The Destruction of America

[sojourner]

Interestingly it is a willing choice and to those that choose, it it becomes its own reward and is not seen as suffering.

Jesus the Christ Chose the Cross to release mankind from its own self, the Bab was executed firing squad for the same reason and Baha'u'llah offered this;

"... The Ancient Beauty hath consented to be bound with chains that mankind may be released from its bondage, and hath accepted to be made a prisoner within this most mighty Stronghold that the whole world may attain unto true liberty. He hath drained to its dregs the cup of sorrow, that all the peoples of the earth may attain unto abiding joy, and be filled with gladness. This is of the mercy of your Lord, the Compassionate, the Most Merciful. We have accepted to be abased, O believers in the Unity of God, that ye may be exalted, and have suffered manifold afflictions, that ye might prosper and flourish. He Who hath come to build anew the whole world, behold, how they that have joined partners with God have forced Him to dwell within the most desolate of cities!... "

It is an act of Love, when suffering is embraced for the good of all.

Of course many tangents of thoughts can be offered on this subject as you well know.

Regards Tony

Thank you for this.

 

[Trailblazer]

I disagree. Suffering is optional.

If suffering is optional why are so many mental heath care providers necessary?
Just say that to a depressed person....

Sometimes I hate the nonsense religion pedals, it is so devoid of any kind of compassion.
This applies to the Baha'i Faith as well as Christianity, maybe even more so.

Some people are so naive and insensitive, but they just don't get it.

It is a good thing Jesus said what He did...
Luke 23:34 “Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.”

 

[Deeje]

1844...the year of "the Great Disappointment....

The “Investigative Judgment”—A Bible-Based Doctrine? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[sojourner]

I sometimes can’t believe what I am reading in your responses....

I know! Cool, huh? When God speaks, unbelievable things happen, don't they!

So Jesus’ reference to scripture when answering the challenges brought to him by the devil are a non-argument?

No, you're assumption that I don't utilize the bible in forming theological arguments is a non-argument.

The fact that he quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures many times in his teachings means nothing to someone who considers those scriptures irrelevant enough to conveniently dismiss much of what they say....I see....

I was unaware that you consider scripture irrelevant. I know I certainly don't consider scripture irrelevant -- so long as it's correctly interpreted. Most of the drivel I see from you, OTOH...

Is that what you said? Perhaps that is what you meant.....a teacher needs to make his points clear and unambiguous.

A student needs to listen and pay attention, as well.

certainly nothing aligned with scripture, which forms the sum total of what I believe.

What you "believe" and what you know appear to be two completely different things. Perhaps you need to open your mind to new teachings?

What do you base your faith on? I am still trying to figure that out...

Scripture, Tradition (Apostles' teaching), reason, and experience. Do you base yours from the little fortune-telling cards you get off the scales at the carnival? Why would you assume any different for me? Jesus said, "blessed are the humble."

Jesus’ teachings were all about the future.

I disagree. Jesus asks us to feed the hungry, give the thirsty something to drink, clothe the naked, visit the lonely, cure the diseased, comfort the disconsolate. He asks us to feed his sheep. He asks us to spread the news that the kin-dom HAS come near. Jesus' teachings are that the kin-dom (that just bugs the crap outta you, doesn't it? Just can't stand it! but I think it's more theologically tenable than your version) is an immediate thing.

The present was seen as something to be ‘endured’ because the ruler of this world was going to make the ‘road to life’ difficult

I counter with Isaiah 55 and the Magnificat. No "'way in the future..." there. The goodness of God's world is immediate. God has done these things.

The kingdom would solve all those problems, when God’s will is “done on earth as it is in heaven”. Not a difficult concept, surely?

It's a prayer for our will to be the same as God's. We're aligning ourselves with God's will: "As above, so below."

Seeing our situation as temporary with a permanent solution coming, is exactly what Jesus taught

Jesus said "I am with you always." Not "Until..."

As a model for our own prayers (rather than mere words rattled off by rote) it details what our communication with God should contain, and the order in which they hold importance. God’s name and the coming of his Kingdom was first.

See above.

What is God’s will for Christians at this point in time?

Feed the hungry, visit the lonely, heal the sick...

“Sheep and goats” are the only people alive at the end.

Sheep and goats -- according to that story -- are the only ones alive now. What's your point?

