The Destruction of America

[TransmutingSoul]

None of these came in the name of Yahweh....nor were they part of Israel or worshippers of Israel's God.

So I looked at Zoroaster maybe between 1500 and 1200 B.C.

Zoroastrian beliefs about God - One God

Zoroastrians believe in one God, called Ahura Mazda (meaning 'Wise Lord'). He is compassionate, just, and is the creator of the universe.

Ahura Mazda is:

• Omniscient (knows everything)
• Omnipotent (all powerful)
• Omnipresent (is everywhere)
• Impossible for humans to conceive
• Unchanging
• The Creator of life
• The Source of all goodness and happiness

God is worshiped as supreme. Zoroastrians believe that everything he created is pure and should be treated with love and respect. This includes the natural environment, so Zoroastrians traditionally do not pollute the rivers, land or atmosphere. This has caused some to call Zoroastrianism 'the first ecological religion'.

Zoroastrianism - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Did all these "messengers of God" have one message or many different messages? Did they all support one true religion?

The Messengers of God had different messages but they all supported the one true religion.

What was conveyed by the prophets in Israel.....what was their purpose? What was their message?

That depends upon which prophets you are referring to.

The God of Israel has a name...just one...he is not known in the Bible by any other name.
Exodus 3:13-15....(Tanakh)

"13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"

14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"

15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation."

In that last verse "The Lord God" is יְהֹוָ֞ה (Yahweh....Jehovah.) He alone has that name and it is above every other name. (Psalm 83:18)

Thanks for that information but why does it matter if God has a name? God is still the same God no matter what you call Him.

Jesus on the other hand is identified by the names he is given in the various roles that he played. (Philippians 2:5-11; Revelation 3:12)

Yes, I know. Do you believe the Yeshua was one of the names of Jesus? Why was He called that?

Since Baha'i do not believe in the devil, I assumed that you intended it to show that demons were not responsible for demonstrations of uncanny power in the Bible.....? If not the devil and his demons...then who? Who else is described in the Bible as having such power?

No that was not my intention. I just grabbed that website off the internet.

I do not know who else in the Bible is described as having as much power as the devil, but I would think that God has more power than the devil, since God is All-Powerful.

 

[Deeje]

So I looked at Zoroaster maybe between 1500 and 1200 B.C.

Zoroastrian beliefs about God - One God

Zoroastrians believe in one God, called Ahura Mazda (meaning 'Wise Lord'). He is compassionate, just, and is the creator of the universe.

Ahura Mazda is:

• Omniscient (knows everything)
• Omnipotent (all powerful)
• Omnipresent (is everywhere)
• Impossible for humans to conceive
• Unchanging
• The Creator of life
• The Source of all goodness and happiness

God is worshiped as supreme. Zoroastrians believe that everything he created is pure and should be treated with love and respect. This includes the natural environment, so Zoroastrians traditionally do not pollute the rivers, land or atmosphere. This has caused some to call Zoroastrianism 'the first ecological religion'.

Zoroastrianism - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

Zoroastrianism in no way reflects worship of the true God Yahweh. Any similarities between Ahura Mazda and the God of Abraham would be the devil trying to make a false god look like a true one.

Persian King Cyrus was used by Yahweh to liberate his exiled people from Babylon and God named this king as his "servant" long before he was even born. But even though the Persian King were somewhat tickled by the fact that he was named in the scripture of the Hebrews, he never became a convert to the Jewish faith, which was a necessary requirement for anyone to come to the true God. No one was permitted to worship other deities under penalty of death.

 

[Deeje]

The Messengers of God had different messages but they all supported the one true religion.

I am afraid they did not. The one true religion was from the God of Abraham.....and his God was very specific about which of Abraham's decedents was going to carry on that one true faith...Isaac and Jacob....not Ishmael. The Jews alone practiced the one true religion that was prescribed by God. They did not always do the right thing, but their failures were their own, not God's.

That depends upon which prophets you are referring to.

God's only true prophets are mentioned in the Hebrew scriptures because God recognized no others. He sent no others.

Thanks for that information but why does it matter if God has a name? God is still the same God no matter what you call Him.

If God tells his people his name (Yahweh, Jehovah) and says that this name is the one that must be used throughout their generations, then what excuse could they possibly have for losing it? How incredibly disrespectful, especially since the Bible writers themselves used Jehovah's name freely and with respect.

