The Debate of God.

[godnotgod]

Yes.


Dreams are generally inconsistent and discontinuous.

So is waking life. You don't seem to understand the question: How do you know that a dream is a dream, and that you have awoken from it? What is it about your awakened state that shows you the difference between the dream state, and the awakened state?

 

[godnotgod]

Really?

You are the one who keeps talking about some 'next life'. What do you mean?

 

[Thief]

You are the one who keeps talking about some 'next life'. What do you mean?

Really!....you're in a debate forum...about God....
and you ask of me about the next life?
What's up with that?!

So perhaps you have the impression your last breath is indeed the end....
the final end.

Nothing more will come of the this life?... and your fate is the eternal darkness of the grave?

You don't this life as a learning experienced aimed at producing a fresh and unique spirit?

 

[godnotgod]

Really!....you're in a debate forum...about God....
and you ask of me about the next life?
What's up with that?!

You must be talking about the Christian idea of God, wherein one dies and goes to heaven or hell in an afterlife in some future. No one knows if this is actually the case, as no one has died and returned to tell the tale. It is a RELIGIOUS BELIEF ONLY. What do you base such a belief upon?

So perhaps you have the impression your last breath is indeed the end....
the final end.

All ends are beginnings, but you are looking at the question in terms of LINEAR TIME. We do not die in the future; we live and die in the Present Moment, and whatever occurs after that also occurs in the Present Moment. My question to you is: who is it that lives and dies?

Nothing more will come of the this life?... and your fate is the eternal darkness of the grave?

Excuse me, but your body goes to the grave, not your consciousness. Since 'you' as you are now will no longer exist after death, you won't experience the grave as 'eternal darkness'. Why are you so concerned about perpetuating the self as you now know it? What more do you want to have 'come of this life'? If that is your concern, then perhaps you are not living your life fully in each moment. You have residue being carried forth into the present from the past, which you want to project into the future. Why?

You don't this life as a learning experienced aimed at producing a fresh and unique spirit?

How do you propose to apply any such learning to your new spiritual life? You are carrying around old baggage which will only spoil any freshness of your new experience. Such learning pales in comparison as it is from the dead past. Leave your former life; leave your concerns about death and the grave, and simply BE HERE, NOW in this eternal Present Moment, where there is no history, no memory of things past, where all is always fresh and new and on the cutting edge. You don't need 'learning' to experience it. Just come as you are and leave your heavy baggage behind.

"When you do something, you should burn yourself completely, like a good bonfire, leaving no trace of yourself."
Shunryu Suzuki, founder San Francisco Zen Center
*****

Alan Watts comments on "I"

"I am ever reluctant to admit that I am dead, my only
recourse is to work and struggle to give this "has/been" a
semblance of life to make it continue, move, get somewhere.
But because it is dead, and has all the fixity and permanence
of an unchangeable fact, this "I" can only go on being what
it was. Like a machine, it can only repeat itself ad nauseam,
however fast it may be run.

Thus when the dead man talks, he gives us the facts; he tells
all and says nothing. But when the living man talks, he gives
us poetry and myth. That is to say, he gives us a word from the
unconscious not from the psychoanalytical garbage^can, but
from the living world which is not to be remembered, of which
no trace can be found in history, in the record of facts, because
it is not yet dead. The world of myth is past, is "once upon a
time*', in a symbolic sense only in the sense that it is behind us,
not as time past is behind us, but as the brain which cannot
be seen is behind the eyes which see, as behind memory is that
which remembers and cannot be remembered. Thus poetry
and myth are accounts of the real world which is, as distinct
from the dead world which was, and therefore will be. The
form of myth is magical and wonderful because the real world
is magical and wonderful in the sense that we cannot pin it
down, that we do not understand it because it under/stands us."

from: 'Myth and Ritual in Christianity', by Alan Watts

 

[Thief]

You must be talking about the Christian idea of God, wherein one dies and goes to heaven or hell in an afterlife in some future. No one knows if this is actually the case, as no one has died and returned to tell the tale. It is a RELIGIOUS BELIEF ONLY. What do you base such a belief upon?



All ends are beginnings, but you are looking at the question in terms of LINEAR TIME. We do not die in the future; we live and die in the Present Moment, and whatever occurs after that also occurs in the Present Moment. My question to you is: who is it that lives and dies?



