The Destruction of America

[CG Didymus]

the Message of Baha'u'llah pushes a person's own Faith back on to them, it tells a Christian to be a true Christian a Muslim to be a true Muslim a Baha'i to be a true Baha'i etc and with that, we will find our Oneness.

Yes, that would be great if Baha'is were telling others to be better at their own religions, and that they will work at being better at being Baha'is. But I think it is going to be usually the Baha'i that will have to take that first step. Can the Baha'i be the healer of wounds? The one that brings love and a respectful understanding between people of different religions?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hey Tony, how's the eye doing? Yes, your religion tells you who Krishna is. But that is not necessarily the same Krishna as believed by the Hindus. So is he an avatar of Vishnu? Did Krishna found a religion or is just part of a greater religion that existed prior to his coming?

It's the same old story. Baha'is are for today and the other religions are part of a progression. Their teachings are no longer relevant for what the world is facing today... making their teachings virtually obsolete. But we've been through this before.. that even though the Baha'i Faith doesn't talk too much about Hinduism, but with that little bit... Baha'is know all they need to know.

CG I can say that in no way to me, does the Message of Baha'u'llah make the message of Krishna obsolete, I see it becomes relevant as part of the progression of all Faiths and as such is made complete.

Yes, I do see some specific Laws and Rituals have have been made obsolete, but again I see fulfilment in the new laws for this age. I see there is now a balance given between a complete libral no law view of Faith and a very harsh Law based faith.

Thanks always for the Chat CG. The eye should be OK, will know in about 4 weeks.

“... The Bearers of the Trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Revealers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they, therefore, are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness..... Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of prophethood, and are honored with the mantle of glory. Thus hath Muḥammad, the Point of the Qur’án, revealed: “I am all the Prophets.” Likewise, He saith: “I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus.”

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, that would be great if Baha'is were telling others to be better at their own religions, and that they will work at being better at being Baha'is.

The Key there is CG is that we see they are also our religion, we make no difference. Thus to be a better Baha'i is to be a better follower of all Faiths.

We are not restricting Faith to a name, but encourage it to be manifested in attributes. To do that we do have to sepeate what causes division in the first place.

I ask did the Christians find the unity that was Christs Message? Have the Muslims achieved that Unity?

Now is the dawn of a new day, will the Baha'i be able to build that unity? I know they are trying to build communities all around the world that have no predudices of Faith, so it is likely it can and will happen.

RegardsTony

 

[CG Didymus]

The Key there is CG is that we see they are also our religion, we make no difference. Thus to be a better Baha'i is to be a better follower of all Faiths.

We are not restricting Faith to a name, but encourage it to be manifested in attributes. To do that we do have to sepeate what causes division in the first place.

I ask did the Christians find the unity that was Christs Message? Have the Muslims achieved that Unity?

Now is the dawn of a new day, will the Baha'i be able to build that unity? I know they are trying to build communities all around the world that have no predudices of Faith, so it is likely it can and will happen.

RegardsTony

Well the reality is... some religions get too extreme in their beliefs. Racial unity is at a place where it is going to make a major leap forward. Next, what about religions? Most all of them think they are right. And some still think they are doing "God's" work when they try to eliminate what they see as "false" religions. What do Baha'is see as a way to fix that? Or, will that too lead to great turmoil?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well the reality is... some religions get too extreme in their beliefs. Racial unity is at a place where it is going to make a major leap forward. Next, what about religions? Most all of them think they are right. And some still think they are doing "God's" work when they try to eliminate what they see as "false" religions. What do Baha'is see as a way to fix that? Or, will that too lead to great turmoil?

I see the key is not to try to eliminate Faiths, but for them to accept new frames of references, that will build a unity in our diversity.

I see Division is really self motivated, for example a Christian will not accept that Jesus Christ has offered a message from the God, who is the God of all Faiths, as then it then may mean they have not found salvation, their desire for heaven has become a veil.

There is now much written on what are the veils that Christ has returned on CG.

Back to work today, must go, stay well and happy CG.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

That would be that you need to research into why William Miller made that decision.

Here's what I found... "Thus, nothing at all happened in 508 AD to meet the criteria to start the 1,290 and 1,335 time periods. So, if not then… when will the daily be taken away that starts the 1,290 days?" Miller used the 508AD with the 1335 days to get to 1844. He also used the 2300 evenings and mornings and started them with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem and not the time when the sacrifice was stopped and the abomination set up.

