-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
The decline of traditional religion in the West
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
This business of trying to define "what is true," usually rephrased as "the search for Truth" (capital intended) indicates something I find odd. As you see if you look just under my handle, "Truth isn't a thing..."
Truth is nothing more than a predicate, the quality or state of being true for any proposition. It doesn't describe nouns (you can't meaningfully say, "the dog is true," or "Wednesday's are true"). It refers only to statements of fact or beliefs.
You can certainly say that "RestlessSoul believes that God is true" is a true statement, but that does not in any way imply that "God is true" is true, because statement speaks only to ReslessSoul's belief, not that which is believed.
"Pi is an irrational number is true," but probably only important to mathematicians. "Pi = 3.14" is only approximately true, and in today's ultra-precise technologies, not even usefully true.
So you'll do yourself an enormous favour in reasoning by stop looking for something called "Truth" as if you could box it up and keep it in your sock drawer.
Tomas Merton wrote of the truth he experienced. It's not something that can be tested for in a scientific lab. People can test it by conducting inner research and experimentation.
‘is that in fact it is sometimes possible to see that things become transparent. They are no longer opaque and they no longer hide God…life is as simple as this. We are living in a world that is absolutely transparent, and God is shining through it all the time. This is not just a fable or a nice story, it is true. And this is something we are not able to see. But if we abandon ourselves to Him and forget ourselves we see it sometimes and we see it maybe frequently: that God manifests Himself everywhere, in everything – in people and in things and in nature and in events and so forth. So that it becomes very obvious that He is everywhere, he is in everything, and we cannot be without Him. You cannot be without God. It’s impossible, it’s just simply impossible.’
Self isolation – without the worry | Fiona Gardner
Sand Dancer
Currently catless
The US is finally starting to catch up with the other developed nations, but sadly, the undeveloped nations are embracing religion. People that live in countries where they are hurting, sick, poor and desperate are more likely to embrace religions, and personally, I think that the predatory religions want to keep people desperate to perpetuate their religion.
Pretty much.
For example, for a truth to be absolute, it would have to be shown to be correct regardless of other circumstances. Hence it would need to disprove things that by nature aren't disprovable, like Last Thursdayism, or that we are actually elements of a superbeing's Tron game, and so on.
Can a statement be true without predictive power? I suspect so. For example, it's true that my mother's mother's name was Ethel but that might predict what we'll find if we look at her death certificate. But "Yesterday I saw a bird of a kind I didn't recognize" may be true without having predictive power. However, you'd be at liberty to dismiss it, or give it a maybe /maybe not status, because it's otherwise unevidenced.
Reality is the world external to the self, aka nature &c, which we know about through our senses, yes. But one of the big things about the Enlightenment was the idea of skeptical reasoned enquiry, which in its modern form is always self-conscious about maximizing objectivity ─ think of scientific method's requirements of description of method, peer review, personal honesty, repeatability, as examples, or double-blind testing in psychological experiments (and ESP testing for that matter). Never perfect, perhaps, but no competitor when it comes to exploring, describing and explaining reality.
I think the wording could be improved to acknowledge the successes, but essentially, yes, it's what we should always aim for when we're looking for what is true.
That's why traffic cops use cameras, of course. (And maybe why some cops turn their body cameras off from time to time.)
Something like this?
X is a sentient being.
X perfectly and instantly perceives the entirety of spacetime.
X perfectly and instantly comprehends everything included in and implied by that perception.
Therefore X's perception and comprehension are universal.
First catch your X, as Mrs Beeton might have said.
Dao Hao Now
Active Member
I’ve managed to do all that without religion…..
Funny ol’ world eh?
Just so.
I remember many years ago encountering a discussion of the question "Are numbers real?", which was when I first consciously noticed there were no uninstantiated 2s running around in the wild. (If I ever run into Roger Penrose, I'll tell him what I think of his mathematical platonism.)
Great cartoon, by the way.
Thanks for posting some figures from Pew research. The trends in regards religious affiliation globally are quite different from those in Western countries. In New Zealand we now have well over half the population who would not identify with any religion. A similar trend of decline of Christianity in the USA along with a rise of the 'nones' is clear. However as we both appreciate, having no religious affiliation does not necessarily mean atheism.
Another major part of the story that I omitted, is the overall rise in numbers of adherents from other religious such as Hinduism, Islam and Buddhism. This trend is mostly on account of migration. People from New Zealand and the USA do convert to these other world religions and many besides but the main increase is currently due to migration.
There have been a lot of excellent and thoughtful post in this thread. I know some of the participants used to consider themselves Christian but no longer do. My understanding of surveys from those who leave Christianity, is the main experience is 'the lights go out', rather than a traumatic experience. The Christian narrative no longer fits or makes sense. The prominence of evangelical Christianity that purports to represent Christianity as a whole (they don't) has accelerated Christianity's rapid fall in numbers in many Western countries.
My personal experience as one who has grown up Christian and identified as Christian is the exclusive "I'm right and you're wrong" mentality amongst the evangelicals caused to me look for a more inclusive faith. That led me to a faith (Baha'i) that shares many of the values and beliefs of Christianity, but would not be considered 'Christian'.
