The Debate of God.

[waitasec]

SORRY............! :sad:

I don't know how I did that but it hurts my eays as well. I'll just have to stop playing around with the thing while posting.

BLESSINGS AND KIND REGARDS FROM:
THE CUP :faint: :thud:

erase [color=] and [/color]
that should do the trick.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

ANSWER:
Actually, the question cocerning your soul has already been determined by you,.. and say-so over their own personal soul(s)...?

This entire section is irrelevant

In fact, can you logically explain to me or tell me why you have chosen to sort-of pointing some kind of guilty finger mu way, is it simply because you believe I could or should have some greater part of compassion towards or over the "eternally tortured" path people themselves have willfully chosen to travel...?

Yes, that is the reason.

Of course I can logically explain it. Let us examine your reaction, may we?

You are aware that a large number of persons, most likely many you actually know right now in your own life, aside thousands upon countless thousands you encounter every day, including children, the infirm... a large number of them will burn, for an eternity. No surcease, no relief, nothing really learned, just an endless excruciating, unbearable burning, all over, from which they do not even have the option of dieing to spare them.

And your reaction is: "Oh, well. It won't be me.'

If a Tibetan monk sat himself down in the road near you, and doused himself with gas to set himself on fire... would you merely shrug, and watch, or walk away? Or would you attempt to do something; if he succeeded, would you be filled with horror and sympathy as he screamed?

Or would you simply say 'Oh well, his choice.'?

The interesting point is that in my analogy it literally IS his choice, whereas people sent to Hell BY GOD have no choice whatsoever. And as I said, at least the monk can look forward, for want of a better phrase, of the fact that he probably won't actually live that long to feel the burning; he'll likely pass out and die rather quickly. Not so for anyone ever sent to Hell.

ANSWER:
OK...I willfully choose to not go the way of "eternal torments;" frankly, that's all my personal choice, it's not your or anyone else’s to choose...!

No, that's not the point of the statement. The point of the statement is that your choice to not care for the torture of others, shows your piety is merely an excuse for dehumanization. Your choice to be that way influenecs the attitude of otehrs here on Earth who see it. Nothing to do with your vaunted eternal rest.

ANSWER:
You and also all others as yourself have been clearly told for two thousand years of the end results of rejecting the Godly creator of all existing life,

And seen the results of those who follow such evil ways.. the crusades, the Inquisition, witch burnings,civil rights violations, etc etc

but mankind is primary the creator of any and all earthly type gods or many different god(s), whatever the case may or may not be here or there...?

Including yours then

I feel the general public has sense enough to see what is being presented before them, even at this very moment. SO why do I have to be concerned over anyone's personal assumptions concerning how I feel about the lost...?

If you choose to demonstrate it in public, there will be reactions. You volunteer it in public; I merely react.

ANSWER:
Actually you are the only one here (so far) who has defined any of Gods' act to be so-called "HEINOUS," while also referring to these acts as acts of "slaughtering people and animals by the millions;" so to speak, has that kind of act actually happened as of yet today i mean......yet...?

Did you fail to read the part of the bible about the flood? That's when it already happened, and if Revelation is to be believed [personally I think not], then he intends to do it again.

Yes, it's quite obviously heinous.

And can you indisputably prove it is God who does such acts as you are talking about...?

Yes. He brags about creating the Flood in his own book; what more do I need, seriously?

Or, is it an act that has been long predicted to come from ancient days gone by, and if so who will take heed and be safe from those so-called “HEINOUS” acts you are oddly referring to here...?

^^As we see, only those who think themselves immune for such mass murder and eternal torture, ever actively promote such a system.


Wise men do not worship that which seeks to destroy them.

PS - there's no need to sign your posts.

 

[cottage]

How is it that a rope is seen as a snake? How is it that mind is seen as real?

Because mind, ie thought, exists, since ‘there are no thoughts’ is contradictory, whereas neither the rope nor or snake are entities with demonstrable existence.

It does'nt. "....another kind of consciousness is awakened, which IS real, whereupon the illusory self is seen for what it is [by that other consciousness]."