In David's encounter with Goliath, the young man spoke too that giant of a man and said...."You are coming against me with sword and spear and javelin, but I am coming against you in the name of Jehovah of armies, the God of the battle line of Israel, whom you have taunted."
How important was Jehovah's name to David? Why was God's name to be "hallowed"? (held sacred)

Yes, I know. Do you believe the Yeshua was one of the names of Jesus? Why was He called that?

Jesus was only his name while he was a human....in his other roles he was given names that suited what he was assigned to do. Yeshua or Yehoshua means "Yahweh is Salvation". He was the only means of salvation sent by God.

I do not know who else in the Bible is described as having as much power as the devil, but I would think that God has more power than the devil, since God is All-Powerful.

Moses' entreaty to Pharaoh to release his Hebrew slaves included Moses demonstrating God's power by his staff becoming a snake.....the Egyptians performed a similar fete by the practice of magic.....what is the difference between magic and a miracle? Who does the Bible ascribe the practice of uncanny power to? Why were the Israelites forbidden to practice spiritism? (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) If you have no belief in the devil, how do you accommodate those scriptures?

 

[Trailblazer]

I am afraid they did not. The one true religion was from the God of Abraham.....

I disagree as you know but I do not want to argue or debate. What is the point?

God's only true prophets are mentioned in the Hebrew scriptures because God recognized no others. He sent no others.

I disagree as you know but I do not want to argue or debate. What is the point?

 

[Deeje]

I disagree as you know but I do not want to argue or debate. What is the point?

Our choices determine our future......if we choose the path, we choose the destination.....that is the point. We get one shot at this.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Our choices determine our future......if we choose the path, we choose the destination.....that is the point. We get one shot at this.

Agreed.

Regards Tony

 

[sojourner]

Holding them responsible is the same thing as judging them.

I disagree.

I cannot believe that Jesus would ever say such a thing to anyone.

"Take up your bed and walk" comes pretty close.

I have an MA in Counseling Psychology, and no counselor would ever tell a client they have a choice.

sounds like bad counseling to me.

I cannot even imagine a counselor telling a client they have a choice as to whether they would be depressed or not.

Here's your problem: you're conflating depression with suffering. Not all suffering is clinical depression.

The only job for a counselor is to help the client by listening to their problems and working with them to develop a treatment plan.

...ostensibly by telling them that it's OK for them to be stuck?

Okay, so do you now admit that all people who are suffering are not wallowing in their handicap?

I've always said that.

Who do you think you are to judge people and say they are wallowing in a cyclical pattern of victimhood?

If someone says, "I had a hard upbringing and my father beat me, and that's why I can't get a decent job and be successful," then it's pretty obvious that that's what's happening with them.

How can you know that?

See above.

Everyone is not playing a victim role just because they are suffering.

Suffering is the mind set that we are victims of our pain.

You simply cannot see that it is not necessary to judge people and tell them they are victims in order to help them.

If they're stuck in these negative patterns, I believe it does help to point that out and help them see the problem.

You really cannot be so naïve that you think you have the magic formula to cure all depression.

There you go again: conflating depression with suffering.

I never said that I do not advocate helping people take responsibility for their own well-being and attitudes toward the vicissitudes of life.

Yes you did. You said, and I quote: "Holding them responsible is the same thing as judging them."

It is not as if I have not clearly stated my position.

I still think we're saying the same thing, talking past each other.

 

[sojourner]

Don’t pretend to know about spiritual issues, because you are not trained in the field. Neither am I.

I hold an M.Div (with honors) from a fully-accredited graduate seminary, with further training in spiritual direction, formation, counseling and healing. I'm a member of the ordained clergy, with standing in a mainstream denomination. I believe that qualifies me as not only "trained in the field," but as authoritative in that field.

 

[CG Didymus]

That's Ok, I enjoyed it, I have watched it twice. I was amazed that a man so connected with the spirit of age, still could not see beyond a physical resurrection. A lot that happened at that time was not the way he wanted it to go, the direction was steered by other self motivated individuals. Thus, if he had more people that wanted to look outside the box, who knows, he may very well have come to the conclusion that he had to look at the return in another way.

He sure knows now and God bless him with fulfilling his visions.

Regards Tony

Okay, if you watched it twice I guess I'll take a look at it.

 

[CG Didymus]

108 more Names to explore - Lord Krishna Names - 108 names of Lord Krishna and all 3000 years before Jesus the Christ.

