The Debate of God.

[Tiberius]

Me too. I've never heard a convincing one!

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

So, does anyone wish to present an argument of theirs for the existence of God? I would love to hear it!

Ok,

I believe in the existence of a supreme consciousness, infinite and eternal.

 

[Daviso452]

Ok,

I believe in the existence of a supreme consciousness, infinite and eternal.

This is a belief, not an argument. Please present why you believe this. Your experiences, your evidence, your logic, etc.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

This is a belief, not an argument. Please present why you believe this. Your experiences, your evidence, your logic, etc.

Ahh,

hmmmm,,, well I experience this life in this universe of which i have minimal control over, and that is evidenced by reality e.g: i cant fly, so my logic tells me that to be thinking of myself as the only random chance and structured by unconscious atoms will make my experience in this reality worthless because there is no point to existence because the idea of love, ethics, and even conscious becomes just a random workings of unconscious matter, but the question of my existence still will remain because i do experience this life consciously, therefore this universe and this existence requires a governing consciousness, to make atoms do what they do and to put laws in place (so to speak) for the correct and organised functions of matter.. resulting in my existence, producing my "self", as i know i cant do this then there is something beyond my experience physically to control all existence.

there......

m:

 

[Daviso452]

hmmmm,,, well I experience this life in this universe of which i have minimal control over, and that is evidenced by reality e.g: i cant fly, so my logic tells me that to be thinking of myself as the only random chance and structured by unconscious atoms will make my experience in this reality worthless because there is no point to existence because the idea of love, ethics, and even conscious becomes just a random workings of unconscious matter, but the question of my existence still will remain because i do experience this life consciously, therefore this universe and this existence requires a governing consciousness, to make atoms do what they do and to put laws in place (so to speak) for the correct and organised functions of matter.. resulting in my existence, producing my "self", as i know i cant do this then there is something beyond my experience physically to control all existence.

Why can't life be without Objective purpose? Why can't your feelings just be an assortment of chemicals? Does it make what you experience false? No! You still want to live, and that is reason enough. It's subjective, with no true meaning, but you are still experiencing it. You don't need God to have purpose.

I believe that our existence was just a by-product of chemical reactions that resulted in a cell which resulted in life. Our existence is not special; only rare. The universe could have had different forces, and our carbon-based life may not exist. would make no difference to the universe.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Daviso452;2787863]Why can't life be without Objective purpose? Why can't your feelings just be an assortment of chemicals? Does it make what you experience false? No! You still want to live, and that is reason enough. It's subjective, with no true meaning, but you are still experiencing it. You don't need God to have purpose.

I was not referring to GOD, I was referencing to a governing consciousness, Why cant there be purpose?, Why cant my feeling not be just assortment of chemicals?, Why do I want to live the way I live now, why does not randomness just put me on Mars right now??

I believe that our existence was just a by-product of chemical reactions that resulted in a cell which resulted in life. Our existence is not special; only rare. The universe could have had different forces, and our carbon-based life may not exist. would make no difference to the universe.

Could have, may have,,,but does not... This Universe is reality, it does have structure, formula can be devised by us to determine the structure of something, the Universe has the forces that we know off, that which we don't know yet does not become non existent, I agree our physical structure is a bi-product of chemical reactions, and our existence is not special, but that's our Physical structure, what about what we call consciousness?? what is the formula for that, what chemical assortment is that, How does inanimate matter one day decide to form all of existence?, i don't think this Universe came from nothing, the Laws of nature which we as the most intelligent creature on this planet know of was not put in place by us. and to say inanimate matter has by its own accord without a conscious formed us who are conscious is not possible unless there is a universal consciousness governing what happens in this plane of existence.

 

[Daviso452]

I was not referring to GOD, I was referencing to a governing consciousness, Why cant there be purpose?, Why cant my feeling not be just assortment of chemicals?, Why do I want to live the way I live now, why does not randomness just put me on Mars right now??

I never said it couldn't. The point I was trying to make is that there is no evidence to support it, and that it is not required for existence as so many claim.

Could have, may have,,,but does not... This Universe is reality, it does have structure, formula can be devised by us to determine the structure of something, the Universe has the forces that we know off, that which we don't know yet does not become non existent, I agree our physical structure is a bi-product of chemical reactions, and our existence is not special, but that's our Physical structure, what about what we call consciousness?? what is the formula for that, what chemical assortment is that, How does inanimate matter one day decide to form all of existence?, i don't think this Universe came from nothing, the Laws of nature which we as the most intelligent creature on this planet know of was not put in place by us. and to say inanimate matter has by its own accord without a conscious formed us who are conscious is not possible unless there is a universal consciousness governing what happens in this plane of existence.

