The decline of traditional religion in the West

[CG Didymus]

@CG Didymus looks like this thread is open for Baha'is to teach Baha'i faith but not for anyone to respond/refute them.

One has to wonder why such a thread is in a debate forum.

In my opinion.

As you well know, I argue with Baha'is over everything. I think that if their prophet really is the return of every promised one from every major religion, it's well worth it to make sure and double check all their claims. This thread and some of the other threads started by Baha'is have made it clear that they believe that all the other religions are in decline. That they are in a state of decay. That they don't have the answers needed to solve the problems of the world. Okay, but then how do they unite all the other religions? Their own teachings say that if religion is the cause of division, then we are better off without it. Baha'is, if true, have to be the peacemakers. They have to find ways to unite all of humanity.

The way they present themselves is the opposite. All the other religions are hopelessly messed up, and they are the only ones that can fix things. Which maybe true. But what are they proposing? What is their plan to unite the religions? Or is their religion failing to deliver on their claims and promises also?

 

[Truth in love]

Some countries in the West including New Zealand where I live and the USA where many people on this forum live, are witnessing an unprecedented decline in religion. The process of declining numbers are more pronounced in New Zealand. Only a third of our population identify as Christian whereas over 100 years ago it was more than 90 percent. The decline is accelerating here, not slowing down. Our most recent census in 2018 recorded 37% Christian whereas only 5 years previously it was 48%.

Religion in New Zealand - Wikipedia

On the other hand the numbers of those who identified as having no religion have risen dramatically. 49% identify as having no religion in 2018 compared to 42% in 2013.

What are the forces at play for such a seismic shift? Is it because religion has fallen into disrepute? Will the USA follow other Western countries like New Zealand with an unprecedented exodus from religion?

I can’t speak for the changes in New Z, but in the US there was a major legal shift around the 60’s that bars open religious actions in many public places including schools.

There is also a culture shift what are we watching, reading, saying and doing. The more it’s non traditional the more people go elsewhere.

 

[sun rise]

It’s fascinating that just about every religious tradition describing the end days also speaks of an Avatar or some Saviour appearing to renew spirituality in the world.

The Symptoms of Kaliyuga - Ancient Hindu Predictions

Of course this is seen through the theological lens of the respective religions but to me it's highly meaningful.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Of course this is seen through the theological lens of the respective religions but to me it's highly meaningful.

To me it means there’s plenty of hope and that after the darkness, the sun will shine again and peace will come.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That's an absolutely unreliable source you are quoting. Effendi should have as I said studied the world a little, and engaged with scholarship.

If you google what you want to see, you will find it. But that's confirmation bias.



So what you are saying is since you don't know anything about your own belief, others have to do research correct?

I have done the research. I am asking you a few questions just to get your own source of knowledge.

But you have proven that you have none.

Do you know that the name Ariya Metteyya is not a legitimate name? It is not even a name mentioned in the canonical Pali scripture of the Buddhists. I know you have claimed in the past that you have "Studied" the Pali canon. But it's obvious you have not even read a single page of the relevant scripture.

If you want to read about Metteya in the Pali canon I will give you the exact reference. I know I have give you the same many times, given you screenshots, Pali text, the sources, and every possible help that could be done. But of course, you are not interested.

Again, it's the Chakkavatti Sutta, in Deega Nikaya, Sutta Pitaka, Tipitaka.

Cheers.

You free to have your point of view as I am too. I respect your views. But I believe I’ve made the case that in the writings, traditions and scriptures of all the major religions, a period of decline IS foretold. That is what I have attempted to explain. Buddhists, whether we can verify 2,500 year old scriptures or not, do expect a decline in their religion and do expect another Buddha to appear just like Christians await the Second Coming and so on.

That’s the crux of the matter and this thread, the decline of religion and that’s what I have attempted to explain using the traditions of the various religions.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It's surprising that the Quran which you claim is God's word does not have any of this in it.

That’s your opinion.

 

[loverofhumanity]

@loverofhumanity

You cut and paste things about Patipatti. I asked you what it is, and what it means. Honestly, why don't you say that you don't know? Is not that just humility?

Without any effort in knowing something, how could you pursue a legitimate path? I guess it's fine to have a particular faith based on faith alone, but what takes place is when you bring in other faiths and twist them to suit your own faith, they will question the legitimacy of what ever you or your piers quote about their religions. That's how it is.