This thread isn't about the Baha'i Faith specifically. You may wish to start another thread. Cheers.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
This is what I was responding to.
So where is a religion that is trying to unite people? Which religion is not divided into several sects? Which religion addresses the needs of today? Which religion believes it is promoting unity?
Which religion thinks it has the answers and a path to bring about world peace?
Which religion thinks it is creating love and justice for all people?
Which religion thinks that it has the new teacher sent from God to renew religion?
No, it is not specifically about the Baha'i Faith. It is indirectly about the Baha'i Faith, especially LH's post where it says that the scriptures of the other religions says that their religion will decay and then what happens? A new teacher appears... a savior... a prophet of God that brings the new teachings from God and renews religion. If not the Baha'i Faith, then "specifically" who is that new teacher that LH is talking about?
@CG Didymus looks like this thread is open for Baha'is to teach Baha'i faith but not for anyone to respond/refute them.
One has to wonder why such a thread is in a debate forum.
In my opinion.
One has to wonder why such a thread is in a debate forum.
In my opinion.
Last edited:
ppp
Well-Known Member
One of the factors is that people are less likely to be abused if they do not identify as Christian, or at the very least, religious, then they were 100 years ago. 100 years ago, what percentage of the 90% identified as Christian to avoid being shunned, if not worse? I have no idea.
The Abrahamic religious are authoritarian systems. It has become abundantly clear that authoritarian systems:
- are led by people who have no evidence that they know what they are talking about
- are led by people more interested in maintaining the status quo than in truth
- are not a demonstrable sources for understanding or wisdom
- are unable to admit when their beliefs do not reflect reality
- unable to admit when their beliefs increase human suffering
- declare infallibility, rendering themselves unable to acknowledge when it is inevitably discovered that some of their beliefs are profoundly immoral.
- use codependent methods for retaining followers; such as shunning and threats while declaring their love of said individuals..
- are largely indistinguishable from political groups.
- possess no reliable path to truth,
Last edited by a moderator:
ppp
Well-Known Member
Survey says...Ding!
firedragon
Veteran Member
Every school goer in logic or philosophy knows. You are making comments about deceptiveness and utter nonsense for some statistics shared about an OP which is probably innocently done.
Ad hominem.
Maybe you think others are like you. Maybe people are different, so don't make comments about others thinking they are like you.
Last edited:
firedragon
Veteran Member
They are good.
firedragon
Veteran Member
ppp
Well-Known Member
Then you should have gone to class. Or if you did go, at least have paid attention. For that matter you should have paid attention to the discrepancies between the methodology of the survey and your "analysis" of the data. Even if you didn't read the article, it was clear that the chart itself didn't reflect what you said about it.
Perhaps it was merely careless ignorance on your part. Though, considering the nature of your posts, I would be surprised if you were either.
No the Baha’i Faith has not brought peace yet, and that is an unfair question because we have not been around thousands of years not even a 200, so we have not been in a situation to implement the Baha’i teachings in society as there is currently no Baha’i country or nation.
The religions cannot unite on the grounds they believe the others are false. Only recognition of the truth of each religion can unite them. Many people have studied the various religions and come to the conclusion that they are all right and true and all teach the truth. The outdated refers to the social laws as the spiritual virtues and values such as love and justice are eternal. But the main cause of disunity are the religious leaders as they do not seek peace mostly but power and authority.
Today we need a world vision, a view that embraces all and includes all not limited. The views that are taught by clergy that only their religion can save one’s soul needs to be challenged and discredited because it is causing exclusivity and creating divisiveness and such teachings will never bring about peace if we consider ourselves superior to others.
The Baha’i solutions have not been given a chance yet to see whether they work or not. The world could always adopt them temporarily and if they don’t work then go back to their warring ways.
All the other religions founded great civilisations in their time but so far are unable to unite even themselves how much more the world.
So it is time to try something new. The previous medicine doesn’t heal the illnesses of our age so we need a new remedy. We need to try something new.
Only the passage of time will give us these answers because deeds will be the only thing that will be acceptable to people and it takes time and a lot of hard work to unite people in reality and not only words.
So until it becomes obvious to one and all throughout the world, we just have to wait and see how it all unfolds.
Just to confirm it yes in the scriptures of many faiths it speaks of a decline and then a renewal with the appearance of a new Teacher. You know Who we believe that to be.
But it falls in line with what this thread is about and that is the decline of religion. It is prophesied to happen. But even so, people are in denial despite witnessing their own helplessness to fix todays problems. And the Baha’i Faith, after it has fulfilled its mission will decline also. Just like the seasons repeat each year. Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter. So too with religion.
This is direct scripture from the Bhagavad-Gita about the decline and renewal of religion with the reappearance of a Manifestation of God. Nothing to do with the Baha’i Faith and this is thousands of years before Baha’u’llah or Christ and Muhammad came onto the scene.
So after reading this, it should come as no surprise that according to this sacred scripture, Prophets, Educators, Avatars, Manifestations or however one chooses to call Them, will continue to appear from age to age to renew religion and get rid of evil, corruption and wickedness.
7. Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion – at that time I descend Myself.
8. To deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I Myself appear, millennium after millennium.
(Bhagavad-Gita Chapter 4 verse 7-8)