You are saying this self, an illusion, that isn’t real, is nevertheless able to see its illusory-self for what it is, ie an illusion! And then you are saying this is enabled by ‘another consciousness’ that is awakened by an illusory-self that is practicing meditation! This is nonsense on stilts, and a classic example of how the inconvenient realities of the experiential world are necessary to the metaphysical theory or mystical doctrine, and how such a necessary accommodation always leads to a contradiction.

 

[Thief]

This entire section is irrelevant

Yes, that is the reason.

Of course I can logically explain it. Let us examine your reaction, may we?

You are aware that a large number of persons, most likely many you actually know right now in your own life, aside thousands upon countless thousands you encounter every day, including children, the infirm... a large number of them will burn, for an eternity. No surcease, no relief, nothing really learned, just an endless excruciating, unbearable burning, all over, from which they do not even have the option of dieing to spare them.

And your reaction is: "Oh, well. It won't be me.'

If a Tibetan monk sat himself down in the road near you, and doused himself with gas to set himself on fire... would you merely shrug, and watch, or walk away? Or would you attempt to do something; if he succeeded, would you be filled with horror and sympathy as he screamed?

Or would you simply say 'Oh well, his choice.'?

The interesting point is that in my analogy it literally IS his choice, whereas people sent to Hell BY GOD have no choice whatsoever. And as I said, at least the monk can look forward, for want of a better phrase, of the fact that he probably won't actually live that long to feel the burning; he'll likely pass out and die rather quickly. Not so for anyone ever sent to Hell.

No, that's not the point of the statement. The point of the statement is that your choice to not care for the torture of others, shows your piety is merely an excuse for dehumanization. Your choice to be that way influenecs the attitude of otehrs here on Earth who see it. Nothing to do with your vaunted eternal rest.

And seen the results of those who follow such evil ways.. the crusades, the Inquisition, witch burnings,civil rights violations, etc etc

Including yours then

If you choose to demonstrate it in public, there will be reactions. You volunteer it in public; I merely react.

Did you fail to read the part of the bible about the flood? That's when it already happened, and if Revelation is to be believed [personally I think not], then he intends to do it again.

Yes, it's quite obviously heinous.

Yes. He brags about creating the Flood in his own book; what more do I need, seriously?

^^As we see, only those who think themselves immune for such mass murder and eternal torture, ever actively promote such a system.


Wise men do not worship that which seeks to destroy them.

PS - there's no need to sign your posts.

A lengthy retort.

But then wise men do not worship what seeks to destroy them.

But then again, wise men do not resist what CAN destroy them.

You mentioned choices but say so as if your choice is the only one that matters.

Nothing greater than you?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

A lengthy retort.

But then wise men do not worship what seeks to destroy them.

But then again, wise men do not resist what CAN destroy them.

You mentioned choices but say so as if your choice is the only one that matters.

Nothing greater than you?

Wise men don't resist?
Wise men fight injustice all the time, and often the sources of tyranny can destroy them. Dieing that way is worthy.
Not the same thing. In fact, isn't it interesting? Wise men rise and fight, while the snivelers sit idly by watching, complicit with tyrants. Nobody ever remembers the snivelers. They never got anything done; too busy saving their own hides.

My choice is what matters to me.*
When God agrees, then he'll matter. As long as what I care for doesn't matter to him, the feeling is mutual.

Your God of fear does not deserve my attention. There are better Gods interested in me. I don't agree that fear and threats = love, or family. If you do, have fun with it. On your knees.

I follow the Gods to whom I am related by blood. They are Greater, with the capital 'G'.


*[edit] However, in the context of the statements, my choice is not the one that matters; it's not about mattering or not, it's about morally correct [me] vs not morally correct [him, and you]

 

[godnotgod]

You started with a misconception and just kept going.
You are simply using terms and nouns at will.

Excuse me, but you can be conscious without thinking; and you can be conscious but still unawakened spiritually. Most of mankind is in this state. It is called Identification.

