The decline of traditional religion in the West

[loverofhumanity]

This is what I was responding to.

So where is a religion that is trying to unite people? Which religion is not divided into several sects? Which religion addresses the needs of today? Which religion believes it is promoting unity?



Which religion thinks it has the answers and a path to bring about world peace?

Which religion thinks it is creating love and justice for all people?

Which religion thinks that it has the new teacher sent from God to renew religion?

No, it is not specifically about the Baha'i Faith. It is indirectly about the Baha'i Faith, especially LH's post where it says that the scriptures of the other religions says that their religion will decay and then what happens? A new teacher appears... a savior... a prophet of God that brings the new teachings from God and renews religion. If not the Baha'i Faith, then "specifically" who is that new teacher that LH is talking about?

And decline of Islam. This was also quoted by Shoghi Effendi in ‘The Promised Day is Come’.

There will come a time upon the people when nothing will remain of Islam except its name only and nothing will remain of the Quran except its inscription. Their mosques will be splendidly furnished but destitute of guidance. Their divines will be the worst people under the heaven and strife will issue from and avert to them.”

Conclusion of the 14th Century and A Moment of Reflection for the Muslims

 

[RestlessSoul]

This business of trying to define "what is true," usually rephrased as "the search for Truth" (capital intended) indicates something I find odd. As you see if you look just under my handle, "Truth isn't a thing..."

Truth is nothing more than a predicate, the quality or state of being true for any proposition. It doesn't describe nouns (you can't meaningfully say, "the dog is true," or "Wednesday's are true"). It refers only to statements of fact or beliefs.

You can certainly say that "RestlessSoul believes that God is true" is a true statement, but that does not in any way imply that "God is true" is true, because statement speaks only to ReslessSoul's belief, not that which is believed.

"Pi is an irrational number is true," but probably only important to mathematicians. "Pi = 3.14" is only approximately true, and in today's ultra-precise technologies, not even usefully true.

So you'll do yourself an enormous favour in reasoning by stop looking for something called "Truth" as if you could box it up and keep it in your sock drawer.

You can say a dog is true to it's nature, in a way that very few humans ever are; maybe animals are closer to a deeper truth, one from which we are alienated by the very intellect and reason which supposedly places us at the head of the animal kingdom. Maybe. Just a thought.

Isn't beauty a noun? An abstract noun, to be precise. I expect John Keats understood that when he wrote;

"Beauty is truth, truth beauty, - that is all
Ye know on Earth, and all ye need to know."

- Ode on a Grecian Urn

Mathematician and theoretical physicist Paul Dirac shared a similar insight a century and a half later;

"I think that there is a moral to this story, in that it is better to have beauty in one's equations than to have them fit experiment...it seems that if one is working from the point of view of getting beauty into one's equations, and if one has a really sound insight, one is on a sure line of progress."

- Scientific American, May 1963

The insight these two great minds shared, is not that truth and beauty are literally the same - never take a poet literally - but that they are correlated; and that we may struggle to define or comprehend them, but we know when we are in their presence. Keats you may - misguidedly, I would argue - dismiss as a mere dreamer, but Dirac was a scientist, and the modern atheist mind reveres science does it not? Truth may be elusive, mercurial, it may take a Keats or a Dirac to articulate it, but it is always worthy of the effort of discovery. So where is truth to be found? Within ourselves, perhaps;

"This above all: To thine own self be true,
And it must follow as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man."

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You must be employing a third definition of truth here, one that considers undemonstrable intuitions truth. The empiricist doesn't count such ideas as truth, since they can't be used to describe or anticipate nature. Furthermore, whenever I've asked what some of these spiritual truths gleaned by this other way of knowing are, I get no answers unless they are other vague, undemonstrable intuitions.

Tomas Merton wrote of the truth he experienced. It's not something that can be tested for in a scientific lab. People can test it by conducting inner research and experimentation.