"Consciousness" is just the result of our brain's perception of itself, and its awareness of those around it. How do you know it is not possible? How would you go about testing it is impossible? We don't need god. Again, do not take my words as evidence against God's existence. There is no way to prove God does not exist. All I am saying is that God is not the only way such things can happen. You are implying the "God of the gaps;" we do not know of any other way this can happen, so it must have been God."

I had a discussion of awareness with a user on this site called apophenia. In fact, we just finished it up. The conclusion was that Apophenia had this concept of awareness that he admitted was not scientific, and before was trying to push it cannot be explained by science. I admitted that the concept of "awareness" and "consciousness" is incredibly sketchy. Many consider it a mere concept created by man in order to describe our status as humanity. But actual awareness seems to be mainly rooted in our sensory organs and our perception of events, coupled with our neural pathways and our capacity for knowledge.

But bottom line consciousness is not a well-defined term that neither skeptical or spiritual sides can even come to an agreement on its definition. The final point I made to Apophenia was that it seemed to me that he, as well as you, seem to be giving "consciousness" some higher status and meaning that it truly has, much like how ancient Egyptians did with the sun. Does that all make sense?

 

[Prophet]

Hi Daviso452,

I don't wish to take anything away from apophenia. I'm a fan of his. He demonstrated patience beyond my abilities, most notably with one debater who insulted him at every turn. However, I think I may be able to offer you more pointed information on Awareness.

Awareness actually has very little to do with sensory organs. It is a sense, but not a physical sense, but rather a moral one. When one performs an evil act, he thinks because he has seen his action with his eyes he has faced the evil, but evil is not physical. Evil is not in action. Evil is in selfish motive. To bear living in evil, we must sever our Awareness.

Awareness is a key concept in understanding how the mind works. When a being is severed from Awareness, he is ruled by a false self. This false self is known to the philosophers as the ego.

If you are wondering why a false self is neccessary, I'm happy to tell you. The Awareness is the True Self which runs through all sentient beings. Behind all the layers of damage life in a world at war has subjected us to, we are all made in God's image, with a natural desire to be and do good. Identification with the True Self makes you selfless, seeing your True Self reflected in every being you encounter.

Unable to identify with his True Self, a being ruled by ego must identify with something else. Some of the more insane egoic beings identify with possessions, but even the most sane, yet unenlightened people will identify with their mind. They will think awful thoughts about other beings, never able to step back from their stream of thought to ask themselves their true motive in thinking such a thought, because egoic beings blind themselves to their motives.

The ego accomplishes this feat by penning off an area of his mind which psychology refers to as the subconscious. Particularly evil beings are particularly tortured by their subconscious because being unable to see their evil makes them unable to let it go, resulting in crushing guilt. The subconscious is penned off by this guilt.

I doubt I'm interested in debating this, but I thought you could use some more detailed ideas on Awareness.

 

[cottage]

Hi Daviso452,

I don't wish to take anything away from apophenia. I'm a fan of his. He demonstrated patience beyond my abilities, most notably with one debater who insulted him at every turn. However, I think I may be able to offer you more pointed information on Awareness.

Awareness actually has very little to do with sensory organs. It is a sense, but not a physical sense, but rather a moral one. When one performs an evil act, he thinks because he has seen his action with his eyes he has faced the evil, but evil is not physical. Evil is not in action. Evil is in selfish motive. To bear living in evil, we must sever our Awareness.

Awareness is a key concept in understanding how the mind works. When a being is severed from Awareness, he is ruled by a false self. This false self is known to the philosophers as the ego.

If you are wondering why a false self is neccessary, I'm happy to tell you. The Awareness is the True Self which runs through all sentient beings. Behind all the layers of damage life in a world at war has subjected us to, we are all made in God's image, with a natural desire to be and do good. Identification with the True Self makes you selfless, seeing your True Self reflected in every being you encounter.

Unable to identify with his True Self, a being ruled by ego must identify with something else. Some of the more insane egoic beings identify with possessions, but even the most sane, yet unenlightened people will identify with their mind. They will think awful thoughts about other beings, never able to step back from their stream of thought to ask themselves their true motive in thinking such a thought, because egoic beings blind themselves to their motives.

The ego accomplishes this feat by penning off an area of his mind which psychology refers to as the subconscious. Particularly evil beings are particularly tortured by their subconscious because being unable to see their evil makes them unable to let it go, resulting in crushing guilt. The subconscious is penned off by this guilt.