I’ll be sure to tell that to those I encounter who are in the final stages of cancer, praying to die....not because they don’t want to live, but that they can no longer endure the suffering

What they can't endure any longer is pain. Suffering is of our own making. I've known many cancer patients who chose not to suffer.

Who is “we”?

Humanity.

Did Jesus use Genesis in his teachings?

Jesus doesn't appear in Genesis either. You seem to be unable to read the texts without bias and preconceived notion. That's a bad habit for the bible student.

The “serpent” was not identified specifically as satan

The serpent (I don't know why you put that in quotes -- it appears as a legitimate character in the story, just as "Adam" and "God" do) wasn't identified as "Satan" at all. (See above)

Just because I consider so much of what you post as absolute baseless nonsense, doesn’t mean I am not paying attention...it means that I cannot fathom the reasons why you say the outrageous things that you do

I can't help it if you're closed-minded and apparently not astute in matters of theology. And no, I don't find evidence of you paying attention. You merely rattle off more stuff that's simply not cogent.

but I guess it helps me to understand your disdain for the Bible

I'm sorry you think I disdain the bible. in fact, I do not; I hold the texts in the highest esteem. What I disdain is the irresponsible "interpretations" I read from you in your posts.

without which we would know nothing about God

Codswallop. Most people throughout history have been illiterate, and they learned about God without a bible. We come to know about God through the Apostles' teaching, through the Tradition, and through experience, possibly more than through actually reading the texts.

Oh that made-up word that somehow explains all things for you.

I don't know why that eats at you so much. If you don't like it -- don't use it. But for Pete's sake, don't stress over it!

If you made it up, how is it real to anyone else?

I didn't make it up.

Do you have some other “good news”?

Yes! I do! "Turn your life around, because God's kin-dom has come near!"

 

[sojourner]

If suffering is optional why are so many mental heath care providers necessary?

They're there for people who have gotten stuck in a cycle of suffering, and for people who need help dealing with their issues of suffering. "Suffering" and "injury/disease/pain" are completely different things. "Suffering" is allowing oneself to be eaten up and consumed by health or circumstantial issues. We can either choose suffering -- become identified by it -- or we can choose joy.

Just say that to a depressed person....

I have depression. But I don't suffer. I did at one time, though, until I learned how to commute it.

Sometimes I hate the nonsense religion pedals, it is so devoid of any kind of compassion

What's that got to do with the issue of suffering or not?

It is a good thing Jesus said what He did...
Luke 23:34 “Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.”

Again: how is this cogent?

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: If suffering is optional why are so many mental heath care providers necessary?

They're there for people who have gotten stuck in a cycle of suffering, and for people who need help dealing with their issues of suffering. "Suffering" and "injury/disease/pain" are completely different things. "Suffering" is allowing oneself to be eaten up and consumed by health or circumstantial issues. We can either choose suffering -- become identified by it -- or we can choose joy.

You mean that they are there for the poor saps who have not overcome suffering like you did?

No, people cannot choose joy. If people could choose joy there would be no depression.

Trailblazer said: Just say that to a depressed person....

I have depression. But I don't suffer. I did at one time, though, until I learned how to commute it.

You do not gave depression if you are not depressed. I have an MA in Counseling Psychology and a counseling license so I know how to form a diagnosis,

So everyone should be able to be like you, right? Everyone should be able to overcome all of life’s circumstances and perhaps also a genetic predisposition to depression just because you did?

Trailblazer said: Sometimes I hate the nonsense religion pedals, it is so devoid of any kind of compassion.

What's that got to do with the issue of suffering or not?

Because religion pedals the fantasy that if you have strong enough faith in God, you will never suffer. They also pedal the fantasy that suffering makes you stronger, but that does not always work because suffering breaks some people and they commit suicide.

The Baha’i Writings contradict that there is no such thing as suffering.

“The trials of man are of two kinds. (a) The consequences of his own actions. If a man eats too much, he ruins his digestion; if he takes poison he becomes ill or dies. If a person gambles he will lose his money; if he drinks too much he will lose his equilibrium. All these sufferings are caused by the man himself, it is quite clear therefore that certain sorrows are the result of our own deeds. (b) Other sufferings there are, which come upon the Faithful of God. Consider the great sorrows endured by Christ and by His apostles!” Paris Talks, p. 50

“In this world we are influenced by two sentiments, Joy and Pain.