You are local. Humans cannot be in two places at once.
You are in your body, and will be until you die.

Your body cannot be in two places at once, but consciousness is not limited to your body, except insofar as you falsely think there is an entity called "I" that can contain it. Show me how consciousness can be contained when it is not a thing.

Who is it that lives? Who is it that dies?

That I can deal with this, doesn't mean I'm wrong.
The greater level of awareness comes immediately at the hour of dying.
But the choice of continuance belongs to heaven.
If you have what it takes you can follow...but it's Their choice.

Who is 'they'? Perhaps, unbeknownst to you, 'they' are none other than the many faces of 'you'.*

Thoughts are indeed who we are.
It is the manner by which you think and feel, that comes to light...
when we stand up from the dust.

Can you show me this "I", this 'self' that thinks; that feels, that stands up from the dust? Perhaps it is nothing more than a hallucination.

The ego does everything it can to 'exist'; to come into being; to 'become'; to 'stand up from the dust'. But all that arises must subside. All that is born must die. Better to remain in The Unborn. Being Unborn, you cannot die. Then you are deathless; then you are at one with the Infinite. In fact, you were never separated from it in the first place.
*****

*A man dies and goes to Heaven. Approaching the Pearly Gates, he knocks.
"Who knocks?" a voice from within asks.
"Me, Lord. It is me"
"Sorry, there are no 'me's' on the list. Begone!"
Perplexed, the man retreats, and after much thought, returns after a week, again knocking on the Pearly Gates.
"Yes? Who goes there" a voice queries from within.
"Yes, it is ME, Lord..you know...ME!...ME!....ME!"
"Nope! No ME's here. Go away!" the voice replies.
This time, the man retreats for an entire year. Finally, he returns, and again knocks loudly at the Gates.
"Yes?" asks the inner voice, "Who is it this time?"
"Why, it is none other than YOU, oh Lord!", at which the Gates swing wide open.

 

[waitasec]

A lengthy retort.

But then wise men do not worship what seeks to destroy them.

But then again, wise men do not resist what CAN destroy them.

You mentioned choices but say so as if your choice is the only one that matters.

Nothing greater than you?

correction: cowardly men don't resist...

 

[PolyHedral]

Excuse me, but you can be conscious without thinking;

How?
:areyoucra

 

[TheCup]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCup

reply to: "HEATHEN NAMMER"

ANSWERED BY THE CUP
Actually, the question cocerning your soul has already been determined by you,.. say-so over their own personal soul(s)...?

LOOK AT THE ABOVE SENTENCE:
COULD YOU HAVE LEFT OUT THE PART WHERE IT SAYS “IT’S BEEN DETERMIMNED, BY YOU”…? WHICH MEANS: YOU HAVE THE SAY-SO OVER YOUR OWN PERSONAL SOUL” ?




REPLY--(Heathen Hammer): “This entire section is irrelevant.”

ANSWER--(THE CUP): So, actually what’s your primary point of resolving the mystery before you, in this post, at this time…? It’s your call; you are actually the one here who brought up this slight personal momentary distraction on the post, which also implies itself to be more directly associated with a superfluous controversial concept, all based upon your very own beliefs and it is clear this whole posting idea here is also strongly conflicting against your preconceived understandings of Godly created torments and Godly created burnings of innocent victims in a hellish state of eternal existence.

Absolutely none of what you are implying or saying here was my calling, it was yours; yet, look at what you are doing here; you are absolutely directly challenging me personally, at that, and hoping to show others what you believe in is the truth; in fact you are doing all of this because of your own extreme confusions over the entire concept of “hell fire;” and you assume to believe I’m just a convenient way to vent all of your deep fears of hell; now you’re actually saying my replies to the above are, “irrelevant…?

I really don’t believe you’re on the same kind of page as the thread’s theme purposed, at the start …none of what you are saying and implying here is about the theme of the thread it turned inward and is now all about me (personally). None of your postings tend to make any sound common sense…!

