My view of "God": "God" (most likely, at least) exists in many infinite "ways" (spiritually and/or corporeally). Have any of you have heard of the story of the Blind Men and the Elephant? I believe that people's understanding of God are different parts of the whole picture of "God". For me, I believe "God" exists (most likely) in this description (look up "Spinoza's God" on the Internet). Sure, I don't know everything about him/her/it, but at least I'm not trying to say that 'My view of "God" is the correct view of "God"".
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The Debate of God.
- Thread starter Daviso452
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Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Here you go Sam...The Blind Men and the Elephant..
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
There you go Sam, let's throw in the Buddhist version as well...Blind Men and an Elephant - this ancient story was shared among many spiritual traditions, such as Buddhism, Jainism, Hindu, and Sufis. ..and btw, welcome to RI...
godnotgod
Thou art That
Yes, and here's one more version, involving chameleons:
Three men went into the jungle on different occasions and saw a chameleon.
"A chameleon is red," said the first man.
"No a chameleon is green," said the second man.
"Nonsense, a chameleon is brown," said the third man.
Those who disagree about the nature of God are like these three men.
Hindu Teaching Story
...and here's one that you might also enjoy....
The Wisdom of No Escape
godnotgod
Thou art That
The word 'god' necessarily means more than one thing, as many are viewing it through their own personal viewponits. What is universal and constant is the nature of reality itself. When you shift from a personal view of reality to a universal view of reality, you will see the same reality as anyone else seeing it via a universal view.
This is a crucial issue. Yeshu made a point of it when he said:
39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
John 5:39
New King James Version (NKJV)
Scripture is a second-hand description of the living spiritual experience. Yeshu was suggesting that his listeners get the spiritual experience first. That is how the scriptures will become clear, not the other way around. Likewise, when we apprehend reality directly, we gain a first hand view, rather than one filtered through a conceptual overlay (ie 'definition') of reality.
When anyone says the word 'salt' everyone knows what it means, because everyone has experienced it's taste. Therefore, the saltiness of the sea is the same to everyone, everywhere.
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That's what monism is for.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
godnotgod
Thou art That
Orthodoxy has done so, as a means of encapsulating a God that is accessible to the masses via mere belief and obedience to what it imagines as divine law. But it is mysticism that goes beyond mere definition and belief to get to the essence, or heart of God, and it is in this divine union in which both law and essence are integrally balanced.
If the word 'god' should not mean more than one thing, then it should be obvious that one needs to go beyond the word-symbol and the definition both in order to get to that which is the One itself.
If the definition is not flawed, then show me where the separation between the supernatural and the natural occurs.
If the definition is not flawed, then show me the origin of the original material used to create the world.
"The place wherein Thou art found unveiled is girt round with the coincidence of contradictions, and this is the wall of Paradise wherein Thou dost abide. The door whereof is guarded by the most proud spirit of Reason, and, unless he be vanquished, the way in will not lie open."
Nicholas of Cusa
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Thief
Rogue Theologian
Still pressing your assumptions in my direction.
You will never catch on in such practice.
We are separate each one and all.
You can tell ( and have done so here)
If we were all one with God....you would be God...I would be God...
Hitler would be God....etc...
Obviously not.
Going back to God requires that you first realize you have to go back.
(which means you are now separate)
Unless you wish now to say you are ....God.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Yet the omnipresent spirit is in all, yes?
godnotgod
Thou art That
But you have never shown where you were separated in the first place. You once said 'birth', but that just changes the scenery. You are still 100% with God at all times, whether you are born or unborn.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
So you have no sense of proximity.....
'You' are...over there.
'I' am .....here.
God is in heaven.
Man is separate and each of us is living ...separate lives.
godnotgod
Thou art That
But Yeshu said that the kingdom of God is within.
You have no idea of proximity or distance unless A is connected to B.
What makes you and I one is that you cannot have a discussion without me, and vice-versa. I am in your head, and you in mine. The discussion of 'you and I' is a single event of 'you-I', but ultimately, there is no 'you' or 'I' having a discussion: there is only a discussion, without 'discussers' of the discussion.
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Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
From the Hebrew tradition...
Psalm 82:6 I said, You are gods;
you are all sons of the Most High.
From the Christian tradition....
John 10:33 We are not stoning you for any good work, they replied, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods?
1 Corinthians 3:16 Dont you know that you yourselves are Gods temple and that Gods Spirit dwells in you?
From the Sanatan tradition...
- - Pranam - -
From pra, "complete," and nam, "salutation."