Joy gives us wings! In times of joy our strength is more vital, our intellect keener, and our understanding less clouded. We seem better able to cope with the world and to find our sphere of usefulness. But when sadness visits us we become weak, our strength leaves us, our comprehension is dim and our intelligence veiled. The actualities of life seem to elude our grasp, the eyes of our spirits fail to discover the sacred mysteries, and we become even as dead beings.” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 109-112

“Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it, for no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner. If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow; such is the condition of this world. The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it; at some moments, even, he eagerly wisheth for death that he may thereby be freed from these sorrows and afflictions.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 200

Trailblazer said: It is a good thing Jesus said what He did...
Luke 23:34 “Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.”

Again: how is this cogent?

Because we have to forgive those people who are insensitive about other people’s suffering because “apparently” they know not what they do. I mean they have no idea the hurt they cause people with their arrogant platitudes and soap boxes. And some Baha’is wonder why other Baha’is are “inactive” in the Baha’i community.

 

[CG Didymus]

Explain why this starting point? Using the 457 rebuild using the 70 weeks and 69 weeks prophecies proves Christs first event.

Regards Tony

Fun? I used to think I was good at math. This is giving me a headache. Here's a Christian site that has 458BC. Anyway, back to Daniel to see what else it say.

The third “decree” in Ezra is that of Artaxerxes in Ezra 7:11-28. This is a decree to actually rebuild the city. The decree comes from the seventh year of Artaxerxes (Ezra 7:8). This is somewhere around 458 BC from what we know of Artaxerxes’ reign from outside sources. This decree actually resulted in the rebuilding of Jerusalem under Nehemiah.

Some list a fourth decree based on what is recorded in Nehemiah 1. There is no actual printed decree mentioned here, but we can probably assume that Nehemiah was given some sort of orders and this could be interpreted as a decree. It is more difficult to date these events. It came in “the twentieth year,” but we are not sure exactly what it is the twentieth year of. If it is the twentieth year of Artaxerxe’s reign, then it is around 449 BC or so.

To me, the most likely thing that the prophecy of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem is a reference to is the decree in Ezra 7:11-28, although I will admit that this is somewhat debatable. It just so happens that almost exactly 490 years after this decree (the seventy sevens of Daniel 9:24), Jesus did come to Jerusalem and was killed “to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Messiah.” (Daniel 9:24). The most likely date of the execution and resurrection of Jesus is AD 30.​

 

[CG Didymus]

Such fun....because....

I see it is a great thing that the Baha'i did not have to fudge numbers to prove the Bab and Baha'u'llah. The Christains had already worked the date out and remember, Jesus said Elijah always comes first. The Bab was the Gate and many Prophecy say that Baha'u'llah (Glory of God or Glory of Lord) will come by the way of the Gate facing East, from Assyria.

The date was not wrong, how people have come to see it will unfold may very well be the issue.

IMHO of course.

Regards Tony

The Bab came in 1844 and declare at His trial that He was the promised one of all religions come to prepare the way.

DANIEL'S PROPHECIES Revised February 1996From time to time, questions are raised by the Bahá'ís about the interpretation of the Biblical prophecies contained in the following verses in Daniel 12:11-12:

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
To assist the friends in their study of this subject, the Research Department has prepared a summary of the elucidations contained in the Writings of Abdu'l-Bahá and the letters written by or on behalf of Shoghi Effendi on this theme. Three main issues are addressed: the interpretation of 1,290 days; the interpretation of 1,335 days; and the date of the commencement of the "hundred lunar years", which, as mentioned by Shoghi Effendi in "God Passes By" (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1987), page 151, will precede the consummation of the 1,335 days.
1. 1,290 Days
In "Some Answered Questions" (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1984), pages 43-44, Abdu'l-Bahá interprets the prophecy concerning the 1,290 days in the following terms:
The beginning of this lunar reckoning is from the day of the proclamation of the prophethood of Muhammad in the country of Hijaz; and that was three years after His mission, because in the beginning the prophethood of Muhammad was kept secret, and no one knew it save Khadijah and Ibn Nawfal. After three years it was announced. And Bahá'u'lláh, in the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad, caused His manifestation to be known.