In fact, according to all I can see from your replies here, mostly all coming from your replies that is, actually tells me one very important thing about your purpose for replying here, and that is…by closely reading through all of your condescending wordings, you (yourself) appear to be absolutely and totally terrified of thinking about any possibility that you may wakening one day, perhaps real soon and find yourself burning in the same eternal torments of hell you are pointing out here in these postings.

You may not think so, but I really can actually see the ever growing fear within your own words, and I see the frightened personality within woven within and throughout all of the words of your postings against what I’ve posted here. Why else would you choose to challenge me, personally, if I were wrong about this…?

But, please let me assure you, it really does not have to be that way, for you…! The feelings of fear over burning in some eternal hellish state of existence can quickly go away and change fast, even much quicker that you may think; but, change is up to you; you alone can make that change, within you own self. I really hope you take this advice and soon better your feelings over this whole fear you have concerning hell, God does not hate you at all, and God does not want to see you burn in hell at all, as a matter of fact, I don’t either…!

I am a published author of Biblical and spiritualistic themes as well as matters involving the soul of the lost; my writings go out around today’s lost and saved world. Yes, I do actually care, but the question here is, do you care about your own eternal soul as much as others do…?

Regards From:
The Cup


"A TRUE WISE MAN NEVER MISTAKENS KINDNESS AS A WEAKNESS...!"

 

[confused453]

If there's such thing as multiverse. Would there be one god per universe? Or would it be a single God to rule them all?
btw, you may want to click on the word multiverse...

 

[TheCup]

If there's such thing as multiverse. Would there be one god per universe? Or would it be a single God to rule them all?
btw, you may want to click on the word multiverse...

If one were to rely upon the words of the Bible there would be one Godly creator for all existing things:

JOHN 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

That is the best I can do, hope this helps...?

KIND REGARDS FROM:

THE CUP

 

[godnotgod]

How?
:areyoucra

Thoughts are recognized as such because you see them against some field, or background. What is the background against which you identify a thought as such?

 

[Thief]

correction: cowardly men don't resist...

You and the other guy both....

A brave man will do what he knows he is able.
A fool makes resistance against what he cannot defeat.

My God is not a God of fear or threat.
But if you want to walk in heaven, you gotta step up.
You start by standing up when your body fails.

The urge to do so will be there.....go with it.

 

[PolyHedral]

Thoughts are recognized as such because you see them against some field, or background. What is the background against which you identify a thought as such?

Thought. The recognition of anything, including thinking itself, is a thought.

Yes, there is a self reference here. What of it?

 

[godnotgod]

Thought. The recognition of anything, including thinking itself, is a thought.

Yes, there is a self reference here. What of it?

But that recognition also occurs against something that is already in place. Otherwise we are getting into the area of infinite regression. What is that something that is already there against which all thought occurs?

Sounds like you are saying that SEEING something, and THINKING about it are the same thing. If that is so, then lasers 'think', since they recognize data. One might say that a mirror 'recognizes' the original, and so 'thinks', according to your definitinon, but is that really so? Reflection and thought. Are they the same?

 

[godnotgod]

Because mind, ie thought, exists, since ‘there are no thoughts’ is contradictory, whereas neither the rope nor or snake are entities with demonstrable existence.

...and the 'mind' is such an entity? How so?

You are saying this self, an illusion, that isn’t real, is nevertheless able to see its illusory-self for what it is, ie an illusion! And then you are saying this is enabled by ‘another consciousness’ that is awakened by an illusory-self that is practicing meditation! This is nonsense on stilts, and a classic example of how the inconvenient realities of the experiential world are necessary to the metaphysical theory or mystical doctrine, and how such a necessary accommodation always leads to a contradiction.

Either you are quite confused, or are twisting everything I say, or both. This is what happens when you try to apply Reason and Logic to a higher state of affairs.

