

If anyone wishes to argue that god (or whatever deity you believe in) is true, I have questions ready. Thank you.

We can talk about it.
Ask me whatever you like.

 

[jasonwill2]

Can't help but notice your avatar.

That is a Succubus dude, and as they are incorporeal they can materialize as whatever they want to. It isn't Satan.

The fact that it's slightly "Pan" like makes sense. Pan was a fertility/sex god, so why couldnt't a sex demon look somewhat Pan-like?

 

[Thief]

That is a Succubus dude, and as they are incorporeal they can materialize as whatever they want to. It isn't Satan.

The fact that it's slightly "Pan" like makes sense. Pan was a fertility/sex god, so why couldnt't a sex demon look somewhat Pan-like?

That's the idea.
and what if you should ever meet whatever you envision?

 

[jasonwill2]

That's the idea.
and what if you should ever meet whatever you envision?

A Succubus? I've met many, but have yet to see one visually manifest. I really don't need to see them to get anything out of it and so it would be a waste of their energy to do so.

Satan? I think I met him once, that or it was an epic collection of pooled wisps. Since then, I have always imaged Satan as he/said wisps manifested, which is as I described.

 

[Thief]

A Succubus? I've met many, but have yet to see one visually manifest. I really don't need to see them to get anything out of it and so it would be a waste of their energy to do so.

Satan? I think I met him once, that or it was an epic collection of pooled wisps. Since then, I have always imaged Satan as he/said wisps manifested, which is as I described.

My God, I call the Creator.
His manifestation would be all of substance.
Substance is the 'proving' everyone else keeps asking for.

 

[jasonwill2]

My God, I call the Creator.
His manifestation would be all of substance.
Substance is the 'proving' everyone else keeps asking for.

Doesn't mean that he can't manifest as a specific entity at times.

 

[Debater Slayer]

***Mod Post***

Thread closed for Staff review.
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