Note that the Master indicates that, in this instance, time is measured by the "lunar" calendar. Since the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad took place ten years prior to the Hegira, i.e., His flight from Mecca to Medina, from which date the Muslim calendar begins, the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad was the year 1280 of the Hegira, or 1863-64 A.D.
There are references to 1,290 days in "God Passes By", on pages 110 and 151. In these passages, Shoghi Effendi confirms that the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh in Baghdad, which occurred in 1863 (1280 A.H.), represents the fulfilment of the 1,290 days.
2. 1,335 Days
Two Tablets revealed by `Abdu'l-Bahá which are published in "The Passing of `Abdu'l-Bahá" (Haifa: 1922), by Lady Blomfield and Shoghi Effendi, provide interpretations of the 1,335 days referred to by Daniel:
Now concerning the verse in Daniel, the interpretation whereof thou didst ask, namely, "Blessed is he who cometh unto the thousand three hundred and thirty five days". These days must be reckoned as solar and not lunar years. For according to this calculation a century will have elapsed from the dawn of the Sun of Truth, then will the teachings of God be firmly established upon the earth, and the Divine Light shall flood the world from the East even unto the West. Then, on this day, will the faithful rejoice! (p. 31)
O servant of God! The afore mentioned a thousand three hundred and thirty-five years must be reckoned from the day of the flight of His Holiness Muhammad, the Apostle of God, (Hegira) salutations and blessings rest upon Him, at the close of which time the signs of the rise, the glory, the exaltation, the spread of the Word of God throughout the East and the West shall appear. (p. 31)
From these Tablets it appears that:- The spread of the Faith throughout the world will signal the fulfilment of this prophecy.
- The "days must be reckoned as solar and not lunar years".

- The Tablets suggest that the prophecy is fulfilled by two different dates. The first derives from the centenary of the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh; the second is calculated from 622 A.D. -- hence, 1963 and 1957.
Shoghi Effendi associated Daniel's reference to the 1,335 days and Abdu'l-Bahá's statements about this prophecy with the centenary of the formal assumption of Bahá'u'lláh's prophetic office and the worldwide triumph of the Bahá'í Cause. He stressed that the prophecy refers to occurrences within the Bahá'í community, rather than to events in the outside world, e.g., the establishment of peace. While the Guardian clearly allied the triumph of the Faith with the successful termination of the third Teaching Plan undertaken by the believers, in his letters and those written on his behalf, three specific dates are mentioned as marking the fulfilment of Daniel's prophecy.
2.1 1960 -- A lunar reckoning

Concerning the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh in Baghdad, Shoghi Effendi, in "God Passes By", page 151, wrote:
The "hundred lunar years", destined to immediately precede that blissful consummation (1,335 days), announced by Daniel ... had commenced.
One hundred years, by a "lunar reckoning", after the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh coincides with 1960.
2.2 1963 -- A solar reckoning

When the world-embracing Spiritual Crusade was announced in October 1952, Shoghi Effendi linked the completion of this decade-long enterprise with the fulfilment of Daniel's prophecy:

LET THEM AS THEY ENTER IT VOW ONE VOICE ONE HEART ONE SOUL NEVER TURN BACK ENTIRE COURSE FATEFUL DECADE AHEAD UNTIL EACH EVERY ONE WILL HAVE CONTRIBUTED SHARE LAYING ON WORLD-WIDE SCALE AN UNASSAILABLE ADMINISTRATIVE FOUNDATION FOR BAHA'U'LLAH'S CHRIST-PROMISED KINGDOM ON EARTH SWELLING THEREBY CHORUS UNIVERSAL JUBILATION WHEREIN EARTH HEAVEN WILL JOIN AS PROPHESIED DANIEL ECHOED `ABDU'L-BAHA ON THAT DAY WILL FAITHFUL REJOICE WITH EXCEEDING GLADNESS.
("Messages to the Bahá'í World, 1950-1957" (Wilmette:
Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1971), p. 44)

Thereafter, the fulfilment of Daniel's prophecy concerning the 1,335 days is associated with the end of the Ten Year Crusade. For example, in a letter dated 9 February 1953 on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to a group of Bahá'ís, his secretary wrote:
The purpose of the Conferences1 will be the world-wide propagation of the Faith. They will lay the foundations of the service of the Bahá'ís of the world for the great Ten Year Crusade ahead -- which, God willing, will be consummated in the fulfilment of the prophecies of Daniel, and the achievement of the initial goals set by `Abdu'l-Bahá in the Tablets of the Divine Plan, whereby the world will be flooded with the Glory of the Lord.And, in a letter dated 11 May 1956 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, we find the following statement:...when we fulfil the Ten Year Crusade, we will have brought into fulfilment Daniel's great prophecy of "Blessed is he who waits and comes to the 1335 days".