It's because there is nothing authentic that you find in your websites you can't answer any of these questions. When you say "it's an Islamic source", or "this is Buddhism", it's so farfetched and unauthentic it's unbelievable. The sources you quote are cherry picked by your websites. Cherry picked verses from cherry picked sources. When you quote other peoples religions and completely twist them around with no legitimacy it will attract questions. You claim something is "Islam" but it's laughable because Muslims don't call that "Islam". Muslims world over don't keep these strange and weird sources on their heads and worship them. When I say strange and weird, these are real words Muslims use in their discourse. Mawdooa, Mathrook, Daeef, Munkar, Mursal, Thadhlees, are all considerations of Muslims. Strange, weird, weak, made up, nonsensical, bogus, are words Muslims use in scholarship. Just that when used in English they sound like people making some arbitrary and uneducated guesswork. Not at all. It's very harshly scrutinised and thought of. Honestly. Thadhlees means made up narrators. Lol. Just made up. Just as an example.

So why do you make such claims about other peoples religions? Think about it a little.

Do you know what Patipatti means in Buddhism? Take it from the Pali scripture. It means "Principles". You cut and paste things with that word, but you don't know the meaning of it. When asked, you don't reply but avoid it, 10 times or a 100 times you will do that. Is that practicing principles?

I quoted that just to show that according to traditions which Buddhists believe in, Buddhism will decline and a new Buddha will arise. That’s was all what I intended to show.

So I have no idea about all the pali terminologies because I’m talking only about the decline of religion.

 

[danieldemol]

So what you are saying is that Effendi repeated what Bayhaqi said, not what Muhammed said, or any kind of revelation?

Effendi repeated what was attributed to Muhammad by others who went before him. I don't know whether Effendi specifically got the information from Bayhaqi or another source, but since its unlikely Effendi got it from God and it was a saying that clearly predates him I'm guessing he picked it up from one of the pre-existing sources.

I doubt Muhammed said it because the Quran most probably post-dates Muhammad, so I can't see the likelihood of Muhammad referring to something that is unlikely to have existed in His lifetime.

As far as your question concerning whether it was any kind of revelation, I don't believe it was revelation whether it was said by Muhammad or not, although as explained, I doubt Muhammad said it.

So should effendi do some research, go about in the world a bit, and study some scholarship etc rather than repeating what someone said? How about all the Qur'an uploaded in the cloud as Pdf's, docs and strings? Will they vanish? Do they

You appear to be misunderstanding what whoever invented this hadith was saying. They said that the outer form of the Quran (ie it's words) would remain. This would allow it to be uploaded to clouds as PDFs, docs and strings etc. What would be lost according to the person who made it up is the meaning of the Quran or the correct understanding of it.

Do you know who bayhaqi is? Was he a hadith scholar or a narrator? What were his scholarly analysis? Have you thought about it?

Tell me Daniel. Which book of bayhaqi did Effendi take this from?

Thanks.

Although there is a wikipedia article on Bayhaqi I can't be bothered looking it up. He was from a different sect of Islam to you anyway if I recall, so it's not like you would necessarily agree with his conclusion about the authenticity of the hadith if he even commented on it.

In my opinion.

 

[1213]

Well I can't speak for others of course, but there is a direct correlation with education, and especially higher education and a reduction in religiosity.

"Higher education" must mean more drugs used.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What are the forces at play for such a seismic shift?

I think an important aspect here, is the internet and accessibility thereof.

People today are far more exposed to the outside world then ever before. By "outside", I mean outside of one's immediate environment. Without such easy communication tools, we are pretty much confined to our own social bubbles in our very small corner of the world.

And without those tools, we also know a lot less about what goes on in those bubbles then with them.
The internet and easy access to it, is responsible for an extreme change in how we gather and access information.

Before the internet, the Vatican was able to cover up any scandal within any of their congregations. With the internet, where things go viral very fast, this is a lot harder.
You are also far more exposed to what goes on at the other side of the world, to other cultures, other religions, other denominations of your own religion, etc etc.

People tend to stick to the cultural principals and general beliefs of the environment they grow up in. This is how you can guess someone's religion by their geographic origins.

But in a world where your exposure field is expanded to way beyond your own social bubble, it will become harder to keep people in line within that bubble, according to the standards of that bubble.

Countries like China understand that. This is why they build a digital wall around the country. To try and still control "the narrative" in cyberspace.

 

[firedragon]

You free to have your point of view as I am too.

But you didnt answer any question.

Effendi repeated what was attributed to Muhammad by others who went before him.