Abdul Baha does the same thing... "Then from the date of the issuing of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the manifestation of the Báb there are 1844 years. When you add 456 years to this number it makes 2300 years."

The decree to rebuild Jerusalem and when the sacrifice was stopped and the abomination set up are two different things.

Daniel 8:13 the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the LORD’s people?”
14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”

Daniel 9:24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’

So, I know you believe Abdul Baha' can't be wrong, but then how do you explain this?

 

[sojourner]

Maybe you can help people who are Christians with spiritual direction and counseling, but that does not qualify you to know about other people's spiritual status, how spiritual they are. Only God knows anyone's spiritual status.

"By their fruits you shall know them." One has to be trained how and where to look and what to see.

 

[sojourner]

The context is whether they have a choice to be depressed or not, not whether they can make choices in general.

I never said that they have a choice of whether or not to be depressed. I said that they don't have to let it consume them.

I cannot even imagine a counselor telling a client they have a choice as to whether they would be depressed or not.

Again: I didn't say that. See above.

That’s true, but so what?

See above. "Depression" and "suffering" are two different things, and it makes a difference which one we're talking about.

In particular situations such as the above it is pretty obvious, but how can you know that everyone is choosing to continue in a cyclical pattern of victimhood?

I think those who allow their pain to consume them and those who keep repeating negative patterns borne out of that pain choose to suffer from that pain.

The problem is that you generalize as if everyone who suffers plays the victim role, but that is not true for everyone.

I think suffering is victimization of the self. I think you and I are basically on the same page, but I think we're using different definitions for what constitutes suffering. I see suffering as a mind set that we inflict upon ourselves.

Until he chooses to change that behavior he will not change it.

The point is, he has that choice.

I never said that only depressed people suffer but people who are depressed suffer from depression.

Not always. I have depression, but I don't suffer with depression. Again, I think you and I are using different definitions for "suffer." IMO, one doesn't stop "suffering" only when the depression is gone. One stops suffering when one makes the choice to refuse to allow the depression to define her/him as a person. I'm sure that's the point you try to get your clients to.

 

[sojourner]

I have a wife that suffers Manic Depression from extreme childhood traumas. The suffering in her life as a result has been great.

She still suffers as a result of that trauma, is still depressed often, even though she has had countless hours of counselling and has a Faith that has allowed her to live to this day, without taking the step of not being here.

It was she that introduced me to the Faith I now embrace.

So it is not that simple, as you would suggest. Nature and Nurture in our childhood becomes and imprint of our future, it will always be there and influence our mind and choices.

So I see many people suffer from Depression do not want to or choose to, nor can it always have a solution in this Material world.

My wife spirit longs not to be part of this world, it has not been kind to her, but her Love for others holds her here amongst the suffering of depression. Also we have found out that chemical imbalances in the body cause by thyroid issues, also assist.

I hope that helps the discussion between you and Trailblazer.

It may be Trailblazer can identify with a person such as my wife.

I can say my view was much like yours and it did not help my wife in any way, in fact the opposite happened.

I can only say, it is not that simple to explain Depression and the Suffering as a result.

Regards Tony

Thanks for that.

 

[Trailblazer]

"By their fruits you shall know them." One has to be trained how and where to look and what to see.

I agree that one has to be trained if they are going to treat people who have spiritual problems, but I do not think that verse applies to that. It applies to recognizing a prophet. You will know a prophet by his fruits.

 

[sojourner]

I agree that one has to be trained if they are going to treat people who have spiritual problems, but I do not think that verse applies to that. It applies to recognizing a prophet. You will know a prophet by his fruits.

I think you can know anyone by what spiritual fruit they produce. Again, you have to be discerning and intuitive and know what to look for.

 

[CG Didymus]

I see the key is not to try to eliminate Faiths, but for them to accept new frames of references, that will build a unity in our diversity.

I see Division is really self motivated, for example a Christian will not accept that Jesus Christ has offered a message from the God, who is the God of all Faiths, as then it then may mean they have not found salvation, their desire for heaven has become a veil.

There is now much written on what are the veils that Christ has returned on CG.

Back to work today, must go, stay well and happy CG.

