The Definition Of "libertarian"

[Revoltingest]

What post number do I owe you frubal for? It got buried before I got a chance.

Pick a number...any number!
I don't know which one labeled you "dessert".
Are you going to tell everyone that you're scrumptious now?

 

[Iti oj]

It sure seems so to me.
I have always been able to:
- Pick my customers
- Pick my employers
- Set my prices
- Quit when I want
- Change jobs when I want
- Negotiate wages & bennies
- Switch banks when I want
- Lend money when I want
- Borrow money when I want....& someone's willing to lend
- Do as I please regardless of anyone's religion
- Deal with anyone of any political persuasion
This seems like a whole lotta liberty.

If a government told me whom to work for, prohibited me from owning my
business+assets, or otherwise prevented me from associating with people when
I wanted, then this is the opposite of liberty.

But I don't want to do any of that.... But I have to. In ls you don't have to participate. You can literally just leave.

You also forgot about buying and selling land.

 

[Revoltingest]

But I don't want to do any of that.... But I have to. In ls you don't have to participate. You can literally just leave.

This isn't very clear to me. But I'll add that in any society, unless you're royalty, there will always be some imposition upon you.
In a hunter gatherer society, if you don't hunt or gather you starve.
In a communist society, if you don't work, then it's off to a gulag with you.
In Americastan, if you choose not to work, then it's a lower standard of living (the dole).
The question is how much freedom one has in doing what it takes to survive.
In capitalism, I have more liberty (ie, choices) in life.

You also forgot about buying and selling land.

I'm sure I forgot many things.
But since my business includes land as a "means of production", I think I had that covered.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If you're socially liberal, & allow voluntary economic relationships, including
both capitalism & communism, then I'd say you're a libertarian.

If you want to have a capitalist commune, that's your choice. The communist communes just probably won't have an alliance with you.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Is it?

Only if you are wealthy.

 

[Revoltingest]

If you want to have a capitalist commune, that's your choice. The communist communes just probably won't have an alliance with you.

Oh, you'd be surprised.
Cappies & commies often have mutual interests.
Anyone who treats me honestly & fairly gets some'o my sugar!
(I detest people who are dishonest or mean.)

I just made up "cappies".
Like it?

 

[Tarheeler]

To distinguish from the capitalistic system. Were not Capistrano's
Capitalist. We are socialist. You are a capitalist. Were both Libertarians.

Now it seems we can agree...

Well put, Iti oj.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

You'll have the answer to your erroneous question if you read the thread...including my posts.
Voluntary socialism is simply "libertarian"....without any preffix or suffix.
Government imposed socialism is not "libertarian"....no matter what suffix one adds.

Voluntary socialism is the only form of libertarian socialism?

 

[Alceste]

I wasn't actually referring to you, but thanks for the response.



Well, I don't think that's really the issue or a reasonable solution insofar as the rules of an indiviudal internet forum are concerned. Since people seem to have one of two general views of "libertarianism," which are somewhat incompatible with each other, perhaps a more workable solution would be to separate the subforum into two, more specifically defined subforums, so that each contingent can freely discuss their particular views and ideas, without threads tending to devolve into arguments based on differing ideas of what libertarianism is.

Then again, I suspect many people are here more for arguing than for earnest discussion, so it might be fine left the way it is.

Well, we have a capitalist and a socialist DIR already, so perhaps this DIR can be used to discuss the things all libertarians tend to have in common rather than our differences while the existing economic forums could be used to talk about economic models.

Really, the economic spectrum would kind of be a moot debate in a hypothetical society that is free from top down coercion. Some folks might choose an individual profit-motivated model of work, some might choose a coop or collective. As long as nobody is compelled to choose this or that model of production for themselves, neither is an affront to individual liberty.

One of my beefs with my government is that through their policies we are more or less compelled to work within in capitalist paradigm regardless of what we would prefer. Not only is our whole society structured that way, they also encourage the expansion of already bloated corporations through advertising on their behalf, giving away our natural resources for free (or close to it) to be sold on the private market, and even direct payments of tax money to the coffers of some of the richest companies in the world.

 

[Revoltingest]

Voluntary socialism is the only form of libertarian socialism?

Aye.
If you want to force it upon people, it ain't libertarian.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Do you generally go around telling people that you're a libertarian?

Anarcho-communists are also called libertarian communists and free communists. We are also often radical individualists and some of us are egoists.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I definitely learned my thing today: My views fall under left-Libertarianism (explains why so many quizes put me in a Libertarian side, angle, sector, whatever the particular quiz has), and I have another item to add to my list of complaints and grievances over "higher" education.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Anarcho-communists are also called libertarian communists and free communists. We are also often radical individualists and some of us are egoists.

Well, that sure is a lot of labels. However, it doesn't answer the question of whether you go around telling people that you are a libertarian.

 

[Iti oj]

This isn't very clear to me. But I'll add that in any society, unless you're royalty, there will always be some imposition upon you.
In a hunter gatherer society, if you don't hunt or gather you starve.
In a communist society, if you don't work, then it's off to a gulag with you.
In Americastan, if you choose not to work, then it's a lower standard of living (the dole).
The question is how much freedom one has in doing what it takes to survive.
In capitalism, I have more liberty (ie, choices) in life.
I'm sure I forgot many things.
But since my business includes land as a "means of production", I think I had that covered.

.. In libertarian socialism, since nether state or company or person owns land not being used one could leave and build a cabin in the woods or a homestead some where or.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well, that sure is a lot of labels. However, it doesn't answer the question of whether you go around telling people that you are a libertarian.

What does it matter which synonym I usually call myself? They all mean the same thing.

 

[Revoltingest]

I definitely learned my thing today: My views fall under left-Libertarianism (explains why so many quizes put me in a Libertarian side, angle, sector, whatever the particular quiz has), and I have another item to add to my list of complaints and grievances over "higher" education.

"Higher education" might be the problem. If it takes commonly understood words, &
adds definitions & complications, then eventually we're all speaking a different language.
I'm now a "socialist", while CCypher is a "libertarian". Whooda thunk it?
But you'll never find me at a Socialist Party rally, nor her at a Libertarian Party meeting.

 

[Revoltingest]

.. In libertarian socialism, since nether state or company or person owns land not being used one could leave and build a cabin in the woods or a homestead some where or.

But that would mean that no one could sell me their land.
Do we just rent it?
Do we just take it?
What if someone else wants it?
If I build a factory, how could I protect my investment in buildings & tooling if I cannot own it?

 

[Iti oj]

But that would mean that no one could sell me their land.
Do we just rent it?
Do we just take it?
What if someone else wants it?
If I build a factory, how could I protect my investment in buildings & tooling if I cannot own it?

Reread the wiki

 

[Kilgore Trout]

What does it matter which synonym I usually call myself? They all mean the same thing.

Because if one doesn't self-identify as a Libertarian, then why would they feel the need to argue that they are one, or take part in discussions on it in a specified directory for it with other people who do self-identify as such?

You don't really need to answer. This is somewhat of a rhetorical question.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Aye.
If you want to force it upon people, it ain't libertarian.

How is maximizing the freedom and liberty of people forced? I just happen that freedom and liberty of the people can be maximized if we eliminate and abolish private property. Eliminate private property and the need for big government disappears.