None of the above is what I said. You are creating a fabrication out of what I did say. Try looking at it in terms of the rope/snake metaphor. The ordinary everyday conditioned mind that we all think of as real, is actually the rope, but we do not recognize it as such. Instead, we see it as the 'snake'. The 'snake' is, in reality, the rope, but the rope is not manifested. During meditation, where vision correction occurs, the 'snake' [ie; 'mind', dissolves away and the rope, [ie; Universal Consciousness; Absolute; Big Mind, etc.] which is true reality, is then manifested. IT is what sees the illusory nature of the self-created entity that is called 'mind', so there is no duality here, as the 'mind' is an illusion. But the 'rope', or Universal Consciousness, is not a definable entity. It is undifferentiated consciousness that just sees, unlike the self-created mind, which is imagined as a finite, definable, differentiated entity that 'thinks'. So no, it is not the illusory self that sees; it is the Absolute that does, and it is the Absolute that is always present, even when the illusory self is being manifested.
*****

"Like two golden birds perched on the selfsame tree
Intimate friends, the ego and the Self*
Dwell in the same body.
The former eats the sweet and sour fruits of the tree of life
While the latter looks on in detachment.

As long as we think we are the ego,
We feel attached and fall into sorrow.
But realize that you the Self, the Lord
Of life, and you will be freed from sorrow.
When you realize that you are the Self,
Supreme source of light, supreme source of love,
You transcend the duality of life and enter into the unitized state."

excerpt, Mundaka Upanishad

*'Self' here pertaining to Universal Consciousness; not the egoic self.

 

[godnotgod]

If there's such thing as multiverse. Would there be one god per universe? Or would it be a single God to rule them all?
btw, you may want to click on the word multiverse...

Definitely there would have to be just One Ruling God, because a multitude of them would only result in silly, unresolvable border disputes, wars, race hatreds, general divisiveness, and ultimately, mass annihilation.

"Now, boys, let's stop this silly horsing around, shall we? I'd like to have a little talk with you, heh, heh, heh...uh...ever hear of a COVENANT?, LOL
Now seriously, that piece of that particular multiverse in Galaxy R45-T98 belongs to ME, you hear? And if you don't agree, I'm afraid there's going be a bit of fur that's about to fly. I mean, you all KNOW I have a tendency toward extreme ANGER and JEALOUSY over trifles, over which I have been known to send scourges, floods, mass epidemics and the like, like that time my creatures did exactly what I commanded them NOT to do, knowing full well, of course, that they would, LOL...Oh, silly me, requiring me to incarnate and suffer such iniquities and humiliations the likes of which....oh, never mind!"

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCup

reply to: "HEATHEN HAMMER"

ANSWERED BY THE CUP
Actually, the question cocerning your soul has already been determined by you,.. say-so over their own personal soul(s)...?

LOOK AT THE ABOVE SENTENCE:
COULD YOU HAVE LEFT OUT THE PART WHERE IT SAYS “IT’S BEEN DETERMIMNED, BY YOU”…? WHICH MEANS: YOU HAVE THE SAY-SO OVER YOUR OWN PERSONAL SOUL” ?

But your statement isn't accurate in the context of the discussion. this is merely another throwback to the Christian 'choice' assertion. Whatever one's personal actions are, nevertheless the ONLY thing which actually directs a soul toward some destination is God's power; we do not have the ability to will ourselves to any desired location. As I pointed out before, if we did, Hell would be empty.

REPLY--(Heathen Hammer): “This entire section is irrelevant.”

ANSWER--(THE CUP): So, actually what’s your primary point of resolving the mystery before you, in this post, at this time…? It’s your call; you are actually the one here who brought up this slight personal momentary distraction on the post, which also implies itself to be more directly associated with a superfluous controversial concept,

It's not superfluous, it is a direct challenge to your own perceived piousness concerning yourself, and my clarifying that you use your piety to dehumanize others who are destined for your God's eternal furnace.

all based upon your very own beliefs

Which are condensed from reading the Bible about the subject and listening to Christians

and it is clear this whole posting idea here is also strongly conflicting against your preconceived understandings of Godly created torments and Godly created burnings of innocent victims in a hellish state of eternal existence.

And... in what way does this not occur? Wouyld you care to explain teh difference in what the Bible is said to say and what you think the situation actually is?