‘is that in fact it is sometimes possible to see that things become transparent. They are no longer opaque and they no longer hide God…life is as simple as this. We are living in a world that is absolutely transparent, and God is shining through it all the time. This is not just a fable or a nice story, it is true. And this is something we are not able to see. But if we abandon ourselves to Him and forget ourselves we see it sometimes and we see it maybe frequently: that God manifests Himself everywhere, in everything – in people and in things and in nature and in events and so forth. So that it becomes very obvious that He is everywhere, he is in everything, and we cannot be without Him. You cannot be without God. It’s impossible, it’s just simply impossible.’

OK. Thanks for providing what I presume you are offering as an example of a spiritual truth.

I don't consider apprehensions like the one you described truth for reasons already given. You've described the spiritual experience, which is a sense of connection, mystery, awe, and gratitude brought on by a starry sky or a moving piece of music, but I believe that to be a subjective assessment similar to experiencing something as beautiful or delicious, which I also wouldn't call truth about the world, but if the experience is reproducible, perhaps it could be called truth about oneself and how one processes information.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This is what I was responding to.

So where is a religion that is trying to unite people? Which religion is not divided into several sects? Which religion addresses the needs of today? Which religion believes it is promoting unity?



Which religion thinks it has the answers and a path to bring about world peace?

Which religion thinks it is creating love and justice for all people?

Which religion thinks that it has the new teacher sent from God to renew religion?

No, it is not specifically about the Baha'i Faith. It is indirectly about the Baha'i Faith, especially LH's post where it says that the scriptures of the other religions says that their religion will decay and then what happens? A new teacher appears... a savior... a prophet of God that brings the new teachings from God and renews religion. If not the Baha'i Faith, then "specifically" who is that new teacher that LH is talking about?

About decline again. This time Buddhism. Yes the thread is not about the Baha’i Faith but it is impossible to disassociate or divorce the decline of religion spoken of by the various scriptures from the appearance of a new Teacher to renew religion.

As you can see from this and other scriptures the decline is always linked to renewal like day follows night.


In the Anāgatavaṃsa commentary, the Buddha is said to preface the account of the future Buddha Ariya Metteyya by saying his own dispensation will disappear in five stages: (1) the disappearance of analytical insight (paṭisambhidā), (2) the disappearance of the Paths and Fruition States, (3) the disappearance of the practice (paṭipatti), (4) the disappearance of the texts (pariyatti), and (5) the disappearance of the Saṅgha.


https://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh381_U-...a.html#TheDurationoftheS257sanaofBuddhaGotama


The Bible speaks about the ‘Sun and moon not giving light. This is talking about spiritual enlightenment. That Christianity will be in decline spiritually. It’s leaders will be turned towards worldly pleasures as we have seen recently. But the decline began long ago. The leaders who were once stars of guidance fell into worldly desires so are fallen stars. The Bible is primarily about God and His religions.

Matthew 24:29

And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moonshall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven..

Every religion’s own scriptures foretell it’s decline. Today nothing short of world inclusiveness will work in bringing peace.

 

[firedragon]

discrepancies between the methodology of the survey and your "analysis" of the data.

The analysis is not mine.

it was clear that the chart itself didn't reflect what you said about it.

Maybe rather than being obsessed to insult someone to feel better about yourself, ask your question so the other person can respond.

Unless your need is different as you have been showing so far.

So if you have any specifics you wish to ask, just ask. And of course I will ignore your cheap remarks apt for some uncivilised environment.

Have a good day.

 

[firedragon]

There will come a time upon the people when nothing will remain of Islam except its name only and nothing will remain of the Quran except its inscription.

Maybe Shoghi Effendi should go about a bit in the world and observe things. Learn some scholarship, history, provenance, and do some actual research on things rather than cooking things up to make people clap.

If this is the case as you said that the Qur'an will disappear except for it's inscription, what inscription is he talking about? What inscription do you get when you memorise the Qur'an? Or get it digitised and upload it in the cloud?

Do you even think about these things?

 

[danieldemol]

Maybe Shoghi Effendi should go about a bit in the world and observe things. Learn some scholarship, history, provenance, and do some actual research on things rather than cooking things up to make people clap.