Excuse me, but your body goes to the grave, not your consciousness. Since 'you' as you are now will no longer exist after death, you won't experience the grave as 'eternal darkness'. Why are you so concerned about perpetuating the self as you now know it? What more do you want to have 'come of this life'? If that is your concern, then perhaps you are not living your life fully in each moment. You have residue being carried forth into the present from the past, which you want to project into the future. Why?



How do you propose to apply any such learning to your new spiritual life? You are carrying around old baggage which will only spoil any freshness of your new experience. Such learning pales in comparison as it is from the dead past. Leave your former life; leave your concerns about death and the grave, and simply BE HERE, NOW in this eternal Present Moment, where there is no history, no memory of things past, where all is always fresh and new and on the cutting edge. You don't need 'learning' to experience it. Just come as you are and leave your heavy baggage behind.

"When you do something, you should burn yourself completely, like a good bonfire, leaving no trace of yourself."
Shunryu Suzuki, founder San Francisco Zen Center
*****

Alan Watts comments on "I"

"I am ever reluctant to admit that I am dead, my only
recourse is to work and struggle to give this "has/been" a
semblance of life to make it continue, move, get somewhere.
But because it is dead, and has all the fixity and permanence
of an unchangeable fact, this "I" can only go on being what
it was. Like a machine, it can only repeat itself ad nauseam,
however fast it may be run.

Thus when the dead man talks, he gives us the facts; he tells
all and says nothing. But when the living man talks, he gives
us poetry and myth. That is to say, he gives us a word from the
unconscious not from the psychoanalytical garbage^can, but
from the living world which is not to be remembered, of which
no trace can be found in history, in the record of facts, because
it is not yet dead. The world of myth is past, is "once upon a
time*', in a symbolic sense only in the sense that it is behind us,
not as time past is behind us, but as the brain which cannot
be seen is behind the eyes which see, as behind memory is that
which remembers and cannot be remembered. Thus poetry
and myth are accounts of the real world which is, as distinct
from the dead world which was, and therefore will be. The
form of myth is magical and wonderful because the real world
is magical and wonderful in the sense that we cannot pin it
down, that we do not understand it because it under/stands us."

from: 'Myth and Ritual in Christianity', by Alan Watts

How about.....this

So a rich man shows up at the Gate and Peter says....
'You can enter but the baggage has to be left behind.'

'But it's only two bags, and they're small'

'No' says Peter. 'It's simply not allowed. No baggage'.

'Well, go ask your Boss. We go back a long way.
What would He say if you don't let me in?'

'Okay fine. I'll go ask. But this is highly unusual.'

A moment passes, and Peter returns to say....
'It's odd, but He said it would be alright.'
'But, just to be sure, let me see what you've got in the bags.'

After a quick peek, Peter lets him pass.

Then an angel comes asking, having seen a rich man with baggage.
And Peter says...
'Yeah, I know...I don't get it either.'
Why would you bring your own paving bricks?'

 

[Thief]

Or how about this.....from a thread I started...I quote myself.

I'll put this thread in debate as questions are sure to rise....
but for the most part, see if you can describe as a snapshot...
what you expect to see when you get 'there'.

For example....I've heard discussion that no matter what....we go to heaven.

THAT, I find hard to believe.

Picture yourself as Hitler....yes you can.
You make it through the gate and are escorted all around heaven.

Later that evening, you are invited to supper...with 'thirteen' others.
As you dip your bread in the bowl, a Carpenter is doing likewise.
You turn to use another bowl...and Judas is doing so as well.

(note the.... 'look in the eye'.... part)

Sounds like fun!....don't you think so!

 

[Thief]

Or are you expecting to relinquish all that you are....
No memories....no dreams.....no expectations....

And you then expect to continue into the next life as if a blank mind?

And the focus of becoming a unique person has absolutely no purpose?

And then of course, the creation of Man (which does produce a unique spirit on each occasion) is a complete fraud?

So on the next occasion when you look yourself in the mirror....
there isn't really anything there?
You are a lie unto yourself?

 

[godnotgod]

Or are you expecting to relinquish all that you are....
No memories....no dreams.....no expectations....

And you then expect to continue into the next life as if a blank mind?

And the focus of becoming a unique person has absolutely no purpose?