Absolutely none of what you are implying or saying here was my calling, it was yours; yet, look at what you are doing here; you are absolutely directly challenging me personally, at that, and hoping to show others what you believe in is the truth; in fact you are doing all of this because of your own extreme confusions over the entire concept of “hell fire;” and you assume to believe I’m just a convenient way to vent all of your deep fears of hell;

First, you yourself follow this idea. You can clarify what exactly you think Hell is if you like, if it differs from an eternal suffering.

But in terms of this being a personal challenge, why of course it is; if your take on Hellfire is somehow different than Christian mainstream then it only goes to prove that attempting to challenge a book whose own adherents don't even agree on tits contents is rather fruitless; and, the Bible won't be posting here itself. You're the only solution.
Are you not here, to join the Circle of Philosophers? Is that not your purpose? That is the function of a forum, after all, even back to the Romans who created the word. Our holy writings will not meet; neither will the Gods appear to hash these things out. that leaves only us.

now you’re actually saying my replies to the above are, “irrelevant…?

What you posted at that particular point was irrelevant to the quoted conversation, yes.

I really don’t believe you’re on the same kind of page as the thread’s theme purposed, at the start …none of what you are saying and implying here is about the theme of the thread it turned inward and is now all about me (personally). None of your postings tend to make any sound common sense…!

Sure they do

In fact, according to all I can see from your replies here, mostly all coming from your replies that is, actually tells me one very important thing about your purpose for replying here, and that is…by closely reading through all of your condescending wordings, you (yourself) appear to be absolutely and totally terrified of thinking about any possibility that you may wakening one day, perhaps real soon and find yourself burning in the same eternal torments of hell you are pointing out here in these postings.

That is utter nonsense. I do not fear Hell at all, as I am an Odinsman; we don't belong to your system and your God and his fiery torments have no hold or threat over me in any way. I know your reaction here is to reduce me to some fearful person in your own view so that my true words don't sting you as much, but that isn't the case. I don't fear you, I don't fear your weak God, and i don't fear Hell, in any way.

You may not think so, but I really can actually see the ever growing fear within your own words, and I see the frightened personality within woven within and throughout all of the words of your postings against what I’ve posted here.

Keep telling yourself that

Why else would you choose to challenge me, personally, if I were wrong about this…?

Because your moral take on it is terrible, and I am airing it out for all to see.

But, please let me assure you,

I deleted your proselytizing, if you don't mind, as it's against forum rules, and rather droll besides.
I do not take the assurances of morally questionable faiths, just fyi.

I am a published author of Biblical and spiritualistic themes as well as matters involving the soul of the lost; my writings go out around today’s lost and saved world. Yes, I do actually care, but the question here is, do you care about your own eternal soul as much as others do…?

My eternal soul is well cared for elsewhere. Your God will never lay mitts on it.
But, we aren't going to lay our bona fides out, are we? From experience here even if mine are superior this will suddenly not matter.
Mine are extensive.

Finally I would point out you attempted to avoid actually addressing my points concerning your casual complicity in teh burning of others. Your ministry efforts are a treatment of the symptom but nothing to touch the cause; you tell people how to avoid the torture chamber, but you are silent about the continued efforts of the torturer himself.

I am here to rail against the torturer himself, and those who are complicit; your failure to do speak against him is a demonstration of your fear.

 

[Thief]

Thought. The recognition of anything, including thinking itself, is a thought.

Yes, there is a self reference here. What of it?

How about the popular quote...."I think, therefore I am"....?

And would you allow as much for God?

I read somewhere....
"Tell the people..."I AM"....and the ones that understand will know whose law this is."

 

[godnotgod]

How about the popular quote...."I think, therefore I am"....?

Heh...heh...heh...and of course, when "I not-think, I not-am, right?"...more proof, ladies and gentlemen, that the mind is a self-created hallucination of itself, you know...like the reverberating audio feedback through a microphone. It also shows that Descartes was an idiot.

Western philosophy hangs a lot on the idea, "I think, therefore I am".
Zen however says: "I think I am, therefore I become."