I doubt I'm interested in debating this, but I thought you could use some more detailed ideas on Awareness.

May I ask what exactly is this 'True Self' you speak of? And can you give even a single example of an individual who is not necessarily egocentric?

 

[Prophet]

May I ask what exactly is this 'True Self' you speak of? And can you give even a single example of an individual who is not necessarily egocentric?

The True Self, Awareness, and Consciousness are all the same thing when fully understood.

Sentience implies Consciousness. It is not your ability to think and act that makes you sentient, but rather your Awareness of your thought and action. One who is not fully Aware is also not fully sentient as a result. Part of an egoic beings True Self is buried in the subconscious. Until the ego is defeated, Consciousness is broken. One's ability to make wise decisions is comprimised, because he cannot face his evil motives.

And for your examples of Awakened beings, I submit Jesus, Lao Tzu, Siddhartha Gautama, and Socrates. There are many more who have been forgotten by history. The Truth is one. It has gone by many names.

 

[cottage]

The True Self, Awareness, and Consciousness are all the same thing when fully understood.

Sentience implies Consciousness. It is not your ability to think and act that makes you sentient, but rather your Awareness of your thought and action. One who is not fully Aware is also not fully sentient as a result. Part of an egoic beings True Self is buried in the subconscious. Until the ego is defeated, Consciousness is broken. One's ability to make wise decisions is comprimised, because he cannot face his evil motives.

And for your examples of Awakened beings, I submit Jesus, Lao Tzu, Siddhartha Gautama, and Socrates. There are many more who have been forgotten by history. The Truth is one. It has gone by many names.

I'm sorry but you haven't given an explantion of how it is even logically possible to be selfless! And you presume to know what the 'True Self' is but have only given the names of historical characters. Please show how any of those preachers and philosophers demonstrates the existence of a 'True Self'? And 'The Truth is one' seems to be nothing more than a plattitude; but perhaps you can demonstrate otherwise?

 

[Prophet]

I'm going to pass.

 

[9Westy9]

Ahh,

hmmmm,,, well I experience this life in this universe of which i have minimal control over, and that is evidenced by reality e.g: i cant fly, so my logic tells me that to be thinking of myself as the only random chance and structured by unconscious atoms will make my experience in this reality worthless because there is no point to existence because the idea of love, ethics, and even conscious becomes just a random workings of unconscious matter, but the question of my existence still will remain because i do experience this life consciously, therefore this universe and this existence requires a governing consciousness, to make atoms do what they do and to put laws in place (so to speak) for the correct and organised functions of matter.. resulting in my existence, producing my "self", as i know i cant do this then there is something beyond my experience physically to control all existence.

there......

m:

why does what you said above "require a governing consciousness"?

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

why does what you said above "require a governing consciousness"?

Well the point I was trying to make is that I see the Universe and everything in it as structured and to me implies intelligence, and so I assumed a sort of super consciousness that governs all this, I could ask you why it does not require a governing consciousness?, I do not like to refer this "governing consciousness", as GOD, because the word GOD to me automatic implies a old man in heaven pointing fingers at what I do, or something like that, so I see this Universe as being pervaded by a force that we are yet to understand completely.

What I think many anti-God people here have to get out of there mind is that when the word GOD is said by someone that it does not always imply to the Biblical, Koranic or the superstitious "the man up there", kind of thing, I would go to the extent of saying that "GOD" does not exist, but that does not mean that all concepts of "GOD", are the same and incorrect.

And why do we have to be anti-GOD, What i think is because majority who try to justify there disbelief in a GOD are just having a negative reaction to the concept of GOD in the Biblical or Koranic sense, because you are forced to believe in a GOD that hurts people, is jealous, is wrathful and ect.ect., But that is just unfair to people who have a totally opposite view of what "GOD', is.

I don't see why faith in something greater then you can be harmful, if it is not harmful faith in the first place then it should not offend anyone.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

why does what you said above "require a governing consciousness"?

Oh, and to answer your question more shortly,, please read my entire post, i highlight below.

Originally Posted by Satyamavejayanti

"therefore this universe and this existence requires a governing consciousness. To make atoms do what they do and to put laws in place (so to speak) for the correct and organised functions of matter.. resulting in my existence, producing my "self", as i know i cant do this then there is something beyond my experience physically to control all existence".

 

[Tiberius]

Well the point I was trying to make is that I see the Universe and everything in it as structured and to me implies intelligence, and so I assumed a sort of super consciousness that governs all this, I could ask you why it does not require a governing consciousness?

