The Definition Of "libertarian"

[Iti oj]

Also comparing freedom to free association is dishonest.

 

[Revoltingest]

...to own a slave if you want.

Real libertarians oppose slavery.
It would seem too obvious to need explaining, but slaves (being people) would have their
liberty greatly infringed due to the nature of slavery, ie, being the property of another.

 

[Alceste]

This is another example of your dishonesty, since I've openly advocated
anarchosocialism, which is based entirely on voluntary relationships.
While you might be a fan of it too, as a member of the socialist forum,
you have advocated government imposition.....not very libertarian.

I advocate government intervention for the prevention of monopolies and the protection of the environment, same as you.

 

[Revoltingest]

Also comparing freedom to free association is dishonest.

"Dishonest" is the wrong word, since there is no intent to mislead another.
Think more of differing perspectives.
In the context of libertarian thought, what do you think "freedom" is?

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Real libertarians oppose slavery.
It would seem too obvious to need explaining, but slaves (being people) would have their
liberty greatly infringed due to the nature of slavery, ie, being the property of another.

Same with people who labor under minimum wage with no union to protect them.

 

[Revoltingest]

I advocate government intervention for the prevention of monopolies and the protection of the environment, same as you.

Of course, you've advocated far more than that.
But you'd do well to make the thread less about yourself or about me.
A general & standard definition of "libertarian" is what the thread covers.

 

[Alceste]

"Dishonest" is the wrong word, since there is no intent to mislead another.
Think more of differing perspectives.
In the context of libertarian thought, what do you think "freedom" is?

I think the ultimate arbiter of one's lifestyle and behavior should be their own conscience, perhaps mitigated by honest persuasion by other stakeholders in the community in which they live. I reject state coercion as a tool for social control.

 

[Alceste]

Of course, you've advocated far more than that.
But you'd do well to make the thread less about yourself or about me.
A general & standard definition of "libertarian" is what the thread covers.

Oh have I? Perhaps you could give me a couple of examples.

 

[Revoltingest]

Same with people who labor under minimum wage with no union to protect them.

Is it really necessary to point out that mnimum wage workers are not owned by their employer?

 

[Tarheeler]

If Badran (staff guy) is correct, then US usage would prevail.
Consider how the media use the term "libertarian"...

We've been arguing about this for well over a year, and I really have no intention of carrying on with it any longer. You asked for clarification on the new criteria, and I provided it.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

A general & standard definition of "libertarian" is what the thread covers.

And we already have that definition.

Libertarian: This term means very different things depending on where one is located, but the general philosophy is that liberty is paramount. In the US, it is generally used to describe right-libertarianism; this ideology tends to be socially liberal and fiscally conservative, and can be described as minarchist. In Europe, the term is typically used for left-libertarianism; this ideology stresses social justice and individual freedom, and is often described as libertarian socialism. People who find themselves in this ideology often identify with political organizations such as: the Libertarian Party (US), the Libertarian Party of Canada, the Occupy Movement, and the “New Left” Movement.

 

[Alceste]

We've been arguing about this for well over a year, and really have no intention of carrying on with it any longer. You asked for clarification on the new criteria, and I provided it.

Thank you for that. I'm still a little unclear as to whether I am welcome to post here though. Is this a libertarian sub or a Revoltingest vs. Revoltingest one on one?

 

[Revoltingest]

Oh have I? Perhaps you could give me a couple of examples.

I could. But it smells of thread derailment & personal conflict.
A more productive direction:
If you are socially liberal, & advocate only the type of socialism which is voluntary,
then you would be "libertarian", without the need to specify "right" or "left".
Would this describe your beliefs?

Hmmm.....it seems that I could post in the Socialist Only forum under the new rules.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

We've been arguing about this for well over a year, and really have no intention of carrying on with it any longer. You asked for clarification on the new criteria, and I provided it.

Translation: Give it up, because it ain't gonna happen. They are not going to change the definition to suit a conservative.

 

[Revoltingest]

Thank you for that. I'm still a little unclear as to whether I am welcome to post here though. Is this a libertarian sub or a Revoltingest vs. Revoltingest one on one?

I'm just some guy who posts here.
Where you can or can't post is between you & your god....er, mod.

 

[Iti oj]

Did you like how I called you "dessert"?
I thought that metaphor was frubalworthy.
Give it up, man!

You right. Give me a sec

 

[Tarheeler]

I have noticed that myself. Perhaps it's the consequence of a whole generation of anti-Soviet propaganda and histrionics during the cold war. Can't be easy for Americans to shake the spectre of the "evil communist" after all that indoctrination.

That, and the Red Scares. What better way to demonize your political opponents than to link them to a foreign danger. Prior to that, socialists were in every level of government and helped to make many of the changes we see as fundamental rights today.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We have new definitions, folks....
http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...3-definitions-restricted-political-areas.html
Let's look at ours....
Note that it includes the European "libertarian socialism".
Let's see what Wikipedia (a neutral source) has to say about libertarian socialism....
No "private property in the means of production" & opposition to "wage labor" directly
conflict with the N American libertarian value of free association, both social & economic.

I'm confused. As far as I knew, Libertarianism was all about the free market and private ownership of production/distribution? But, according to the classification of social anarchism, I could post in the Libertarian thread, even though Libertarian, from what I knew, is a label that barely applies to me because of my views of owning the means of distribution/production and promoting social equality above maximizing freedoms.
It seems the more specific we try to be with labels, the more confusing things get.

 

[Alceste]

I could. But it smells of thread derailment & personal conflict.
A more productive direction:
If you are socially liberal, & advocate only the type of socialism which is voluntary,
then you would be "libertarian", without the need to specify "right" or "left".
Would this describe your beliefs?

Hmmm.....it seems that I could post in the Socialist Only forum under the new rules.

I subscribe to the common view that left / right is an economic spectrum upon which I sit about as far as possible to the left. The libertarian / authoritarian spectrum has nothing to do with our preferred models for the organization of production and everything to do with receptivity to state coercion. On this spectrum I sit almost as far as possible to the libertarian end.

Edit: your table, which substitutes populism for authoritarianism, makes no logical sense to me, so I won't be using it.

 

[Revoltingest]

We've been arguing about this for well over a year, and really have no intention of carrying on with it any longer. You asked for clarification on the new criteria, and I provided it.

I know, but I see problems with the definitions (which arrived last month).
So I'm giving my recommendations for improvement. I suffer from no
illusion that anyone will agree. But a guy's gotta do what calls to'm.