And then of course, the creation of Man (which does produce a unique spirit on each occasion) is a complete fraud?

So on the next occasion when you look yourself in the mirror....
there isn't really anything there?
You are a lie unto yourself?

Your descriptions are all conjecture based on... what? Think about what your concepts of a so-called 'next life' are based upon, and why you have a need to maintain such ideas.

The point of living is here, now, not in some imaginary future. THIS right in front of you is what is real. Live it, fully and completely, so that you are fulfilled NOW. Then you will be ready to experience the next moment as it unfurls, without any concept of what it will be, without any expectation of reward, which only spoils the experience. As long as you continue to nurture fantasies, you will never awaken to the rich life you have already been given to live now. It is already complete, so there is nothing to 'get'; no 'heaven' as reward for 'good moral behavior' or hell for 'evil moral behavior'. Those are merely imaginary concepts we like to stoke the fires of to serve our egos. When the ego dissolves, there is no more self to gain or lose anything. There is only this complete eternal Present Moment, as it has always been, forever and forever, and it is quite sufficient. Anything else pales in comparison.

Only when you completely empty yourself of all of your beliefs, concepts, and opinions about what reality is, can you be fulfilled, and fulfillment can only occur in this present moment. It is nothing that you can imagine, no matter what you may think.

You are already a unique person, but underneath, that uniqueness, you are the same as everyone and everything else; Nothing Special. Just become who you already are and that will be purpose enough. What more do you want? You can't even handle the present moment, let alone any 'next life'.

If you think you are only a unique creation, without any shared common substance, then yes, you are a complete fraud.

You are a lie unto yourself if when you look into the mirror and see something you only imagine to be who you are. When you at last see that you have been an actor who has taken the role he has been playing much too seriously, you might enjoy a good laugh at your own expense, and then proceed to wake up from your sleep to discover who you really are. It is then that the real excitement begins.

The fact of the matter is that you know nothing about any 'next life'. All you know for sure is that you are here, now. So if that is the case, then you should proceed to actually be here, now. Anything else is delusion. The past is dead; the future non-existent. All you have...and I mean ALL you really have...is what is right in front of you now. It can be gone in the next moment. Live it before it is gone forever. So what do you propose to do?

Think of it this way: that the Divine Essence is playing all the infinitely diverse parts of the universe all at once, and those parts include you and I. It is playing each one as a unique manifestation of itself, but beneath all the masks, it is the One Divine Essence playing the exciting cosmic game of Hide and Seek with itself. What could be more compelling than that. Just get with the program, but never forget who you are underneath the mask, not even for one moment.

 

[godnotgod]

Story:

A man dies and goes to heaven. Approaching the Pearly Gates, he begins to knock loudly. From within, a voice queries: "Who is it?"

The man replies: "It is ME, Lord....ME!"

"Sorry, there are no 'ME's on our list...please go away"

Perplexed, the man leaves and stays away for an entire week. Finally, he returns and proceeds once again to knock loudly on the Gates.

"Yes? Who goes there?" comes a voice from within.

"ME, Lord... you know...ME! ME! ME!"

"Nope! Never heard of you...BEGONE!" replies the voice.

At this the man goes away for a full year. At long last, he returns, and gently taps at the Gates.

"Who goes there?" asks the voice.

"Why, it is none other then YOU, Oh Lord!", at which the Gates slowly swing wide open.

 

[godnotgod]

Or are you expecting to relinquish all that you are....
No memories....no dreams.....no expectations....

And you then expect to continue into the next life as if a blank mind?

And the focus of becoming a unique person has absolutely no purpose?

And then of course, the creation of Man (which does produce a unique spirit on each occasion) is a complete fraud?

So on the next occasion when you look yourself in the mirror....
there isn't really anything there?
You are a lie unto yourself?

It is when you do relinquish all memories, dreams, and expectations that you will be in a position to say: "I AM" There is no other purpose than "I AM", except that of divine playfullness. It is from the central "I AM" that uniqueness can come as a result of such playfullness, but it is the "I AM" that is real; the uniqueness merely a divine fantasy that comes and goes, like so much froth on the surface of the sea.