If this is the case as you said that the Qur'an will disappear except for it's inscription, what inscription is he talking about? What inscription do you get when you memorise the Qur'an? Or get it digitised and upload it in the cloud?

Do you even think about these things?

Shoghi Effendi didn't make it up.

It appears to be a hadith related either in or by Bayhaqi.

You can find it and its explanation on Sufi websites such as this one;
Nothing Will be Left of Islam Except It's Name | Signs of the Last Days 4

In my opinion.

 

[1213]

...
What are the forces at play for such a seismic shift? Is it because religion has fallen into disrepute? Will the USA follow other Western countries like New Zealand with an unprecedented exodus from religion?

I think the reason is that people don't like for example the Christian message. Unfortunately often one reason for that is, people have wrong message as Christians message, but still they like more something else. And it is like said here:

For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside to fables.
2 Tim. 4:3-4

 

[firedragon]

Shoghi Effendi didn't make it up.

It appears to be a hadith related either in or by Bayhaqi.

You can find it and its explanation on Sufi websites such as this one;
Nothing Will be Left of Islam Except It's Name | Signs of the Last Days 4

In my opinion.

So what you are saying is that Effendi repeated what Bayhaqi said, not what Muhammed said, or any kind of revelation?

Correct? No problem. Thanks for googling and providing the information.

So should effendi do some research, go about in the world a bit, and study some scholarship etc rather than repeating what someone said? How about all the Qur'an uploaded in the cloud as Pdf's, docs and strings? Will they vanish? Do they

Do you know who bayhaqi is? Was he a hadith scholar or a narrator? What were his scholarly analysis? Have you thought about it?

Tell me Daniel. Which book of bayhaqi did Effendi take this from?

Thanks.

 

[Sheldon]

dont look i dont really care

You realise you're in a debate forum right? There are other forum for sharing beliefs without debate.

to you the same

I'm not the one who dismissed someone's attempt at debating the topic, saying you don't care? Also the beliefs being debated are not mine, I am an atheist.

 

[firedragon]

About decline again. This time Buddhism. Yes the thread is not about the Baha’i Faith but it is impossible to disassociate or divorce the decline of religion spoken of by the various scriptures from the appearance of a new Teacher to renew religion.

Frankly, every single thread to a bahai is about bahai. It's a universal truth in this forum.

In the Anāgatavaṃsa commentary, the Buddha is said to preface the account of the future Buddha Ariya Metteyya by saying his own dispensation will disappear in five stages: (1) the disappearance of analytical insight (paṭisambhidā), (2) the disappearance of the Paths and Fruition States, (3) the disappearance of the practice (paṭipatti), (4) the disappearance of the texts (pariyatti), and (5) the disappearance of the Saṅgha.


https://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh381_U-...a.html#TheDurationoftheS257sanaofBuddhaGotama

1. Ariya Metteya. What in the world does that mean? Do you know?
2. Where does this name come from?
3. Who said "dispensation"? In what scripture? What is the original wording for it? What is the authenticity?
4. The 4th so called stage is about Pariyatti and its disappearance. Who termed it "texts"? Is that the real meaning? What text? How is the Buddha related to this text?
5. What about patipatti? What is the meaning of it?

Can you explain?

 

[Sheldon]

i read what you wrote and i still stand with what i said.

Without any attempt to explain why?

skeptics can go be skeptical someplace else

You don't get to tell anyone they can't post here, this is a public debate forum, and proselytising is a violation of the rules.

 

[Sheldon]

dont need to. cool if u need evifence for stuff though, but i dont.

Yes some people are content to hold beliefs based solely on blind faith alone, but the question was meant to illicit debate, you seem not have any interest in debate though, so why are you in a debate forum? There are loads of forum here for sharing blind beliefs with like minded people, this one is specifically for debate though.

Still it is refreshing to hear a theist admit openly, that they have absolutely no objective evidence for their theistic beliefs.