 

[CG Didymus]

The Time of Messiah’s Coming Revealed

The Time of Messiah’s Coming Revealed — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."

So the 1290 days and the 1335 days starts when the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate set up? Sorry if it is already in one of your links, but to simplify things for me, in the JW calculations, when did that happen?

 

[Deeje]

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."

So the 1290 days and the 1335 days starts when the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate set up? Sorry if it is already in one of your links, but to simplify things for me, in the JW calculations, when did that happen?

"The 1,290 Days

15 The angel said to Daniel: “From the time that the constant feature [“daily sacrifice] has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.” (Daniel 12:11) Under the Mosaic Law, “the continual sacrifice” was burned on the altar at the temple in Jerusalem. Christians do not offer burnt sacrifices, but they do offer a spiritual continual sacrifice. Paul referred to this when he said: “Let us always offer to God a sacrifice of praise, that is, the fruit of lips which make public declaration to his name.” (Hebrews 13:15; compare Hosea 14:2.) This continual sacrifice was taken away in June 1918. What, then, was “the disgusting thing”—the second feature to look for? It was the League of Nations, promoted by the victorious powers at the end of World War I. It was disgusting because the leaders of Christendom put it in the place of God’s Kingdom, representing the League as man’s only hope for peace. The League was proposed in January 1919. If we count 1,290 days (three years, seven months) from that time, we arrive at September 1922.


16 What happened then? Well, the Bible Students were now refreshed, free from Babylon the Great, and ready to go on the offensive. (Revelation 18:4) At a convention held in September 1922 at Cedar Point, Ohio, U.S.A., they began fearlessly to declare God’s judgments on Christendom. (Revelation 8:7-12) The stings of the locusts really began to hurt! What was more, the second woe of Revelation began. A mass of Christian cavalry—composed initially of the anointed remnant and later swelled by the great crowd—surged through the earth. (Revelation 7:9; 9:13-19) Yes, the end of the 1,290 days brought joy to God’s people.* But more was in store.

The 1,335 Days

17 Daniel 12:12 says: “Happy is the one who is keeping in expectation and who arrives at the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days!” These 1,335 days, or three years, eight and a half months, evidently began at the end of the previous period. Counting from September 1922, this brings us to the late spring (Northern Hemisphere) of 1926. What happened during those 1,335 days?


18 Despite the landmark nature of events in 1922, evidently some still looked longingly to the past. The Studies in the Scriptures, authored by C. T. Russell, were still basic study material. Further, the widely circulated booklet Millions Now Living Will Never Die presented the view that in 1925, God’s purposes regarding the restoring of the earth to Paradise and the resurrecting of the faithful ones of old would begin to be fulfilled. The endurance of the anointed seemed to be nearly completed. Nevertheless, some associated with the Bible Students did not feel impelled to share the good news with others.

19 As the 1,335 days progressed, all of this changed. To strengthen the brothers, regular group studies of The Watch Tower were organized. Field service was stressed. Beginning in May 1923, everyone was invited to share in field service on the first Tuesday of every month, and time was set aside during the midweek congregation meeting to encourage them in this work. In August 1923, at an assembly in Los Angeles, California, U.S.A., it was shown that Jesus’ parable of the sheep and the goats would be fulfilled before the Millennial Reign. (Matthew 25:31-40) The year 1924 saw the inauguration of radio station WBBR, which was used to broadcast the good news over the airwaves. The article “Birth of the Nation” in the March 1, 1925, issue of The Watch Tower gave an adjusted understanding of Revelation chapter 12. Finally, faithful Christians could properly understand the tumultuous events of 1914-19.

20 The year 1925 came to its conclusion, but the end was not yet! Ever since the 1870’s, Bible Students had been serving with a date in mind—first 1914, then 1925. Now, they realized that they must serve for as long as Jehovah wishes. The January 1, 1926, issue of The Watch Tower carried the landmark article “Who Will Honor Jehovah?” highlighting as never before the importance of God’s name. And finally, in May 1926 at the London, England, convention, a resolution was adopted entitled “A Testimony to the Rulers of the World.” This forthrightly proclaimed the truth about God’s Kingdom and the coming destruction of Satan’s world. At the same convention, the hard-hitting book Deliverance was released, becoming the first of a series to replace Studies in the Scriptures. God’s people were now looking forward, not backward. The 1,335 days were concluded."