Okay. SO he just repeated. Nice. Thanks.

I doubt Muhammed said it because the Quran most probably post-dates Muhammad,

You are getting into an area you have not studied. Just making random comments to pull out a new topic within another topic. Something you had glanced through on some website or some shallow reading.

Tsk.

 

[firedragon]

That’s your opinion.

If it's my opinion only, could just show me where it says so in the Qur'an?

Thanks.

 

[firedragon]

I quoted that just to show that according to traditions which Buddhists believe in, Buddhism will decline and a new Buddha will arise. That’s was all what I intended to show.

So I have no idea about all the pali terminologies because I’m talking only about the decline of religion.

I asked because you havre claimed you studied the Pali canon. That's the reason. And you had said so many Pali terms in your post above. The one I responded to. SO it's only inevitable someone would ask the question.

 

[loverofhumanity]

But you didnt answer any question.



Okay. SO he just repeated. Nice. Thanks.



You are getting into an area you have not studied. Just making random comments to pull out a new topic within another topic. Something you had glanced through on some website or some shallow reading.

Tsk.

If I didn’t I apologise but I tried to.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If it's my opinion only, could just show me where it says so in the Qur'an?

Thanks.

Then if you don’t believe it’s in the Quran then nothing I say is going to convince you, but for me it’s as clear as day.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I asked because you havre claimed you studied the Pali canon. That's the reason. And you had said so many Pali terms in your post above. The one I responded to. SO it's only inevitable someone would ask the question.

The topic is about decline of religion so that is all I was addressing.

 

[firedragon]

Then if you don’t believe it’s in the Quran then nothing I say is going to convince you,

Not if you give the exact verse. Otherwise it's not relevant.

The topic is about decline of religion so that is all I was addressing.

That's good. I appreciate anyone who addresses the topic.

 

[danieldemol]

You are getting into an area you have not studied.

I read through the first 121 pages of 435 of "Creating the Quran" by Dr. Stephen Shoemaker, it is pretty solid on evidence so far.

Just making random comments to pull out a new topic within another topic.

You asked whether I believed Muhammad said it, answering no and explaining why was hardly random.

Something you had glanced through on some website or some shallow reading.

You are dismissing Dr shoemaker who is deeply learned in the field of scriptural studies because you don't like his conclusion, however shallowly handwaving away 400 pages of evidence from one of the most learned people in the field does not serve as an adequate rebuttal to his conclusion.

In my opinion.

 

[blü 2]

Some countries in the West including New Zealand where I live and the USA where many people on this forum live, are witnessing an unprecedented decline in religion. The process of declining numbers are more pronounced in New Zealand. Only a third of our population identify as Christian whereas over 100 years ago it was more than 90 percent. The decline is accelerating here, not slowing down. Our most recent census in 2018 recorded 37% Christian whereas only 5 years previously it was 48%.

Religion in New Zealand - Wikipedia

On the other hand the numbers of those who identified as having no religion have risen dramatically. 49% identify as having no religion in 2018 compared to 42% in 2013.

What are the forces at play for such a seismic shift? Is it because religion has fallen into disrepute? Will the USA follow other Western countries like New Zealand with an unprecedented exodus from religion?

I suspect ideas about science, now included in all Western education, can't be helpful to supernatural beliefs; but that's been increasing true since the Enlightenment. Discoveries in geology by the end of the 18th century were already putting pressure on biblical explanations and timelines, and by the 1830s, in England first, more slowly in the US, skepticism of the bible as literal truth in such matters was common among the educated. With the publication of Darwin's Origin of Species 1859 the scientific critique of such matters made the debate far more general (far more middle-class, if you like).

The modern process, I think, likely begins with the coming of TV after WW2, which allowed people, single or families, to stay home for their entertainment, up a clear notch from radio. A declining participation in community service organizations like Rotary, Lions &c was already noticed by the latter 1960s.

I think the net, for email, news and general information, and the cell phone, have much further altered the social landscape and brought in a new mindset as a second generation, or third, grows up taking such communications for granted.

So physical gathering, the old idea of community, is much more rarely anyone's chief means of communication or source of information ─ that, along with the easier diffusion of skeptical viewpoints.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Not if you give the exact verse. Otherwise it's not relevant.



That's good. I appreciate anyone who addresses the topic.

I always appreciate your candid views and for expecting the highest standards from me. It helps me become aware of my needs to improve and it helps me grow.

We are all learning.