Structure can come about without any intelligence at all.

For example, ever wonder why, when you get a box of cornflakes, all the largest ones are at the top and the last ones to come out from the bottom are always the horrible crumb-like ones?

It's because of a sorting process. As the box is shaken, the cornflakes move a little. This opens up gaps between the flakes. Now, there are going to be more little gaps than big gaps (any gap that opens must start as a small gap, but not all will grow to become big gaps), so the little flakes will fall through first. it won't be often that there is a gap large enough for a big flake to fall through. So, the smaller flakes will tend to fall to the bottom of the box, and this is exactly where we find them.

An example of an ordered and structured result that requires NO intervening intelligence to create it!

I don't see why faith in something greater then you can be harmful, if it is not harmful faith in the first place then it should not offend anyone.

If you assume it must exist and this assumption blinds you to how the universe really works, then I'd say it is harmful.

The same kind of thing is responsible for the existence of life. Rather more complex than a shaking box of cornflakes, but the same idea of an undirected cause leading to complex results without the need for a creator. Do you understand how evolution works?

 

[Daviso452]

The True Self, Awareness, and Consciousness are all the same thing when fully understood.

Sentience implies Consciousness. It is not your ability to think and act that makes you sentient, but rather your Awareness of your thought and action. One who is not fully Aware is also not fully sentient as a result. Part of an egoic beings True Self is buried in the subconscious. Until the ego is defeated, Consciousness is broken. One's ability to make wise decisions is comprimised, because he cannot face his evil motives.

And for your examples of Awakened beings, I submit Jesus, Lao Tzu, Siddhartha Gautama, and Socrates. There are many more who have been forgotten by history. The Truth is one. It has gone by many names.

A bit late to the party. We already came to an agreement. And I do not agree with your argument because I do not believe in evil, and in actuality consider a person's inability to be aware as being due to the fact our mind's ability to manipulate how we perceive reality, and in general referring more to our instinct and not actual thought and logic. Such occurrences are Placebo effect, forer effect, and confirmation bias. Many people are subjected to these. A person who is truly self-aware does not result to these biological programs of our brain. No "god" or "higher power" involved.

 

[Daviso452]

Well the point I was trying to make is that I see the Universe and everything in it as structured and to me implies intelligence, and so I assumed a sort of super consciousness that governs all this, I could ask you why it does not require a governing consciousness?, I do not like to refer this "governing consciousness", as GOD, because the word GOD to me automatic implies a old man in heaven pointing fingers at what I do, or something like that, so I see this Universe as being pervaded by a force that we are yet to understand completely.

What I think many anti-God people here have to get out of there mind is that when the word GOD is said by someone that it does not always imply to the Biblical, Koranic or the superstitious "the man up there", kind of thing, I would go to the extent of saying that "GOD" does not exist, but that does not mean that all concepts of "GOD", are the same and incorrect.

And why do we have to be anti-GOD, What i think is because majority who try to justify there disbelief in a GOD are just having a negative reaction to the concept of GOD in the Biblical or Koranic sense, because you are forced to believe in a GOD that hurts people, is jealous, is wrathful and ect.ect., But that is just unfair to people who have a totally opposite view of what "GOD', is.

I don't see why faith in something greater then you can be harmful, if it is not harmful faith in the first place then it should not offend anyone.

Atheism is not anti-religion. Atheists do not believe there is no God. We just don't believe in God. We have a lack of belief. We just go where the evidence takes us. If it leads to a natural explanation, then we will go with that. Does it mean there is no God? Of course not! You cannot prove God does not exist. But you can prove, as Hawking puts it, that "God is unnecessary."

However, you stated that there is a higher power. We are not saying you are wrong; we just want you to back up that claim. We think that if it has no evidence, there is no reason to believe it.

 

[idav]

Atheism is not anti-religion. Atheists do not believe there is no God. We just don't believe in God. We have a lack of belief. We just go where the evidence takes us. If it leads to a natural explanation, then we will go with that. Does it mean there is no God? Of course not! You cannot prove God does not exist. But you can prove, as Hawking puts it, that "God is unnecessary."

However, you stated that there is a higher power. We are not saying you are wrong; we just want you to back up that claim. We think that if it has no evidence, there is no reason to believe it.

Are you sure you don't want to list all the various gods you don't believe in so we can be sure your not really a theist?

 

[9Westy9]

Oh, and to answer your question more shortly,, please read my entire post, i highlight below.

Doesn't mean that it can't have come about some other way though. Still I accept your belief as it is. I have no beef with that definition (or your other one) at all.