(excerpt from Daniel’s Prophetic Days and Our Faith — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY )

 

[sojourner]

You mean that they are there for the poor saps who have not overcome suffering like you did?

No, people cannot choose joy. If people could choose joy there would be no depression.

You do not gave depression if you are not depressed. I have an MA in Counseling Psychology and a counseling license so I know how to form a diagnosis,

So everyone should be able to be like you, right? Everyone should be able to overcome all of life’s circumstances and perhaps also a genetic predisposition to depression just because you did?

Because religion pedals the fantasy that if you have strong enough faith in God, you will never suffer. They also pedal the fantasy that suffering makes you stronger, but that does not always work because suffering breaks some people and they commit suicide.

The Baha’i Writings contradict that there is no such thing as suffering.

“The trials of man are of two kinds. (a) The consequences of his own actions. If a man eats too much, he ruins his digestion; if he takes poison he becomes ill or dies. If a person gambles he will lose his money; if he drinks too much he will lose his equilibrium. All these sufferings are caused by the man himself, it is quite clear therefore that certain sorrows are the result of our own deeds. (b) Other sufferings there are, which come upon the Faithful of God. Consider the great sorrows endured by Christ and by His apostles!” Paris Talks, p. 50

“In this world we are influenced by two sentiments, Joy and Pain.

Joy gives us wings! In times of joy our strength is more vital, our intellect keener, and our understanding less clouded. We seem better able to cope with the world and to find our sphere of usefulness. But when sadness visits us we become weak, our strength leaves us, our comprehension is dim and our intelligence veiled. The actualities of life seem to elude our grasp, the eyes of our spirits fail to discover the sacred mysteries, and we become even as dead beings.” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 109-112

“Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it, for no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner. If once this life should offer a man a sweet cup, a hundred bitter ones will follow; such is the condition of this world. The wise man, therefore, doth not attach himself to this mortal life and doth not depend upon it; at some moments, even, he eagerly wisheth for death that he may thereby be freed from these sorrows and afflictions.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 200

Because we have to forgive those people who are insensitive about other people’s suffering because “apparently” they know not what they do. I mean they have no idea the hurt they cause people with their arrogant platitudes and soap boxes. And some Baha’is wonder why other Baha’is are “inactive” in the Baha’i community.

I don't think you understand what I'm getting at. And I think you're bitter. It affects your comprehension.

 

[CG Didymus]

"The 1,290 Days

15 The angel said to Daniel: “From the time that the constant feature [“daily sacrifice] has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.” (Daniel 12:11) Under the Mosaic Law, “the continual sacrifice” was burned on the altar at the temple in Jerusalem. Christians do not offer burnt sacrifices, but they do offer a spiritual continual sacrifice. Paul referred to this when he said: “Let us always offer to God a sacrifice of praise, that is, the fruit of lips which make public declaration to his name.” (Hebrews 13:15; compare Hosea 14:2.) This continual sacrifice was taken away in June 1918. What, then, was “the disgusting thing”—the second feature to look for? It was the League of Nations, promoted by the victorious powers at the end of World War I. It was disgusting because the leaders of Christendom put it in the place of God’s Kingdom, representing the League as man’s only hope for peace. The League was proposed in January 1919. If we count 1,290 days (three years, seven months) from that time, we arrive at September 1922.


16 What happened then? Well, the Bible Students were now refreshed, free from Babylon the Great, and ready to go on the offensive. (Revelation 18:4) At a convention held in September 1922 at Cedar Point, Ohio, U.S.A., they began fearlessly to declare God’s judgments on Christendom. (Revelation 8:7-12) The stings of the locusts really began to hurt! What was more, the second woe of Revelation began. A mass of Christian cavalry—composed initially of the anointed remnant and later swelled by the great crowd—surged through the earth. (Revelation 7:9; 9:13-19) Yes, the end of the 1,290 days brought joy to God’s people.* But more was in store.

The 1,335 Days

17 Daniel 12:12 says: “Happy is the one who is keeping in expectation and who arrives at the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days!” These 1,335 days, or three years, eight and a half months, evidently began at the end of the previous period. Counting from September 1922, this brings us to the late spring (Northern Hemisphere) of 1926. What happened during those 1,335 days?


