The Debate of God.

[godnotgod]

Hm, perhaps this thread should have stayed dead. I've gone back 30+ pages and it's all just a relentless stream of garbage.

The Holy Science Shadow consistently projects itself making anything else automatically pure garbage. I think it's safe to say that the next 30 pages will also appear as garbage to you, and that's a scientific prediction.

 

[godnotgod]

You must be the guy who steps out of the cave and sees the real world, only to declare, "No! This is all just more shadows!"

Ah, so you knew that what you were seeing were shadows all along, did you? It's called 'fooling yourself'. Isn't it comfy to be on the side of authority, with all its dead facts and knowledge?

Then how is it that lots of people who have tried this get completely different results?

Because. They are still in Identification, in which they are seeing reality through their personal views. When all such views drop away, they will see the same reality. Why should it be any different? The saltiness of the sea is the same everywhere.

If it works for you, fine. I'm happy for you. Hip hip hooray and all that. But it's still SUBJECTIVE.

No, it is not. The consciousness found in the hara is not that of a personal view because it does not form concepts about reality, like the thinking mind does. There can only be a subjective view where the concept of a self has been formed, which sees the world in terms of 'self' and 'other'.

Neither do you.

Of course, if you really do know so much, how about you put your wonderful knowledge to use and use it to develop new technology?

I mean, your knowledge DOES work when used like this, doesn't it?

Science and technology are currently married to priorities that are out of kilter with reality. They are largely exploitive of human desires and real needs. Getting in touch with our true natures first, instead of being lured on and on by the glitter of science and technology, would put our priorities in proper perspective. In other words, we are currently enslaved by science and technology, and it is getting worse, instead of science and technology being our servants. It has become what it is because we have been driven by desire, fear, ignorance, and greed, rather than by our true natures. So yes, the science and technology that would come about when driven by an enlightened populace would be in balance with the natural world, instead of having become a threat to our very existence on the planet.

I love this. You start by agreeing with me, then turn around and tell me that I'm wrong.

Oh, and you also made yet ANOTHER unsupported claim.

There is a big difference between 'part of the true nature of the universe' and 'true nature of the universe' itself.

Are you an intelligent being? From whence did you emerge?

When did I say that science has all the facts? When did I say that anyone has all the facts? I am saying (listen carefully, because I want you to get this, okay?) SCIENCE IS THE BEST AND ONLY TOOL WE HAVE FOR DETERMINE FACTS.

So what? I have no objection to the gathering of facts, but facts cannot, and never will, tell us what the true nature of reality actually IS. The true nature of reality is not confined to mere facts. Besides that, Quantum Physics is showing us that what we thought were facts no longer apply.

While science may be the best fact-finding tool, it is not the best tool for understanding. We need another kind of view in order to interpret those facts by placing them in the correct perspective. Science cannot do this because it's methodology is a very narrow, highly controlled one.

Glad to see you are finally starting to make some sense. Yes, science is a wonderful way to learn the truth about the universe.

I did not say that. I was alluding to your view because you asked if there was another way.

So tell me: what is the 'truth' about the universe that you think science has uncovered?

When did we have the discussion about time? Are we having it now?

Yes, it is the same discussion. When you realize your true nature, you realize simultaneously that reality is timeless, because your true nature is unborn, ungrown, and deathless. It is not a product of history or memory like the self is, but emerges, alive and whole, out of this eternal Present Moment.

 

[PolyHedral]

You confuse scientific fact with what the facts are about...

If we do get a theory of everything sorted out, it will not be about the universe; it will not describe anything at all.
It will define the universe. It will be the thing "the facts are about."

It'll also eventually tell you exactly what meditation is doing - can you tell me exactly what quantum physics does?

 

[godnotgod]

If we do get a theory of everything sorted out, it will not be about the universe; it will not describe anything at all.
It will define the universe. It will be the thing "the facts are about."

It'll also eventually tell you exactly what meditation is doing - can you tell me exactly what quantum physics does?

We already have such a source. It's called 'the universe', which, by definition, is everything. So we don't need any 'theory of everything' since we already have the real McCoy. Since each of us is a microcosm of the entire universe (watch the red flags go down on this one, LOL), the suggestion is to go inward, instead of outward to find what we need to understand.