 

[Sheldon]

I think the reason is that people don't like for example the Christian message. Unfortunately often one reason for that is, people have wrong message as Christians message, but still they like more something else. And it is like said here:

For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside to fables.
2 Tim. 4:3-4

Well I can't speak for others of course, but there is a direct correlation with education, and especially higher education and a reduction in religiosity.

 

[Sheldon]

Tomas Merton wrote of the truth he experienced. It's not something that can be tested for in a scientific lab. People can test it by conducting inner research and experimentation.

Yes this a claim oft used here and elsewhere, but of course as if just as often pouted out, if it were a reliable method why do the results vary drastically, validating beliefs in wildly varying deities and religions. That hardy suggests the method is reliable in validating the belief, but rather it is effective in bolstering a subjective belief people are already emotionally connected to, or even heavily emotionally invested in. Throw in pressures from family and friends and cultural pressures to conform, and the lack of critical thinking this must result in, and one cold use this "method" to believe anything.

 

[Jimmy]

Yes some people are content to hold beliefs based solely on blind faith alone, but the question was meant to illicit debate, you seem not have any interest in debate though, so why are you in a debate forum? There are loads of forum here for sharing blind beliefs with like minded people, this one is specifically for debate though.

Still it is refreshing to hear a theist admit openly, that they have absolutely no objective evidence for their theistic beliefs.

i dont mind debating but with people like you im all set

 

[Jimmy]

Without any attempt to explain why?



You don't get to tell anyone they can't post here, this is a public debate forum, and proselytising is a violation of the rules.

do you know what preaching is?

 

[Jimmy]

Without any attempt to explain why?



You don't get to tell anyone they can't post here, this is a public debate forum, and proselytising is a violation of the rules.

oh i shouldve said skeptics like you as I have no problems with skeptics

 

[Twilight Hue]

Some countries in the West including New Zealand where I live and the USA where many people on this forum live, are witnessing an unprecedented decline in religion. The process of declining numbers are more pronounced in New Zealand. Only a third of our population identify as Christian whereas over 100 years ago it was more than 90 percent. The decline is accelerating here, not slowing down. Our most recent census in 2018 recorded 37% Christian whereas only 5 years previously it was 48%.

Religion in New Zealand - Wikipedia

On the other hand the numbers of those who identified as having no religion have risen dramatically. 49% identify as having no religion in 2018 compared to 42% in 2013.

What are the forces at play for such a seismic shift? Is it because religion has fallen into disrepute? Will the USA follow other Western countries like New Zealand with an unprecedented exodus from religion?

I think people want the actual truth and are getting tired of pretending something is true when it's not.

It's a case of genuine vs artificial, lifting the facade that some religions bring about which would account for people leaving religious beliefs.

 

[Link]

And decline of Islam. This was also quoted by Shoghi Effendi in ‘The Promised Day is Come’.

There will come a time upon the people when nothing will remain of Islam except its name only and nothing will remain of the Quran except its inscription. Their mosques will be splendidly furnished but destitute of guidance. Their divines will be the worst people under the heaven and strife will issue from and avert to them.”

Conclusion of the 14th Century and A Moment of Reflection for the Muslims

Salam

What you have to know per words of Ahlulbayt (a), all prophecies concerning end times and future are conditional. This is why contradicting hadiths exist about them per words of Ahlulbayt (a). They are not set in stone. It would mean, this would happen, if this Surah type warnings occur. Warnings however are meant to be avoided.

The Dajjal rule is such a warning. Its not meant to happen. Its mean to be avoided. The severe warnings about his rule is so we stop it from ever happening.

I can share hadiths to this effect.

Also the hadith already occurred. And it was one man from Qum who put an end to it.

It was Khomeini (q) who made middle-east religious and other Muslim countries became religious whether Sunni or Shiite, it all was due to the revolution he lead. Even Western scholars said religion became not important in the west and it was leaning away from Christianity till revolution of Iran happened, and people began to take religion more seriously.

Before Khomeini (q) revolution, almost no where did people wear hijab in Muslim countries.