"Before Enlightenment, it is Something Special;
After Enlightenment, it is Nothing Special"

 

[Thief]

Your descriptions are all conjecture based on... what? Think about what your concepts of a so-called 'next life' are based upon, and why you have a need to maintain such ideas.

The point of living is here, now, not in some imaginary future. THIS right in front of you is what is real. Live it, fully and completely, so that you are fulfilled NOW. Then you will be ready to experience the next moment as it unfurls, without any concept of what it will be, without any expectation of reward, which only spoils the experience. As long as you continue to nurture fantasies, you will never awaken to the rich life you have already been given to live now. It is already complete, so there is nothing to 'get'; no 'heaven' as reward for 'good moral behavior' or hell for 'evil moral behavior'. Those are merely imaginary concepts we like to stoke the fires of to serve our egos. When the ego dissolves, there is no more self to gain or lose anything. There is only this complete eternal Present Moment, as it has always been, forever and forever, and it is quite sufficient. Anything else pales in comparison.

Only when you completely empty yourself of all of your beliefs, concepts, and opinions about what reality is, can you be fulfilled, and fulfillment can only occur in this present moment. It is nothing that you can imagine, no matter what you may think.

You are already a unique person, but underneath, that uniqueness, you are the same as everyone and everything else; Nothing Special. Just become who you already are and that will be purpose enough. What more do you want? You can't even handle the present moment, let alone any 'next life'.

If you think you are only a unique creation, without any shared common substance, then yes, you are a complete fraud.

You are a lie unto yourself if when you look into the mirror and see something you only imagine to be who you are. When you at last see that you have been an actor who has taken the role he has been playing much too seriously, you might enjoy a good laugh at your own expense, and then proceed to wake up from your sleep to discover who you really are. It is then that the real excitement begins.

The fact of the matter is that you know nothing about any 'next life'. All you know for sure is that you are here, now. So if that is the case, then you should proceed to actually be here, now. Anything else is delusion. The past is dead; the future non-existent. All you have...and I mean ALL you really have...is what is right in front of you now. It can be gone in the next moment. Live it before it is gone forever. So what do you propose to do?

Think of it this way: that the Divine Essence is playing all the infinitely diverse parts of the universe all at once, and those parts include you and I. It is playing each one as a unique manifestation of itself, but beneath all the masks, it is the One Divine Essence playing the exciting cosmic game of Hide and Seek with itself. What could be more compelling than that. Just get with the program, but never forget who you are underneath the mask, not even for one moment.

Sounds like a salvation rant that does not save.

So...nothing but dust after your last breath?

 

[godnotgod]

Sounds like a salvation rant that does not save.

Salvation? Who said anything about salvation? There must exist a self in order for it to be saved. Where is this 'self'?

So...nothing but dust after your last breath?

Who is it that takes a 'last breath" Who is it that lives? Who is it that dies? Is there a breather of a last breath, or is there simply the breathing of a last breath, without a 'breather'?

My point is that, since no one knows about any 'next life', but we DO know we are here, now, it only seems logical to live THIS moment fully and completely, without concern for the next. Then, when you live this moment fully, you are ready for the next without carrying forth any residue from the past into the present to contaminate it. This philosophy is contained in the parable of the Lilies of the Field, otherwise known as the Wisdom of Insecurity, where Yeshu instructed his audience not to worry about the morrow; to pay attention to what is:

"Therefore do not worry for tomorrow; for tomorrow will look after its own. Sufficient for each day, is its own trouble."
Pe****ta, Matt 6:34

 

[Thief]

Salvation? Who said anything about salvation? There must exist a self in order for it to be saved. Where is this 'self'?



Who is it that takes a 'last breath" Who is it that lives? Who is it that dies? Is there a breather of a last breath, or is there simply the breathing of a last breath, without a 'breather'?

Are we digressing to word games or taking a stance?

We die?...of course.
Is it final?.....nay.

 

[godnotgod]

Are we digressing to word games or taking a stance?

We die?...of course.
Is it final?.....nay.

Taking a stance does not make something real. You keep talking about a 'next life', and I keep asking you to show me why you make that claim, but you never answer the question, except to say that it is a reality. You base such an assertion on the premise that there exists a self that goes on after death. All I am asking you is to show me where this 'self' is located. If there is no such self, then the question is not whether it goes on after death, but whether death is real or an illusion. I can demonstrate that it is an illusion.