This salutation, with the hands in the position of prayer, is expression of reverence to God or to one in whom the Divine is manifested. You may say Pranam or Namaste.
Meaning: "I bow with deep respects to the all-loving, all-powerful and omnipresent God in you."
If the divine was not within, there could be no realization of God, but the price to pay for the realization is the perishable ego, you can't realize unity with God so long as the mortal ego believes God is separate.
So let's note a few points...
There can be no realization of union with God so long as the mortal ego believes God is not already present within.
.
There can be no realization of union with God even though the mortal ego may believe God is present within, but is not prepared for the sacrifice of the conceptualizing mortal ego mind during this life.
There can be no realization of union with God so long as the mortal ego believes God is present within and that union has already realized.
Psalm 82:6 I said, You are gods;
you are all sons of the Most High.
From the Christian tradition....
John 10:33 We are not stoning you for any good work, they replied, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods?
1 Corinthians 3:16 Dont you know that you yourselves are Gods temple and that Gods Spirit dwells in you?
From the Sanatan tradition...
- - Pranam - -
From pra, "complete," and nam, "salutation."
This salutation, with the hands in the position of prayer, is expression of reverence to God or to one in whom the Divine is manifested. You may say Pranam or Namaste.
Meaning: "I bow with deep respects to the all-loving, all-powerful and omnipresent God in you."
If the divine was not within, there could be no realization of God, but the price to pay for the realization is the perishable ego, you can't realize unity with God so long as the mortal ego believes God is separate.
So let's note a few points...
There can be no realization of union with God so long as the mortal ego believes God is not already present within.
.
There can be no realization of union with God even though the mortal ego may believe God is present within, but is not prepared for the sacrifice of the conceptualizing mortal ego mind during this life.
There can be no realization of union with God so long as the mortal ego believes God is present within and that union has already realized.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Let us look at the question from your point of view:
Let us assume that you have now 'returned' to God, and are looking at your former life of having been 'separated' from God.
We can call our new life with God 'the real', and our former 'separated' life 'the not-real', OK?
If our former life of separation were 'the real', there would be no point in seeking a 'return' to God.
So if our former life is 'not-real', then it must be fictional. The character in question who thought himself 'separate' never existed to begin with, so neither did his 'separation' from any God. The only thing that is real is this consciousness that is completely at one with God. There never was anything else; it was all a fiction, a dream, from which one has now awakened into the true state of reality. At no time during the dream were we ever separated from God; we only had a dream-thought that we were separate, and now we know that separation was only an illusion.
The fictional dream character does not return to anything; it only dissolves away. Why would it's fictional existence continue on into true reality? That would only be to perpetuate the fiction, and the suffering, and the delusion, and the self-seeking after God, Enlightenment, Heaven, etc.. Spiritual awakening brings all that to an end. We call this end, or 'extinguishing' of the self, Nirvana.
Note: To add one more tradition to ben d's list, there is Buddhism. The Buddha said that all things have 'Buddha-nature'.
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Thief
Rogue Theologian
Not ok.
Try banging your head on the wall til you bleed...
then say it's not real.
See if that works.
This world is a separation in spirit.
For now you are contained in that body.
You did not put you in your body.
You are not your own handiwork.
What comes up from the body after you last breath will stand before heaven.
The only real question.....will heaven leave you where you fell?
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
It's too late to wait until the body dies to 'stand before heaven, this coming up from the body must be realized before bodily death.
The body is like an egg, it contains the spirit 'embryo' that has the potential to be born into spiritual heaven when it is fully developed. However just like the chicken embryo that fails to fully develop inside the egg, if it fails to come out from inside under it's own volition, it will will die inside the egg, so too the 'soul' whose development is not sufficient to realize its true heavenly destiny and leave the body, it will be aborted after the death of the body. (Btw, this is known as the second death as distinct from the first death of the physical body, for this spiritual embryo is made of spiritual vibrational energy which, due to its incomplete development, it can't function in the spiritual domain independently of the bodily womb, it decays over a long period.)
If you try to hang on to your life, you will lose it. But if you give up your life for my sake, you will save it. - Luke 9:24 New Living Translation
If anyone has a spiritual eye, let them go forth from their body to behold the Beautiful, let them fly up and float above not seeking to see shape or colour but rather that from which these things are created, that which is quiet and calm, stable and changeless, that which is ONE, that which issues forth from itself and is contained in itself, that which is like nothing else but ITSELF. - A Hermetic Saying