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The decline of traditional religion in the West

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
FFIW I see Hinduism as a religion with Divine origins. Hinduism and Buddhism both emerged quite separate and independent of Christianity and Islam. When these religions came together it was through colonization in India with some very negative experiences for Hindus.

True. There is a lot of baggage concerning the “colonial hangover” and it’s affects on Hinduism, Buddhism and indeed Indian culture as a whole. Indeed it even casts a shadow over Fijian Indian culture as well.

I have spent several months in Labasa, Fiji with a predominantly Indian population. Many of the residents were hospitable. In Indian culture, hospitality was considered next to Godliness.
Oh mate, my mum is originally from Ba!!
Just down the road really :D;)
Itching to go back to Fiji as well. Miss the fam!
Yes. Hospitality is a very big thing in Indian culture. We often joke that Indian mums have a glass of juice always at the ready to give to anyone who so much as knocks on the door lol
When I was a kid there used to be these two little old lady Jehovahs Witnesses that used to constantly preach to my mother.
I remember, once she had learnt their routine, she would have snacks and drinks all prepared for them for each of their visits lol
The thinking that one religion is somehow superior to the other, probably contributes to the decline of religion. These days we expect peoples of all faiths and ideologies cooperating and working together without one group undermining the other.
Yes. (Some) Hindus often call such attitudes “ego.”
And it can cause a lot of friction indeed.
Even my universalist laid back mum was often appalled at the aforementioned JWs. Not because of their religious beliefs but because they often talked down to her and would (perhaps unintentionally) insult our own religious beliefs. Even as we did everything we could to make them welcome at our home.
It is quite the spit in the face, truth be told.
But my mother often “turned the other cheek” so to speak ;):)
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Some countries in the West including New Zealand where I live and the USA where many people on this forum live, are witnessing an unprecedented decline in religion. The process of declining numbers are more pronounced in New Zealand. Only a third of our population identify as Christian whereas over 100 years ago it was more than 90 percent. The decline is accelerating here, not slowing down. Our most recent census in 2018 recorded 37% Christian whereas only 5 years previously it was 48%.

Religion in New Zealand - Wikipedia

On the other hand the numbers of those who identified as having no religion have risen dramatically. 49% identify as having no religion in 2018 compared to 42% in 2013.

What are the forces at play for such a seismic shift? Is it because religion has fallen into disrepute? Will the USA follow other Western countries like New Zealand with an unprecedented exodus from religion?

True. But also you should note, atheism as a whole has been seeing a decline. In the early 20th century atheism grew exponentially. Just swept across. But since the 70's it has slowed down like a cart on a hill. PEW predicts Atheism will keep declining for a long time.

Nevertheless, do you have a theory why?
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
True. But also you should note, atheism as a whole has been seeing a decline. In the early 20th century atheism grew exponentially. Just swept across. But since the 70's it has slowed down like a cart on a hill. PEW predicts Atheism will keep declining for a long time.
Could you link that PEW study?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Some countries in the West including New Zealand where I live and the USA where many people on this forum live, are witnessing an unprecedented decline in religion. The process of declining numbers are more pronounced in New Zealand. Only a third of our population identify as Christian whereas over 100 years ago it was more than 90 percent. The decline is accelerating here, not slowing down. Our most recent census in 2018 recorded 37% Christian whereas only 5 years previously it was 48%.

Religion in New Zealand - Wikipedia

On the other hand the numbers of those who identified as having no religion have risen dramatically. 49% identify as having no religion in 2018 compared to 42% in 2013.

What are the forces at play for such a seismic shift? Is it because religion has fallen into disrepute? Will the USA follow other Western countries like New Zealand with an unprecedented exodus from religion?
How could it not fall into the disrepute it so
thoroughly brought on itself?
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
I think how religions have comported themselves and have resisted change doesn't help. I think also any religion that places emphasis on the necessity of believing in a historical reality of their spiritual beliefs places that belief in a minefield it cannot forever withstand.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
I believe the decline in the US has a lot to do with the right wing politics that are being preached from many pulpits.
Look at the effect on some of the latest elections in the States of the revoking of Roe v Wade.
Add in the internet "Where religions come to die" and it is not surprising that a decline is happening.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I agree that truth matters, but I believe religion has a great deal of truth. For example Jesus was a real person who lived among men and through the example of his life and the power of his teaching, positively influenced the lives of countless people though many generations until this time. However I see religion in the USA at the fore of morally questionable and divisive political movements. Insistence on biblical literalism appears really harmful.
In what way is it true that those are Jesus' teachings?