Both meditation and Quantum Physics show us that what we think we see, is not what we think.

Maybe meditation is not doing much of anything, other than standing perfectly still to see things exactly as they are, or, in the words of Zen Master Shunryu Suzuki, 'seeing things as it is', which tells us that all 'things' are actually one.

 

[ER.Robin Zoe]

Though I label myself as an atheist,a disbeliever in God,but I personally do not feel comfortable with that title.Deep down in my heart,there is a profound emptiness Although I am rich,have a lot of money,a lot of friends and all the material things,I am not as happy as I should be.Being an atheist,I do not have to perform any religious duties,ceremonies,etc and I have no rules to follow and I do not have to remember God. Yet I do not feel free.My heart feels loaded with a burden that is indescribable.there seems to be a huge void in my life without feeling the support of God.What is this,I wonder!I have forsaken christianity for there i find are many abstruse and logically unexplainable concepts,which even after consulting several priests ,I couldn't find an answer to.I do not believe Jesus to be God(he never claimed to be so.)but I love and respect him and his teachings a lot.

For a time period I even believed in Darwinism but I found flaws wtihtin his theory of evolution as well. I have not come across even a single fact that can explain how life came into existence,the concept of death or soul ,neither have I ever found those facts that oppose creationism(i am talking abt established facts not theories).I do believe that evolution could have taken place,but can't accept the evolution of man from apes.Imagine having monkeys as you forefathers!I also wonder that how could the whole universe come into existence on its own and yet have such an impeccable system of laws on the basis of which it worksif it has come into existence on its own,why is there only perfection and no error or shortcomings.And why did universe come into existence.Why do not sun or moon or earth collide with each other.Who has created for them fixed,flawless orbits?who created the laws of of universe.why has universe come into existence at all ,since nothing happens without a reason ?Who created the original matter from which was created the universe?If we have come to life on our own,how has death come into existence?What happens to us after death?why do we and not other animals, have free will?THere are many such questions which are yet unanswered to me and have really made my life a ''QUESTION MARK".I do not find a purpose in life.Is It just about eating and drinking and letting the world go ruin?No one has ever been able to evade death,even Darwin himself!
I know that one day even I would willy nilly meet death.What after that.What purpose did I fulfil?What for had I lived?
I am so confused,I am searcing for my Lord.I feel that he exists and is watching me all the time .I know that science cannot deny the existence of God.on the contrary,it proves the opposite. THEREFORE,I am looking for Him by combining Science and logic and I am also studying major world religions.I am too far from christianity and do not feel like returning back to it.Atheism too seems to have disillusioned me.Next I am considering to study Judaism and Islam.Other religions that believe in paganism and idolatory seem repusive to me.

Let's where this quest of truth takes me.Wish me luck!
Ciao!

 

[crocusj]

Though I label myself as an atheist,a disbeliever in God,but I personally do not feel comfortable with that title.Deep down in my heart,there is a profound emptiness Although I am rich,have a lot of money,a lot of friends and all the material things,I am not as happy as I should be.Being an atheist,I do not have to perform any religious duties,ceremonies,etc and I have no rules to follow and I do not have to remember God. Yet I do not feel free.My heart feels loaded with a burden that is indescribable.there seems to be a huge void in my life without feeling the support of God.What is this,I wonder!I have forsaken christianity for there i find are many abstruse and logically unexplainable concepts,which even after consulting several priests ,I couldn't find an answer to.I do not believe Jesus to be God(he never claimed to be so.)but I love and respect him and his teachings a lot.