2 Om Kamala Nathaya Namaha Consort Of Goddess Lakshmi
7 Om Lila-Manusha-Vigrahaya Namaha Assuming Human Form To Perform Pastimes
17 Om Putana Jivita Haraya Namaha The One Who Took The Life Of Demoness Putana
18 Om Shakatasura Bhanjanaya Namaha Destroyer Of Demon Shakatasur
21 Om Navanita Viliptangaya Namaha Lord Whose Body Is Smeared With Butter
22 Om Navanita Nataya Namaha The One Who Dances For Butter
33 Om Dhenukasura Mardanaya Namaha The Lord Who Beat Up The ***-Demon Dhenukasura
34 Om Trinikrita Trinavartaya Namaha Lord Who Killed Trnavarta, The Whirlwind Demon
38 Om Gopa Gopishvaraya Namaha Lord Of The Gopas And Gopis
53 Om Kama Janakaya Namaha One Generating Desires In Worldly Mind
64 Om Mayine Namaha Magician, Lord of Maya
69 Om Muraraye Namaha Enemy Of Demon Mura
70 Om Narakantakaya Namaha Destroyer Of Demon Naraka
101 Om Jalakridasamashakta Gopi Vastrapaharakaya Namaha Lord Who Hid Gopi’s Clothes While They Were Playing In River Yamuna​

And, most important...

82 Om Vishnava Namaha Lord Vishnu
98 Om Narayanaya Namaha The One Who Is Lord Vishnu​

And who is Vishnu?

Vishnu is one of the principal deities of Hinduism. The "preserver" in the Hindu triad (Trimurti), Vishnu is revered as the supreme being In Vaishnavism as identical to the metaphysical concept of Brahman (Atman, the self, or unchanging ultimate reality), and is notable for adopting various incarnations (avatars such as Rama and Krishna) to preserve and protect dharmic principles whenever the world is threatened with evil, chaos, and destructive forces.​

Krishna is one thing to Baha'is, but that isn't necessarily what some Hindus believe about Krishna. He is not sent by The God of the Abrahamic religions. For those that believe in Krishna he is an incarnation of the God, Vishnu. And Vishnu is one of the Gods in a three part Godhead that also contains lessor Gods and many demons. And Krishna destroyed many of those demons... and is only one of the many incarnations of Vishnu. These beliefs don't fit in very well with the Abrahamic religions, especially the Baha'i Faith.

Yes, and I know the Baha'is do have a way to explain the "apparent" contradictions. But I have an easier one... Krishna is based on the myths and traditions of the people of India. He might be real. He might not. He might be one of the "manifestations" of the Baha'i Faith, but I have my doubts.

 

[Trailblazer]

Our choices determine our future......if we choose the path, we choose the destination.....that is the point. We get one shot at this.

I fully agree that our choices determine our future destination, I just disagree on the correct path.

You believe you know the correct path and I believe I know the correct path, and never the twain shall meet.... unless one of us changes our beliefs, which is about as likely to happen as finding a needle in a haystack.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There you go again: conflating depression with suffering.

I have a wife that suffers Manic Depression from extreme childhood traumas. The suffering in her life as a result has been great.

She still suffers as a result of that trauma, is still depressed often, even though she has had countless hours of counselling and has a Faith that has allowed her to live to this day, without taking the step of not being here.

It was she that introduced me to the Faith I now embrace.

So it is not that simple, as you would suggest. Nature and Nurture in our childhood becomes and imprint of our future, it will always be there and influence our mind and choices.

So I see many people suffer from Depression do not want to or choose to, nor can it always have a solution in this Material world.

My wife spirit longs not to be part of this world, it has not been kind to her, but her Love for others holds her here amongst the suffering of depression. Also we have found out that chemical imbalances in the body cause by thyroid issues, also assist.

I hope that helps the discussion between you and Trailblazer.

It may be Trailblazer can identify with a person such as my wife.

I can say my view was much like yours and it did not help my wife in any way, in fact the opposite happened.

I can only say, it is not that simple to explain Depression and the Suffering as a result.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, and I know the Baha'is do have a way to explain the "apparent" contradictions. But I have an easier one... Krishna is based on the myths and traditions of the people of India. He might be real. He might not. He might be one of the "manifestations" of the Baha'i Faith, but I have my doubts.

The great thing is CG, that is a choice we all get, I am not here to change your choices, just to offer alternative thoughts.