The chance that, say, the sermon on the
mount- if there even was one- was then
transcribed, let one perfectly, is what?
How probable?

More to the point, what is ascribed to him
is basic folk wisdom, such as is found in
different cultural traditions around the world.

And sure, those values have positive influence,
and would be taught with or without Christianity.

The origin and monopoly that Christians
claim for the " teachings" is it not well received
elsewhere.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What are the forces at play for such a seismic shift? Is it because religion has fallen into disrepute? Will the USA follow other Western countries like New Zealand with an unprecedented exodus from religion?

The US is following that trend. Here are a couple of surveys documenting it. First, we see that self-identifying Christians fell between 1990 and 2008 from 86% to 76% while "none"s rose from 8% to 15%:

American Religious Identification Survey
from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/metro/documents/aris030609.pdf

Adult population, total
1990: 175,440,000
2008: 228,182,000

Total Christian
1990: 151,225,000 (86.2%)
2008: 173,402,000 (76.0%)

None/ No religion, total
1990: 14,331,000 (8.2%)
2008: 34,169,000 (15.0%)​

Also, from Pew: "One-in-Five Adults Have No Religious Affiliation" Oct 9, 2012: "In the last five years alone, the unaffiliated have increased from just over 15% to just under 20% of all U.S. adults. Their ranks now include more than 13 million self-described atheists and agnostics (nearly 6% of the U.S. public), as well as nearly 33 million people who say they have no particular religious affiliation (14%)." [Title] (pewresearch.org)

Also, from 2021: U.S. Church Membership Falls Below Majority for First Time (gallup.com)

Why is this happening? Several reasons:
  • The appearance of best sellers and the rise of the Internet have given humanists a platform (like RF) and made atheism much more respectable.
  • Scandal after scandal has flown by since the rise of the televangelists in the 70's continuing today, right up to the church pedophilia cover up and the failed Palin and Duggar examples of Christian family values. Jim Jones and David Koresh didn't help the church any.
  • The entertainment media mostly depict the church and clergy as hypocritical or ineffectual.
  • People are put off by Christian homophobia and hell theology.
  • People are put off the religious incursion into government and people's freedoms. The Handmaid's Tale look isn't a good one for the church.
  • Science and evolution have made atheism more tenable.
  • People find the church and religion increasingly less relevant in daily life. It doesn't meet their needs.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Some countries in the West including New Zealand where I live and the USA where many people on this forum live, are witnessing an unprecedented decline in religion. The process of declining numbers are more pronounced in New Zealand. Only a third of our population identify as Christian whereas over 100 years ago it was more than 90 percent. The decline is accelerating here, not slowing down. Our most recent census in 2018 recorded 37% Christian whereas only 5 years previously it was 48%.

Religion in New Zealand - Wikipedia

On the other hand the numbers of those who identified as having no religion have risen dramatically. 49% identify as having no religion in 2018 compared to 42% in 2013.

What are the forces at play for such a seismic shift? Is it because religion has fallen into disrepute? Will the USA follow other Western countries like New Zealand with an unprecedented exodus from religion?

Freely available information via the internet and education,the encouragement of critical thinking too,if one studied history you would be hard pushed to say the religion has been a glistening star of peace and love especially the abrahmics.

The decline in the UK is such that churches are being sold off,the downside of this is the same as Pubs closing which is loss of community but I think the decline was inevitable.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So what is true, and why does it matter?
I use the "correspondence" definition of truth ─ truth is a quality of statements, and a statement is true to the extent that it corresponds with / accurately reflects objective reality. The power of this definition is in providing an objective test for truth. Please note, though, that no statement taken as true is absolute. Truth changes with time because our understanding changes with time.

If god, or gods, or goddesses, or angel, or demons, or souls, or ghosts, or magicians, or sprites, or banshees, or werewolves were real ─ had objective existence ─ it would be possible to make true statements about them. It would be possible to determine what claims made about each of them were accurate, and what were false. But the only way these supernatural entities are known to exist is as concepts, or things imagined, in individual brains, which under my definition rules true statements out except negatory ones.

(It's often said that the results of formal systems like maths or symbolic logic are 'true'. In that case, though, they're only true in the sense that they're correct according to the rules of the system. What may be true is the statement that such results can produce useful results when applied to reality.)
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Some countries in the West including New Zealand where I live and the USA where many people on this forum live, are witnessing an unprecedented decline in religion. The process of declining numbers are more pronounced in New Zealand. Only a third of our population identify as Christian whereas over 100 years ago it was more than 90 percent. The decline is accelerating here, not slowing down. Our most recent census in 2018 recorded 37% Christian whereas only 5 years previously it was 48%.