Regards Tony

Each religion thinks they have the correct frame of reference. As we all know Christians take the same Scriptures and even they don't agree. I especially like the example of the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. They put a little excitement into going to Church. Singing, dancing, praying in the Spirit with speaking in tongues and prophesying, healings and jumping for joy, being "slain" in the spirit. Then the Churches that didn't believe in the "baptism" of the Spirit thought those other Christians were crazy and living off of their emotions. Then both of them look and Catholics and say that they lost their way and started following traditions of men and worshipping Mary and the Pope. But, all of them, took the Bible as their reference to what is true and what is of God. That leaves off all other religions, including Judaism.

Some liberal Christians have lightened up on that, but, as we know, the "Bible" believing Christians can take a literal interpretation to the extreme... like they definitely believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. God created Adam and Eve. Evolution is false. Satan rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven and is now on Earth trying to trick people into sinning and disbelieving in God... or worth... into believing false religions. So with that frame of reference, all non-Christian religions are automatically false. So how do Baha'is break through those "veils"?

I wouldn't call it being self motivated. It what people are taught is true. But, modern society is slowly breaking those veils. Scientific discoveries make believing the Bible literally very difficult. People can easily see the hypocrisy in the leaders and some of the followers in religions. People have left their old religions and are joining and trying out new religious movements. But each one of them gives the people a new "frame" of reference. The Baha'i Faith is just one of many new religious movements.

The problem is convincing people that the Baha'i frame of reference is the true one. Right now would be a great time to show the world what you got. We have a world-wide pandemic, world-wide cry for racial equality and justice, environmental catastrophes threatening the planet, the continuing threats of war in the Middle-East, the economic problems and on and on. What are the Baha'i solutions to these? Not very many people know. All they know is the Baha'i Faith is a threat to their beliefs. And even here on the forums, most threads end up in some variations of "We're right and you're wrong." "Your religion has misinterpreted the teachings of your prophet/manifestation. Our prophet has set things straight." And the arguing continues.

Like here, arguing with Deeje and Sojouner. Is any of that really that important? And I know, I've been doing it too, but I'm not the Baha'i. I don't claim to have the truth for today. How do Baha'is get their truth out there? Most of the time, it seems to me, it is the wrong "truth" that is being presented. It's like saying, "Christ has returned" to Christians is going to get a negative response. And they will find a million reasons to show you how you are wrong. And then the Baha'i show them how they are wrong. The result... zero unity, zero oneness, zero respect and understanding.

But because the Baha'i Faith is essentially saying they are wrong, that they have believed too literally, have added in traditions and misinterpretations... how do you get beyond that and stop arguing from different religious frames of reference and get to the things taught in the Baha'i Faith that can actually get people to unite and end racism... and help fix the economic and environmental problems?

All I know is that what most threads are doing, is not helping. Baha'is, in trying to do, what they think is "defending" their Faith, is pushing people away and making another layer of veils between them and the followers of the different religions.

 

[Trailblazer]

I never said that they have a choice of whether or not to be depressed. I said that they don't have to let it consume them.

I guess that would depend upon the severity of the depression and whether they could get the help they needed. A lot depends upon whether people get help, because if they could have helped themselves they probably would not be depressed. Maybe you are referring to people who just give in to the depression and do not try to fight it? I suppose some people are like that but I do not know any of them. I have been depressed all of my adult life, and I used addictions to mask it for a long time, so I never even knew I was depressed till the addiction was removed. but after that I fought the depression tooth and nail until I conquered it However, I do not think most people have the tenacity that I do. All people are very different in their personalities. Many people would rather take a drug than work on their underlying issues.

"Depression" and "suffering" are two different things, and it makes a difference which one we're talking about.

I agree.

I think those who allow their pain to consume them and those who keep repeating negative patterns borne out of that pain choose to suffer from that pain.

That might be true in some cases but I do not think it is always a choice. Free will has many constraints.

I think suffering is victimization of the self. I think you and I are basically on the same page, but I think we're using different definitions for what constitutes suffering. I see suffering as a mind set that we inflict upon ourselves.

I do not believe that all suffering is a mindset that we inflict upon ourselves. Sometimes it is unavoidable.
I do not believe people suffer because they want to, unless they are a masochist, but that is rare compared to all the people who suffer.

The point is, he has that choice.

That is what I tend to believe but I am not him so I cannot know what he is able to do differently.