A study of the writings of my Faith shows me Krishna was a Messenger from God. The faith I have embraced contains different frames of references that allows me to look at those scriptures and see past what men have made of them. We are talking of 3000 plus years that man has had their own input into those scriptures, the Bible 2000 years and the Koran 1400 years. Given true faith requires detachment to this material world and attachment changes the intent of scriptures, I leave it to you to determine how much of the spiritual intent of the Messengers past has been influenced by this world.

The frames of reference given by Baha'u'llah allows me to embrace all of the God given Messengers and see how each of them have pointed us towards the One Source of them all, God, and as such embrace a Unity in Diversity with people from all Faiths.

There will be no peace, until the Mind of man accepts our common foundation, we have been shown how we are one people on one planet by Baha'u'llah, Science looks for that link, knowing it must exist, yet divided we still choose to fall.

The convulsions of a decaying old world order are daily increasing CG. Shoghi Effendi gave a clear vision of what the lack of response to the Message of Baha'u'llah would bring upon us, for the Baha'is and the World. I can say the Baha'i also have not responded on the scale required, we did not disperse quickly enough, nor did many find the motivation to move from centres of Materialism to the remote areas where spirit is stronger. So yes you are correct when you asked should have we done more?

Of course all IMHO

If at a time in the future you choose to see it all in a different way and then do find truth in what is offered, where does that place you CG, should you have done more!

That goes back to the Quandary thread started some time ago.

I have a funny thought about the prolteszing badge, in a way the Message of Baha'u'llah pushes a person's own Faith back on to them, it tells a Christian to be a true Christian a Muslim to be a true Muslim a Baha'i to be a true Baha'i etc and with that, we will find our Oneness.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I have a wife that suffers Manic Depression from extreme childhood traumas. The suffering in her life as a result has been great.

She still suffers as a result of that trauma, is still depressed often, even though she has had countless hours of counselling and has a Faith that has allowed her to live to this day, without taking the step of not being here.

It was she that introduced me to the Faith I now embrace.

So it is not that simple, as you would suggest. Nature and Nurture in our childhood becomes and imprint of our future, it will always be there and influence our mind and choices.

So I see many people suffer from Depression do not want to or choose to, nor can it always have a solution in this Material world.

My wife spirit longs not to be part of this world, it has not been kind to her, but her Love for others holds her here amongst the suffering of depression. Also we have found out that chemical imbalances in the body cause by thyroid issues, also assist.

I hope that helps the discussion between you and Trailblazer.

It may be Trailblazer can identify with a person such as my wife.

I can say my view was much like yours and it did not help my wife in any way, in fact the opposite happened.

I can only say, it is not that simple to explain Depression and the Suffering as a result.

Regards Tony

Thanks for jumping in. Only God knows what that means to me, and now you also know.
I sometimes feel so alone on this forum, and as I often tell my husband, I am not sure how much more I can take.

Aside from personal suffering that is the result of depression or life circumstances there is the suffering people choose to endure for a cause, whatever that cause might be. It could be a religious cause or another cause such as “black lives matter” but the same principle applies – they are sacrificing personal happiness they could have for something greater then themselves – and sometimes that entails suffering.

I could tell you what I woke up to this morning and saw on another forum but I’d rather not. Suffice to say, I cried out to God and Jesus to help me get through it, it was that painful. Yes, I suffered, but it is over now and I am happy I was able to endure it, until next time. I could have chosen to just walk away, but I am not one to walk away from difficult situations.

“The trials of man are of two kinds. (a) The consequences of his own actions. If a man eats too much, he ruins his digestion; if he takes poison he becomes ill or dies. If a person gambles he will lose his money; if he drinks too much he will lose his equilibrium. All these sufferings are caused by the man himself, it is quite clear therefore that certain sorrows are the result of our own deeds. (b) Other sufferings there are, which come upon the Faithful of God. Consider the great sorrows endured by Christ and by His apostles! .......

Those who declare a wish to suffer much for Christ’s sake must prove their sincerity; those who proclaim their longing to make great sacrifices can only prove their truth by their deeds. Job proved the fidelity of his love for God by being faithful through his great adversity, as well as during the prosperity of his life. The apostles of Christ who steadfastly bore all their trials and sufferings—did they not prove their faithfulness? Was not their endurance the best proof?

These griefs are now ended.”

Paris Talks, pp. 49-50

 

[Trailblazer]

I can say my view was much like yours and it did not help my wife in any way, in fact the opposite happened.

The reason that the opposite happens is because you are telling someone to do what they cannot do -- be happy.
You cannot imagine how horrible that feels unless you are the person who cannot be happy.
A person cannot will happiness. They can only do certain things, but that does not guarantee happiness.