Religion in New Zealand - Wikipedia

On the other hand the numbers of those who identified as having no religion have risen dramatically. 49% identify as having no religion in 2018 compared to 42% in 2013.

What are the forces at play for such a seismic shift? Is it because religion has fallen into disrepute? Will the USA follow other Western countries like New Zealand with an unprecedented exodus from religion?
The religious concepts and teachings has been based on a literal interpretation of the Holy Books. I guess, people's mind no longer can accept these literal miraculous stories that once was accepted by the majority of people.
On one hand this has to do with freedom of speech and expression rights, that did not exist before, so, no one could challenge the religious beliefs. In more recent centuries the freedom is part of the human rights in western countries and by the advent of the internet, more and more people challenged religious beliefs, which resulted in disbelieving in old beliefs.
 
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RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
I use the "correspondence" definition of truth ─ truth is a quality of statements, and a statement is true to the extent that it corresponds with / accurately reflects objective reality. The power of this definition is in providing an objective test for truth. Please note, though, that no statement taken as true is absolute. Truth changes with time because our understanding changes with time.

If god, or gods, or goddesses, or angel, or demons, or souls, or ghosts, or magicians, or sprites, or banshees, or werewolves were real ─ had objective existence ─ it would be possible to make true statements about them. It would be possible to determine what claims made about each of them were accurate, and what were false. But the only way these supernatural entities are known to exist is as concepts, or things imagined, in individual brains, which under my definition rules true statements out except negatory ones.

(It's often said that the results of formal systems like maths or symbolic logic are 'true'. In that case, though, they're only true in the sense that they're correct according to the rules of the system. What may be true is the statement that such results can produce useful results when applied to reality.)


So you are saying that there are no absolute truths, rather that all truth is relative and mutable? And that the test of the veracity of a statement or observation, is in the results it may predict? Have I understood that correctly?

As for objective reality, would you not agree that whatever that may be, we can only ever experience it subjectively? It's an ideal, in other words, albeit an ideal partially confirmed by observation. Still, objective reality is something we each perceive differently, each from our own unique perspective. If there is a consciousness capable of perceiving objective reality, a consciousness which knows the universe as it is, that consciousness must, by definition be universal, must it not?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Some countries in the West including New Zealand where I live and the USA where many people on this forum live, are witnessing an unprecedented decline in religion. The process of declining numbers are more pronounced in New Zealand. Only a third of our population identify as Christian whereas over 100 years ago it was more than 90 percent. The decline is accelerating here, not slowing down. Our most recent census in 2018 recorded 37% Christian whereas only 5 years previously it was 48%.

Religion in New Zealand - Wikipedia

On the other hand the numbers of those who identified as having no religion have risen dramatically. 49% identify as having no religion in 2018 compared to 42% in 2013.

What are the forces at play for such a seismic shift? Is it because religion has fallen into disrepute? Will the USA follow other Western countries like New Zealand with an unprecedented exodus from religion?

It could be that religion has just become more and more irrelevant in people's lives. It doesn't mean they're all becoming atheists, but I know plenty of people who believe in God or some sort of Higher Power, yet they don't see any need to go to church or belong to any religion where they subject themselves to a set of rules or interference in their private lives.

Considering what our governments in the West have done, what our corporations have done, and the large amount of sinning which goes on at the very top (and which trickles down to the bottom), can the people look to religion for any kind of inspirational, moral leadership? Much of the time, they can't even lead each other, even if they're all supposedly inspired by God and all believe in the same God. There's still plenty of internal squabbles and sectarian infighting where they all think they know "the truth" and all who disagree with them are heretics. And these are the people who would presume to tell the rest of us, the great unwashed, what's what and how to live decent and moral lives.
 

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Truth is what aligns to reality, and it matters because understanding reality is what allows us to progress.

You'll never learn to fly by believing angels will carry you but knowledge of aeronautics etc has carried humanity through the sky.

I can't give you all the answers, but I can speak in favour of science and reason which has given humans reliable answers where such answers are practically achievable.

In my opinion.
there are spiritual truths as well as scientific ones.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Could you link that PEW study?

Let me see.

Screenshot 2022-08-27 at 18.10.25.png
 

Sand Dancer

Currently catless
2) Religion is boring to some degree. TV, video games, the great outdoors, have all been less boring options.

There are probably many more factors. Personally, I don't see it as a good thing or a bad thing.

I read that if you give someone something fun to do on Sunday mornings, they will choose that over church.
 
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