For a time period I even believed in Darwinism but I found flaws wtihtin his theory of evolution as well. I have not come across even a single fact that can explain how life came into existence,the concept of death or soul ,neither have I ever found those facts that oppose creationism(i am talking abt established facts not theories).I do believe that evolution could have taken place,but can't accept the evolution of man from apes.Imagine having monkeys as you forefathers!I also wonder that how could the whole universe come into existence on its own and yet have such an impeccable system of laws on the basis of which it worksif it has come into existence on its own,why is there only perfection and no error or shortcomings.And why did universe come into existence.Why do not sun or moon or earth collide with each other.Who has created for them fixed,flawless orbits?who created the laws of of universe.why has universe come into existence at all ,since nothing happens without a reason ?Who created the original matter from which was created the universe?If we have come to life on our own,how has death come into existence?What happens to us after death?why do we and not other animals, have free will?THere are many such questions which are yet unanswered to me and have really made my life a ''QUESTION MARK".I do not find a purpose in life.Is It just about eating and drinking and letting the world go ruin?No one has ever been able to evade death,even Darwin himself!
I know that one day even I would willy nilly meet death.What after that.What purpose did I fulfil?What for had I lived?
I am so confused,I am searcing for my Lord.I feel that he exists and is watching me all the time .I know that science cannot deny the existence of God.on the contrary,it proves the opposite. THEREFORE,I am looking for Him by combining Science and logic and I am also studying major world religions.I am too far from christianity and do not feel like returning back to it.Atheism too seems to have disillusioned me.Next I am considering to study Judaism and Islam.Other religions that believe in paganism and idolatory seem repusive to me.

Let's where this quest of truth takes me.Wish me luck!
Ciao!

Good luck, mate, 'cos most of them go with the monkeys.....

 

[godnotgod]

Though I label myself as an atheist,a disbeliever in God,but I personally do not feel comfortable with that title.Deep down in my heart,there is a profound emptiness Although I am rich,have a lot of money,a lot of friends and all the material things,I am not as happy as I should be.Being an atheist,I do not have to perform any religious duties,ceremonies,etc and I have no rules to follow and I do not have to remember God. Yet I do not feel free.My heart feels loaded with a burden that is indescribable.there seems to be a huge void in my life without feeling the support of God.What is this,I wonder!I have forsaken christianity for there i find are many abstruse and logically unexplainable concepts,which even after consulting several priests ,I couldn't find an answer to.I do not believe Jesus to be God(he never claimed to be so.)but I love and respect him and his teachings a lot.

For a time period I even believed in Darwinism but I found flaws wtihtin his theory of evolution as well. I have not come across even a single fact that can explain how life came into existence,the concept of death or soul ,neither have I ever found those facts that oppose creationism(i am talking abt established facts not theories).I do believe that evolution could have taken place,but can't accept the evolution of man from apes.Imagine having monkeys as you forefathers!I also wonder that how could the whole universe come into existence on its own and yet have such an impeccable system of laws on the basis of which it worksif it has come into existence on its own,why is there only perfection and no error or shortcomings.And why did universe come into existence.Why do not sun or moon or earth collide with each other.Who has created for them fixed,flawless orbits?who created the laws of of universe.why has universe come into existence at all ,since nothing happens without a reason ?Who created the original matter from which was created the universe?If we have come to life on our own,how has death come into existence?What happens to us after death?why do we and not other animals, have free will?THere are many such questions which are yet unanswered to me and have really made my life a ''QUESTION MARK".I do not find a purpose in life.Is It just about eating and drinking and letting the world go ruin?No one has ever been able to evade death,even Darwin himself!
I know that one day even I would willy nilly meet death.What after that.What purpose did I fulfil?What for had I lived?
I am so confused,I am searcing for my Lord.I feel that he exists and is watching me all the time .I know that science cannot deny the existence of God.on the contrary,it proves the opposite. THEREFORE,I am looking for Him by combining Science and logic and I am also studying major world religions.I am too far from christianity and do not feel like returning back to it.Atheism too seems to have disillusioned me.Next I am considering to study Judaism and Islam.Other religions that believe in paganism and idolatory seem repusive to me.

Let's where this quest of truth takes me.Wish me luck!
Ciao!

You're trying to put too much on your plate all at once, and the more aggressively you pursue them, the further away what you seek will become.

My advice to you is as follows:

Slow down and focus on each moment that comes your way. Pay particular attention to how YOU deal with each event during the day.

For now, don't try to answer the great questions, such as origins and purpose. Just focus on being here, now, fully and aware in each moment that you find yourself in.

The question as to the existence or non-existence of a God has been going on since Day One. It will still be here tomorrow. So instead of wasting your energy on such pursuits, do not take any position at all. As the Buddha said:

"Think neither god, nor not-god"

That should free you to enjoy more of your time, and don't worry.