Also, some people do not value personal happiness, but that is another matter, related to what I just explained in my last post.

Do you think that Baha'u'llah valued personal happiness?

 

[Trailblazer]

sounds like bad counseling to me.

You quoted that out of context. The context is whether they have a choice to be depressed or not, not whether they can make choices in general.

This is what I said: I have an MA in Counseling Psychology, and no counselor would ever tell a client they have a choice. Moreover, I have been in counseling myself for over 20 years and no psychiatrist, psychologist or MA level counselor ever told me I have a choice as to whether I would suffer or not. That is unethical as well as insensitive and unnecessary to help a client. I cannot even imagine a counselor telling a client they have a choice as to whether they would be depressed or not. The only job for a counselor is to help the client by listening to their problems and working with them to develop a treatment plan.

Here's your problem: you're conflating depression with suffering. Not all suffering is clinical depression.

That’s true, but so what? People suffer for all kinds of reasons.

...ostensibly by telling them that it's OK for them to be stuck?

Straw man. I never said that.

If someone says, "I had a hard upbringing and my father beat me, and that's why I can't get a decent job and be successful," then it's pretty obvious that that's what's happening with them.

I agree, but that is a particular situation. I agree that he is just making excuses.

Trailblazer said: How can you know that?

See above.

You said: I disagree. Mishaps, illnesses, losses, mistakes, injuries, and life situations are not always avoidable. But choosing to continue in a cyclical pattern of victimhood is.

I said: Who do you think you are to judge people and say they are wallowing in a cyclical pattern of victimhood? How can you know that? Are you God, do you know what is in their hearts and minds?

In particular situations such as the above it is pretty obvious, but how can you know that everyone is choosing to continue in a cyclical pattern of victimhood?

Suffering is the mind set that we are victims of our pain.

Maybe sometimes but not always. The problem is that you generalize as if everyone who suffers plays the victim role, but that is not true for everyone. Not all depressed people feel sorry for themselves. Some people are just depressed and many blame themselves. A major reason for depression is blaming oneself, not blaming others or their childhood. Those who blame others are angry at others, not depressed, and they use their anger to cover up the underlying depression. If they have to face the fact that they are guilty then they become depressed. Guilt and depression are closely intertwined.

If they're stuck in these negative patterns, I believe it does help to point that out and help them see the problem.

I do not disagree with that. I just pointed that out to my husband yesterday, but I doubt it will do any good. He acknowledged it but his behavior remains the same. Until he chooses to change that behavior he will not change it.

There you go again: conflating depression with suffering.

I never said that only depressed people suffer but people who are depressed suffer from depression.

 

[Trailblazer]

I hold an M.Div (with honors) from a fully-accredited graduate seminary, with further training in spiritual direction, formation, counseling and healing. I'm a member of the ordained clergy, with standing in a mainstream denomination. I believe that qualifies me as not only "trained in the field," but as authoritative in that field.

Maybe you can help people who are Christians with spiritual direction and counseling, but that does not qualify you to know about other people's spiritual status, how spiritual they are. Only God knows anyone's spiritual status.

 

[CG Didymus]

A study of the writings of my Faith shows me Krishna was a Messenger from God.

Hey Tony, how's the eye doing? Yes, your religion tells you who Krishna is. But that is not necessarily the same Krishna as believed by the Hindus. So is he an avatar of Vishnu? Did Krishna found a religion or is just part of a greater religion that existed prior to his coming?

It's the same old story. Baha'is are for today and the other religions are part of a progression. Their teachings are no longer relevant for what the world is facing today... making their teachings virtually obsolete. But we've been through this before.. that even though the Baha'i Faith doesn't talk too much about Hinduism, but with that little bit... Baha'is know all they need to know.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The reason that the opposite happens is because you are telling someone to do what they cannot do -- be happy.
You cannot imagine how horrible that feels unless you are the person who cannot be happy.
A person cannot will happiness. They can only do certain things, but that does not guarantee happiness.

Also, some people do not value personal happiness, but that is another matter, related to what I just explained in my last post.

Do you think that Baha'u'llah valued personal happiness?

That is what my wife offers, even her dreams cause her to suffer more and happiness is hard to find, even when God is the ultimate comfort.

I think Baha'u'llah wants us to find our true selves. Thus a way to find happiness, even in suffering, but that is a journey we will all take in a different way.

Regards Tony