Not always. I have depression, but I don't suffer with depression. Again, I think you and I are using different definitions for "suffer." IMO, one doesn't stop "suffering" only when the depression is gone. One stops suffering when one makes the choice to refuse to allow the depression to define her/him as a person. I'm sure that's the point you try to get your clients to.

I do not have any clients because I am not presently practicing as a counselor.

One can have depression and cope with it so as not to be consumed by it but one cannot have depression and also be happy because that is a logical contradiction. I mean they would not be depressed if they were happy because no counselor would diagnose someone who was happy as having depression.

According to the U.S. National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), the main symptoms and signs of depression are the following:

1. persistent sad, anxious, or "empty" mood
2. feelings of hopelessness, pessimism
3. feelings of guilt, worthlessness, helplessness
4. loss of interest or pleasure in hobbies and activities that were once enjoyed, including sex
5. decreased energy, fatigue, being "slowed down"
6. difficulty concentrating, remembering, making decisions
7. insomnia, early-morning awakening, or oversleeping
8. appetite and/or weight loss or overeating and weight gain
9. thoughts of death or suicide; suicide attempts
10. restlessness, irritability
11. persistent physical symptoms that do not respond to treatment, such as headaches, digestive disorders, and chronic pain

If you have been experiencing several of these symptoms to a degree that they have impaired or affected your life, talk to your doctor. He or she can help you find out whether or not you are suffering from depression and direct you to appropriate resources for treatment and recovery.

11 Common Depression Symptoms

 

[Trailblazer]

I think you can know anyone by what spiritual fruit they produce. Again, you have to be discerning and intuitive and know what to look for.

Maybe we can recognize the fruits of a spiritual person but I do not think we can say someone is not spiritual because they do not have what 'we might consider' fruits.

What is the point of looking at other people anyway and labeling them as spiritual or not spiritual? i do not think we should do that because we should rather be looking at ourselves and putting our own house in order. That is what I learned in the 12 step programs and it is corroborated by the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

 

[sojourner]

I guess that would depend upon the severity of the depression and whether they could get the help they needed. A lot depends upon whether people get help, because if they could have helped themselves they probably would not be depressed. Maybe you are referring to people who just give in to the depression and do not try to fight it? I suppose some people are like that but I do not know any of them. I have been depressed all of my adult life, and I used addictions to mask it for a long time, so I never even knew I was depressed till the addiction was removed. but after that I fought the depression tooth and nail until I conquered it However, I do not think most people have the tenacity that I do. All people are very different in their personalities. Many people would rather take a drug than work on their underlying issues.

Ain't that the truth! I'm sorry for your condition. I've been depressed off and on for years. Tried the meds, but didn't stick with them because they really weren't working, or else they had negative effects that were worse than the depression. Instead, I worked on the underlying issues.

That might be true in some cases but I do not think it is always a choice. Free will has many constraints.

This "theology" is a work in progress; I don't pretend to have all the answers.

I do not believe that all suffering is a mindset that we inflict upon ourselves. Sometimes it is unavoidable.
I do not believe people suffer because they want to, unless they are a masochist, but that is rare compared to all the people who suffer.

Hmm... I 'm not sure I agree. I guess I keep thinking about people I know who've become handicapped and are in wheelchairs. I know some who just gave up, became identified as "crippled" and stopped living. I'd say they're "choosing to suffer." I know some who have dealt realistically with their condition, and have not become identified as "crippled," and who live very full lives. I would say that they do not suffer. That's what I was talking about. I don't know how that fits with conditions like chronic and acute depression. It seems like we tend to equate non-suffering with happiness, and I'm not sure that's correct. I think it's worth exploring from several angles.

One can have depression and cope with it so as not to be consumed by it but one cannot have depression and also be happy because that is a logical contradiction. I mean they would not be depressed if they were happy because no counselor would diagnose someone who was happy as having depression.

See above.

According to the U.S. National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH), the main symptoms and signs of depression are the following:

1. persistent sad, anxious, or "empty" mood
2. feelings of hopelessness, pessimism
3. feelings of guilt, worthlessness, helplessness
4. loss of interest or pleasure in hobbies and activities that were once enjoyed, including sex
5. decreased energy, fatigue, being "slowed down"
6. difficulty concentrating, remembering, making decisions
7. insomnia, early-morning awakening, or oversleeping
8. appetite and/or weight loss or overeating and weight gain
9. thoughts of death or suicide; suicide attempts
10. restlessness, irritability
11. persistent physical symptoms that do not respond to treatment, such as headaches, digestive disorders, and chronic pain

If you have been experiencing several of these symptoms to a degree that they have impaired or affected your life, talk to your doctor. He or she can help you find out whether or not you are suffering from depression and direct you to appropriate resources for treatment and recovery.