Enjoy your wealth while you have it, but don't allow it to rule your life. If you can share some of it, that alone is reward. Try transforming some selfish desires unselfishly outward toward others, and when you give, don't give with ulterior motive or expectation of reward in mind. Just give, totally and completely.

Take up some activity that is associated with your breath and your consciousness, such as yoga or meditation. That should alleviate some of your heartache, but love is the key, especially divine love. You already have everything you need to be happy. You just need to uncover it inside, allow it to unfold, and realize it.

'Love' for Jesus easily become Idolatry. Listen to his teachings, but do not follow the idol.

Think of the confusion and doubt as good things. They are a sign that your mind is still open, and have'nt settled on dogma.

re: 'searching for my Lord': Look inside, and remember: what you are seeking is exactly what is causing you to seek.

The world is none other than yourself.

Death: pay more attention to what is right in front of you right now, instead of fretting over a death in some future, living a full life right up to the last moment of it. That way, when death comes, you can experience that moment to the fullest as well. Don't cheat yourself!

You won't find what you're looking for in any doctrine, religion, or science. In fact, they may even confuse you more. You already are in full possession of what you seek, right now, but you just don't realize it. When you slow down and quiet the mind, the frantic aspect of the search dissolves itself away, and calm will come into you, but you have to allow it to do so. It's like letting the mud churned up by the mind settle to the bottom of the pond so you can have a clear view.

Purpose? Living fully IN the moment (not FOR the moment!) is its own purpose. If you go on searching, you will have lived your life in vain, never finding.

Try to remember the Parable of the Lilies of the Field in which Jesus told his followers not to worry about tomorrow, and to pay attention to what is in front of you today. Tomorrow will take care of itself when you take care of what is right under your nose. We call it the Wisdom of Insecurity.

There's nothing to get or figure out and no one to get anything or figure anything out. There is just what is right in front of you, here, now, as it will always be right in front of you, here, now. That is all we have, and it is enough.

And...oh, yes....there's a little joke about the chimps who are only 1% to 2% different than man in genetics:

Seems God was pondering which attributes to assign to man, when one of his angels looked up and said: "Oh, don't bother! Just toss in a little chimp DNA and let it go at that!

 

[Heathen Hammer]

....all based on desire which is already present.

Impossible if the object of the desire was unknown previously.

 

[Tiberius]

Ah, so you knew that what you were seeing were shadows all along, did you? It's called 'fooling yourself'. Isn't it comfy to be on the side of authority, with all its dead facts and knowledge?

You miss the point completely.

Because. They are still in Identification, in which they are seeing reality through their personal views. When all such views drop away, they will see the same reality. Why should it be any different? The saltiness of the sea is the same everywhere.

Ah yes! You are right, and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong! Your logic is not like our Earth logic.

No, it is not. The consciousness found in the hara is not that of a personal view because it does not form concepts about reality, like the thinking mind does. There can only be a subjective view where the concept of a self has been formed, which sees the world in terms of 'self' and 'other'.

It seems that you are making up new definitions for words.

Science and technology are currently married to priorities that are out of kilter with reality. They are largely exploitive of human desires and real needs. Getting in touch with our true natures first, instead of being lured on and on by the glitter of science and technology, would put our priorities in proper perspective. In other words, we are currently enslaved by science and technology, and it is getting worse, instead of science and technology being our servants. It has become what it is because we have been driven by desire, fear, ignorance, and greed, rather than by our true natures. So yes, the science and technology that would come about when driven by an enlightened populace would be in balance with the natural world, instead of having become a threat to our very existence on the planet.

If they are out of kilter with reality, why do they work?

There is a big difference between 'part of the true nature of the universe' and 'true nature of the universe' itself.

This is completely irrelevant to what I was saying.

Are you an intelligent being? From whence did you emerge?

Irrelevant.

So what? I have no objection to the gathering of facts, but facts cannot, and never will, tell us what the true nature of reality actually IS. The true nature of reality is not confined to mere facts. Besides that, Quantum Physics is showing us that what we thought were facts no longer apply.

And you provide not a single shred of support for any of these claims. As usual.

While science may be the best fact-finding tool, it is not the best tool for understanding. We need another kind of view in order to interpret those facts by placing them in the correct perspective. Science cannot do this because it's methodology is a very narrow, highly controlled one.