 

[cottage]

Just focusing on the ordinary sleep/dream state, that is to say, when you physically go to bed at night and dream, and then physically awaken to your day's activities, the question is: do you discern a difference between these two states of awareness, and how do you account for that difference?

Your own words indicate a 'dreamt or waking state', so you obviously acknowledge the presence of these two states, and therefore, the difference between the two.

I don’t merely acknowledge the two states but believe that there are two such states, in the same way that you do. But the point is that, notwithstanding our belief, it cannot be established beyond doubt that the “ordinary dream state”, when you or I “physically go to bed at night and dream, and physically awaken to our next day’s activities”, is not itself just a dream.

 

[cottage]

Is it? When dreaming, you do not KNOW you are dreaming, but when you awaken, you can reflect on the fact that you had, in fact, been dreaming. How is it that you know this difference?

If we divide that second sentence into its component parts we have:
1. When dreaming, you do not KNOW you are dreaming

2. but when you awaken

3. you can reflect on the fact that you had, in fact, been dreaming

If 1 is true then 2 is an unqualified assumption, since we might be dreaming we’re awake, and therefore 3 doesn’t follow as a conclusion.

 

[cottage]

Taking a stance does not make something real. You keep talking about a 'next life', and I keep asking you to show me why you make that claim, but you never answer the question, except to say that it is a reality. You base such an assertion on the premise that there exists a self that goes on after death. All I am asking you is to show me where this 'self' is located.

Taking a stance does not make something real. You keep talking about the “Absolute”, and I keep asking you to show me why you make that claim, but you never answer the question, except to say that it is a reality. You base such an assertion on the premise that there exists a “True reality” in which there is no death. All I am asking you is to show me where this “Self” is located.

If there is no such self, then the question is not whether it goes on after death, but whether death is real or an illusion. I can demonstrate that it is an illusion.

Then please may we have the demonstration?

 

[godnotgod]

I don’t merely acknowledge the two states but believe that there are two such states, in the same way that you do. But the point is that, notwithstanding our belief, it cannot be established beyond doubt that the “ordinary dream state”, when you or I “physically go to bed at night and dream, and physically awaken to our next day’s activities”, is not itself just a dream.

Whether you believe there are two states or not is not the issue. The issue is that there is something that is different between the two states. What is that something? The moment you call one a 'dream state', you automatically imply an 'awakened state'. What I am saying is that awakening is a matter of degree, so even though you awaken from the Second Level of Consciousness, that of Sleep with Dreams, into the Third Level, that of Waking Sleep, you are still dreaming, but the dream is of a different kind, and you are somewhat more awake than when on the Second Level. Having said that, the awakening that occurs from the Third to the Fourth Level is of a different character altogether, as I have previously described many times.

So never mind that awakening from sleep may also be a dream. I just want to know what the difference between the two states is, and how you are able to detect it.

 

[godnotgod]

Taking a stance does not make something real. You keep talking about the “Absolute”, and I keep asking you to show me why you make that claim, but you never answer the question, except to say that it is a reality. You base such an assertion on the premise that there exists a “True reality” in which there is no death. All I am asking you is to show me where this “Self” is located.

I see you are trying to be clever, but it fails, since the analogy of 'next life' and 'Absolute' is illogical, as 'next life' is after death, whereas 'Absolute' is immediately present and accessible now. So while no one can verify in any way a 'next life', the Absolute can indeed be verified by going to see for yourself.

In addition, your other analogy of the 'self' to the 'Self' is also illogical, since the former is merely a concept that is seen as an encapsulated entity, while the latter is non-local and limitless, and so cannot be so encapsulated by the conceptual mind as you would like it to fit your nice, neat little formula of Logic and Reason.

Then please may we have the demonstration?

I will need for you to first tell me what death is.

 

[godnotgod]

If we divide that second sentence into its component parts we have:
1. When dreaming, you do not KNOW you are dreaming

2. but when you awaken

3. you can reflect on the fact that you had, in fact, been dreaming

If 1 is true then 2 is an unqualified assumption, since we might be dreaming we’re awake, and therefore 3 doesn’t follow as a conclusion.

In effect, we are dreaming we're awake, but there is still a difference in the nature of the dream when asleep compared to the nature of the dream when awake. What is the nature of that difference?