Thanks for the info. I've gone down this path (and several others).

Here's a thought: what if suffering is "a lack of wholeness or of feeling whole?" Apparently, one can lack limbs and still be whole. Can one be depressed and still identify as "whole" and retain some sense of well-being? Is a lack of wholeness a root cause of depression?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Each religion thinks they have the correct frame of reference. As we all know Christians take the same Scriptures and even they don't agree. I especially like the example of the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. They put a little excitement into going to Church. Singing, dancing, praying in the Spirit with speaking in tongues and prophesying, healings and jumping for joy, being "slain" in the spirit. Then the Churches that didn't believe in the "baptism" of the Spirit thought those other Christians were crazy and living off of their emotions. Then both of them look and Catholics and say that they lost their way and started following traditions of men and worshipping Mary and the Pope. But, all of them, took the Bible as their reference to what is true and what is of God. That leaves off all other religions, including Judaism.

Some liberal Christians have lightened up on that, but, as we know, the "Bible" believing Christians can take a literal interpretation to the extreme... like they definitely believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. God created Adam and Eve. Evolution is false. Satan rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven and is now on Earth trying to trick people into sinning and disbelieving in God... or worth... into believing false religions. So with that frame of reference, all non-Christian religions are automatically false. So how do Baha'is break through those "veils"?

I wouldn't call it being self motivated. It what people are taught is true. But, modern society is slowly breaking those veils. Scientific discoveries make believing the Bible literally very difficult. People can easily see the hypocrisy in the leaders and some of the followers in religions. People have left their old religions and are joining and trying out new religious movements. But each one of them gives the people a new "frame" of reference. The Baha'i Faith is just one of many new religious movements.

The problem is convincing people that the Baha'i frame of reference is the true one. Right now would be a great time to show the world what you got. We have a world-wide pandemic, world-wide cry for racial equality and justice, environmental catastrophes threatening the planet, the continuing threats of war in the Middle-East, the economic problems and on and on. What are the Baha'i solutions to these? Not very many people know. All they know is the Baha'i Faith is a threat to their beliefs. And even here on the forums, most threads end up in some variations of "We're right and you're wrong." "Your religion has misinterpreted the teachings of your prophet/manifestation. Our prophet has set things straight." And the arguing continues.

Like here, arguing with Deeje and Sojouner. Is any of that really that important? And I know, I've been doing it too, but I'm not the Baha'i. I don't claim to have the truth for today. How do Baha'is get their truth out there? Most of the time, it seems to me, it is the wrong "truth" that is being presented. It's like saying, "Christ has returned" to Christians is going to get a negative response. And they will find a million reasons to show you how you are wrong. And then the Baha'i show them how they are wrong. The result... zero unity, zero oneness, zero respect and understanding.

But because the Baha'i Faith is essentially saying they are wrong, that they have believed too literally, have added in traditions and misinterpretations... how do you get beyond that and stop arguing from different religious frames of reference and get to the things taught in the Baha'i Faith that can actually get people to unite and end racism... and help fix the economic and environmental problems?

All I know is that what most threads are doing, is not helping. Baha'is, in trying to do, what they think is "defending" their Faith, is pushing people away and making another layer of veils between them and the followers of the different religions.

So one question CG. If Baha'u'llah is as claimed, what does that mean to other current religious views?

How would you impart that Truth?

Now also consider the arguments you have offered.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Ain't that the truth! I'm sorry for your condition. I've been depressed off and on for years. Tried the meds, but didn't stick with them because they really weren't working, or else they had negative effects that were worse than the depression. Instead, I worked on the underlying issues.

I also went down the path with various antidepressants, from 1983-1988, and I was only able to stay above the depression enough to keep my job but I was still depressed. Then I ran into a Baha'i who had had disabling manic depression all his life who had recovered completely by going for homeopathic treatment, so I went to his doctor and within a month I was off of the antidepressant I had been on and I was not depressed at all. I never took any drugs after that but I was in counseling and 12 step programs for many years during the course of my recovery.