More unsupported claims...

I did not say that. I was alluding to your view because you asked if there was another way.

So tell me: what is the 'truth' about the universe that you think science has uncovered?

Everything science has uncovered which withstands the vigorous attempts to disprove it is truth. Gravity is truth, as are the equations that tell us how objects move when affected by gravity. Evolution is truth. The equations that allow us to predict the behaviour of subatomic particles are truth.

Yes, it is the same discussion. When you realize your true nature, you realize simultaneously that reality is timeless, because your true nature is unborn, ungrown, and deathless. It is not a product of history or memory like the self is, but emerges, alive and whole, out of this eternal Present Moment.

So the posts that I wrote and posted several weeks ago, am I posting them now?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I don't mean it in the way you think. (ie 'old saw'). We are talking about a spiritual path, not a physical one. In this case, when one sets foot onto the path, one is already there. Standing still makes it even better.

I know what you are talking about. I was not talking of a physical path; I was using the concept of a physical path to dismember your 'old saw' metaphor. Good gods, are you this tedious in real life conversation?

You confuse scientific fact with what the facts are about, and that is the most 'authoritative' kind of psycho-babble, which is just so much mumbo-jumbo to boot..

When you get around to repenting actual scientific fact, let us know. Up until now you claim scientific fact is antithetical to learning what the truth is.
What you presented in your musings was the opposite of scientific fact.
Facts are about something... this has never been something I have lost sight of. Facts are the basis of any scientific theory; I am wholly familiar with the idea. It is you who are claiming that there is some underverse hidden, and that examining what we can, is somehow simply delusion, Despite being prodded you have never been able to present any reason why things would be hidden; no cause, no source, no connection to an unguided, or guided for that matter, impetus to prevent us from being able to ascertain the truth. You appear quite confident.. yet, your position has nothing to support it, by any means at all. Not even from yourself.

The description is not the described, but I know you like to think it is. .

Strawman fail
At no point have I confused the two.

I am not going to explain the obvious any further. If you want to know more, do some research on Taoism and the Uncarved Block. It's all over the internet. Bye....

Since it's been demonstrated here to be garbage, I will do no such thing.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Though I label myself as an atheist,a disbeliever in God,but I personally do not feel comfortable with that title.Deep down in my heart,there is a profound emptiness Although I am rich,have a lot of money,a lot of friends and all the material things,I am not as happy as I should be.Being an atheist,I do not have to perform any religious duties,ceremonies,etc and I have no rules to follow and I do not have to remember God. Yet I do not feel free.My heart feels loaded with a burden that is indescribable.there seems to be a huge void in my life without feeling the support of God.What is this,I wonder!I have forsaken christianity for there i find are many abstruse and logically unexplainable concepts,which even after consulting several priests ,I couldn't find an answer to.I do not believe Jesus to be God(he never claimed to be so.)but I love and respect him and his teachings a lot.

For a time period I even believed in Darwinism but I found flaws wtihtin his theory of evolution as well. I have not come across even a single fact that can explain how life came into existence,the concept of death or soul ,neither have I ever found those facts that oppose creationism(i am talking abt established facts not theories).I do believe that evolution could have taken place,but can't accept the evolution of man from apes.Imagine having monkeys as you forefathers!I also wonder that how could the whole universe come into existence on its own and yet have such an impeccable system of laws on the basis of which it worksif it has come into existence on its own,why is there only perfection and no error or shortcomings.And why did universe come into existence.Why do not sun or moon or earth collide with each other.Who has created for them fixed,flawless orbits?who created the laws of of universe.why has universe come into existence at all ,since nothing happens without a reason ?Who created the original matter from which was created the universe?If we have come to life on our own,how has death come into existence?What happens to us after death?why do we and not other animals, have free will?THere are many such questions which are yet unanswered to me and have really made my life a ''QUESTION MARK".I do not find a purpose in life.Is It just about eating and drinking and letting the world go ruin?No one has ever been able to evade death,even Darwin himself!
I know that one day even I would willy nilly meet death.What after that.What purpose did I fulfil?What for had I lived?
I am so confused,I am searcing for my Lord.I feel that he exists and is watching me all the time .I know that science cannot deny the existence of God.on the contrary,it proves the opposite. THEREFORE,I am looking for Him by combining Science and logic and I am also studying major world religions.I am too far from christianity and do not feel like returning back to it.Atheism too seems to have disillusioned me.Next I am considering to study Judaism and Islam.Other religions that believe in paganism and idolatory seem repusive to me.

Let's where this quest of truth takes me.Wish me luck!
Ciao!

Lies, you are no atheist, this is typical christian false flag propaganda

 

[Heathen Hammer]

The Holy Science Shadow consistently projects itself making anything else automatically pure garbage. I think it's safe to say that the next 30 pages will also appear as garbage to you, and that's a scientific prediction.

Why, do you intend to drone on for another 30 as well?

 

[godnotgod]

Why, do you intend to drone on for another 30 as well?

Depends on what others post that I can sink my teeth into, I suppose. You?

 

[godnotgod]

Impossible if the object of the desire was unknown previously.

Love at first sight, not thought.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Love at first sight does not fit your 'desire there first' paradigm. 'First sight'. The first sight makes one aware of what is available in the environment. You then think about that sighting.
In addition it would play havoc with your repeated complaints about Time and facts/truth.


My statement remains.

 

[godnotgod]

You miss the point completely.

It was rather humorous.

Ah yes! You are right, and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong! Your logic is not like our Earth logic.

'Earth logic' seems to have the majority of mankind locked in tragically delusive pursuits, driven by attractive glitter. Not too logical, I am afraid.

It seems that you are making up new definitions for words.

Which word?

If they are out of kilter with reality, why do they work?

They don't. Technology and science are literally killing us, while at the same time making us believe they are our salvation.

This is completely irrelevant to what I was saying.

What do you mean? It IS what you said.

Irrelevant.

You questioned whether the universe is intelligent or not. Since you emerged from it, I think my question is perfectly relevant.

And you provide not a single shred of support for any of these claims. As usual.

Well, have we yet seen science and its factual knowledge provide any clue whatsoever to the true nature of reality? I don't see any, and keep asking you to show it to me.

More unsupported claims...

Then show me how science can provide the understanding we are talking about.

Everything science has uncovered which withstands the vigorous attempts to disprove it is truth. Gravity is truth, as are the equations that tell us how objects move when affected by gravity. Evolution is truth. The equations that allow us to predict the behaviour of subatomic particles are truth.

You're confusing facts with truth. Facts are dead as they are based on the past. That is why you can predict the behavior of phenomena. Truth is a living thing, and emerges from the Present Moment, and has no memory or history.

Gravity and evolution are facts but cannot reveal the truth about the nature of things. We know how they behave; we can predict their behavior. But we don't understand what they actually ARE.

So the posts that I wrote and posted several weeks ago, am I posting them now?

When you posted them, it was now. Your memory of your having posted them is what you call 'the past'. It does not exist as a reality.

 

[cottage]

Mystical knowledge, or better, awareness/insight, is simply seeing things as they are, prior to the mind forming any conceptual frameworks. It does not accumulate facts or data, but simply sees. There is no object of knowing; that which is known and that which is knowing are one and the same. Seeing is the realization that there are no separate 'things', contrary to how our conditioned minds see reality via conceptual frameworks. There is no 'knower' of knowledge. There is no history, no memory of things past, and so it is an experience in and of the living Present Moment, which is always complete.

Alan Watts elaborates:

Metaphysic: The indefinable basis of knowledge. Metaphysical knowledge or "realization" is an intense clarity of attention to that indefinable and immediate "point" of knowledge which is always "now", and from which all other knowledge is elaborated by reflective thought. A consciousness of "life" in which the mind is not trying to grasp or define what it knows.

Previously you’ve been claiming knowledge of ‘our true nature’ as something existing in terms of certitude: the ‘Absolute’ you called it. That surely is an object of knowing? Now if you were just making the point that the experiential world is reducible to propositions that are neither necessarily true nor necessarily false as in the case of concepts such as time, space and causation, then that is already acknowledged without the need for it to be cloaked in mystical explanations.
But from what I see you are not simply expounding an epistemological viewpoint, which would be in the general realm of metaphysics, but making a claim to the truth of a mystical belief. In sum, you are asserting that there is a state or condition that exists independent of our ability to perceive it as a sense-content (which may or may not be true), and claiming this innate knowledge, as an altered state of consciousness, to be certain truth. And yet you are not giving us any information about the external world but just indirect information concerning the content of your mind, none of which you can show to be indubitable, i.e. ‘Absolute’ or certain. I'm sorry but I'm finding it impossible to discover anything substantial or meaningful in your account.