I consider homeopathy a miracle, but I had to continue with this medicine for 10 years in order to be completely cured since my disease had many layers. But I was never clinically depressed again after that. I also have Generalized Anxiety Disorder but that was cured as well and now I am only anxious about a few things that I believe warrant anxiety.

I have PTSD from the sudden death of my father when I was 12 years old for which I got no counseling at that time, and the PTSD rears its ugly head off and on whenever I have a grief reaction from so many losses of my beloved cats. If I had never had any cats, my whole life would have been different, much easier, but there is no way to know if I would have been happier, because the cats are the primary source of happiness for me, that and the Baha'i Faith. The grief I undergo when one dies is almost unbearable, and it is so much worse if I feel responsible thus guilty about it, but the pain has gotten easier to endure over the years, since I started to turn to God. It also helps me a lot because I have other people to talk to on forums; not about the cats but about other things, because I do not think anyone but God can understand how I feel about the cats. The forums help me because they take my mind off my own suffering because I am focused on other people. What helps me most is if I can help others, but unfortunately for me I tend to overextend myself.

This "theology" is a work in progress; I don't pretend to have all the answers.

Ain't that the truth. Predestination and free will is a quagmire of astronomical proportions.
I have been discussing that with Nimos on another thread. He is an atheist who is very astute and he straightened me out about free will recently.

Hmm... I 'm not sure I agree. I guess I keep thinking about people I know who've become handicapped and are in wheelchairs. I know some who just gave up, became identified as "crippled" and stopped living. I'd say they're "choosing to suffer." I know some who have dealt realistically with their condition, and have not become identified as "crippled," and who live very full lives. I would say that they do not suffer. That's what I was talking about. I don't know how that fits with conditions like chronic and acute depression. It seems like we tend to equate non-suffering with happiness, and I'm not sure that's correct. I think it's worth exploring from several angles.

I know what you mean about disabled people in wheelchairs, even paraplegics, because I used to ride the city bus to work and there were so many of them who were so upbeat and cheerful. Then of course there are people who are not this way, people who feel sorry for themselves, but I think we need to look at the whole picture in order to understand why. Not only do people have very different childhoods, but they also have different hereditary disposition.

Both my parents had depression and anxiety, and my only sister and brother were depressed and anxious, so I have genetic predisposition to be depressed and anxious. Add to that that I did not get what I needed emotionally growing up, and it was a recipe for disaster. There are counselors who have told me it is a miracle I survived. I might have survived even without the homeopathy but I doubt I would have ever uncovered my deep-seated issues or recovered from the depression and anxiety.

So what I am saying is that since we cannot know all the factors that play into what makes a person who they are -- childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances -- I do not think we can judge them and know why they cannot overcome their suffering, or depression.

Then of course there is the spiritual element which I believe is separate from the psychological element, although the two affect each other. Until I had God on board I suffered a lot more from my grief reactions, but that is a long sad story. I still have issues with God but i am working on them. in that regard, other religious people can help me, maybe even someone such as yourself who has the training. I understand the issues I have but understanding does not always make the feelings go away. I might not share all the Christian beliefs, but I look to Christians as a source of faith since most Christians (who are not Christians in name only) have a strong faith in God. Baha'is also do but it is different because most of them are so busy with activities focused on building the new world order, so they are focused outward on societal issues much of the time.

Here's a thought: what if suffering is "a lack of wholeness or of feeling whole?" Apparently, one can lack limbs and still be whole. Can one be depressed and still identify as "whole" and retain some sense of well-being? Is a lack of wholeness a root cause of depression?

I think wholeness is mostly related to the spiritual dimension but it might have a psychological component as well.

The root cause of depression I think is going to be very different for every person, although there might be some commonalities. If the depression is genetic (endogenous) that could be a cause, which is very different from depression that is owing to childhood upbringing or present life circumstances. These have to be addressed differently.

Sometimes life circumstances cannot be changed in which case one has to learn to think about them differently, until they can be changed, if that is even possible. I went through that for many years with a job and income loss and am still in it with the cats and my husband. I just try to do the best I can under difficult circumstances as look at all the other things I have to be grateful for. Meanwhile, I know what my psychological and spiritual battles are and I continue to fight them.