P.S. You say there is only pure reality, and from a strictly philosophical view the argument that there is no ‘I’ would seem to be correct (Descartes was wrong to assume the cogito when all that could be arrived at is: ‘There is thinking’), and yet throughout your posts we see numerous references to the individual and the enlightened ones. Are you saying consciousness is impersonal, or personal yet disembodied?

 

[godnotgod]

When you get around to repenting actual scientific fact, let us know. Up until now you claim scientific fact is antithetical to learning what the truth is.

I respect scientific fact for what what it is, but I don't see where it points to what the true nature of reality is. Even models such as Stephen Hawking's, which demonstrates a self-generating universe does not tell us that. Even if we had a complete collection of verifiable facts describing how the universe came into existence, we would still just be left with a body of facts which tell us nothing.

What you presented in your musings was the opposite of scientific fact.

No, I did not. Facts are still what they are. But if, for example, the universe is illusory in nature, the facts would still operate in the same way. There is no contradiction. However, science itself seems to be in contradiction, as Quantum Physics is overturning classical logic.

Facts are about something... this has never been something I have lost sight of. Facts are the basis of any scientific theory; I am wholly familiar with the idea. It is you who are claiming that there is some underverse hidden, and that examining what we can, is somehow simply delusion, Despite being prodded you have never been able to present any reason why things would be hidden; no cause, no source, no connection to an unguided, or guided for that matter, impetus to prevent us from being able to ascertain the truth. You appear quite confident.. yet, your position has nothing to support it, by any means at all. Not even from yourself.

Do facts reveal the true nature of reality?

Strawman fail
At no point have I confused the two.

So facts, which are descriptions of reality, are reality itself?

Since it's been demonstrated here to be garbage, I will do no such thing.

I don't see that you have 'demonstrated' any such thing. All you have succeeded in demonstrating is your misunderstanding of a simple, easy to understand metaphor.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I respect scientific fact for what what it is, but I don't see where it points to what the true nature of reality is. Even models such as Stephen Hawking's, which demonstrates a self-generating universe does not tell us that. Even if we had a complete collection of verifiable facts describing how the universe came into existence, we would still just be left with a body of facts which tell us nothing.

Well, why do you inssit on presuming there is another nature, when there is no factual reason to think so?
And, you're wrong about something: this body of facts DOES tell us something.

No, I did not. Facts are still what they are. But if, for example, the universe is illusory in nature, the facts would still operate in the same way. There is no contradiction. However, science itself seems to be in contradiction, as Quantum Physics is overturning classical logic.

That final sentence needs clarification by you.
As for an illusory universe: barring again the total lack of evidence for such, if the entire universe were literally illusory, your feeble efforts would never discern such a 'fact'. This conundrum has been dogging you for tens of pages now.

Do facts reveal the true nature of reality?

Yes.

So facts, which are descriptions of reality, are reality itself?

No, and why do you bore me by repeating this strawman, which I have distanced myself from several times now?

I don't see that you have 'demonstrated' any such thing. All you have succeeded in demonstrating is your misunderstanding of a simple, easy to understand metaphor.

I have demonstrated my understanding of it by shredding it, and showing it as meaningless. And I have demonstrated teh meaninglessness of your Tao, by stating how wrong you are about my desires, and my relation to you, and about the self-evident state of 'facts', all of which appear to be some facet of your taoism.

You may notice that I am not the only other non-One person who is hounding you and your inability to support what you say. Perhaps you should pay attention to this 'fact'?

 

[godnotgod]

Love at first sight does not fit your 'desire there first' paradigm. 'First sight'. The first sight makes one aware of what is available in the environment. You then think about that sighting.
In addition it would play havoc with your repeated complaints about Time and facts/truth.


My statement remains.

Sight is first, then thinking.