18 Despite the landmark nature of events in 1922, evidently some still looked longingly to the past. The Studies in the Scriptures, authored by C. T. Russell, were still basic study material. Further, the widely circulated booklet Millions Now Living Will Never Die presented the view that in 1925, God’s purposes regarding the restoring of the earth to Paradise and the resurrecting of the faithful ones of old would begin to be fulfilled. The endurance of the anointed seemed to be nearly completed. Nevertheless, some associated with the Bible Students did not feel impelled to share the good news with others.

19 As the 1,335 days progressed, all of this changed. To strengthen the brothers, regular group studies of The Watch Tower were organized. Field service was stressed. Beginning in May 1923, everyone was invited to share in field service on the first Tuesday of every month, and time was set aside during the midweek congregation meeting to encourage them in this work. In August 1923, at an assembly in Los Angeles, California, U.S.A., it was shown that Jesus’ parable of the sheep and the goats would be fulfilled before the Millennial Reign. (Matthew 25:31-40) The year 1924 saw the inauguration of radio station WBBR, which was used to broadcast the good news over the airwaves. The article “Birth of the Nation” in the March 1, 1925, issue of The Watch Tower gave an adjusted understanding of Revelation chapter 12. Finally, faithful Christians could properly understand the tumultuous events of 1914-19.

20 The year 1925 came to its conclusion, but the end was not yet! Ever since the 1870’s, Bible Students had been serving with a date in mind—first 1914, then 1925. Now, they realized that they must serve for as long as Jehovah wishes. The January 1, 1926, issue of The Watch Tower carried the landmark article “Who Will Honor Jehovah?” highlighting as never before the importance of God’s name. And finally, in May 1926 at the London, England, convention, a resolution was adopted entitled “A Testimony to the Rulers of the World.” This forthrightly proclaimed the truth about God’s Kingdom and the coming destruction of Satan’s world. At the same convention, the hard-hitting book Deliverance was released, becoming the first of a series to replace Studies in the Scriptures. God’s people were now looking forward, not backward. The 1,335 days were concluded."

(excerpt from Daniel’s Prophetic Days and Our Faith — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY )

Okay, I was expecting something hundreds of years ago and then to do the old change days into years or years into days then back to years. So I have your interpretation and the Baha'i interpretation and they are completely different, as expected. I'll read on.

 

[CG Didymus]

So the 1290 days and the 1335 days starts when the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate set up... when did that happen?

I found this on a Messianic Jewish site... If we add the 1290 and 1335 days or even if we make them years, what do we get?

Antiochus IV Epiphanes, a pagan king who conquered Israel in the 2nd century BC. He desecrated the Temple in Jerusalem and used his full political force to destroy the Jewishness of the Jewish people. None of this took God by surprise; in fact, it was actually prophesied by the prophet Daniel hundreds of years before. Daniel 11:31 speaks of a coming king who would set up an “abomination of desolation” in the Temple and would do blasphemous things, and most interpreters agree that this is a reference to Antiochus.

But this section of Daniel is often confusing to believers. Many of the things in chapters 11 and 12 were not accomplished during the reign of Antiochus, not least of all the tribulation and the resurrection of the dead! In addition to this, there are several other references in Daniel that refer to the “abomination of desolation” (Dan. 9:27, 12:11, cf. 8:13) without a clear picture of how they match up. How can all of this refer to Antiochus?

The Jewish authors of 1 Maccabees (in the Apocrypha—biblical writings not part of the accepted canon of Scripture) believed that Antiochus’ actions in the Temple were the “abomination of desolation” prophesied by Daniel (1 Mac. 1:54). This act of sacrilege left the Temple defiled, requiring that the Temple be purified and rededicated to God. After God enabled the Jewish people to defeat Antiochus, they purified the Temple and decided to enact a new celebration to remember the Temple’s restoration: The Feast of Dedication, as it is called in John 10:22, or Hanukkah, as it is called today.​

 

[CG Didymus]

Should be interesting yet as ahead

Hey Tony, my question is why is the start of this prophecy the Hegira or when Muhammad first declared his prophethood. How does that tie in with the "daily sacrifice" being taken away and the abomination being set up?

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Abdu'l-Bahá interprets the prophecy concerning the 1,290 days in the following terms:
The beginning of this lunar reckoning is from the day of the proclamation of the prophethood of Muhammad in the country of Hijaz;

Note that the Master indicates that, in this instance, time is measured by the "lunar" calendar. Since the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad took place ten years prior to the Hegira, i.e., His flight from Mecca to Medina, from which date the Muslim calendar begins, the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad was the year 1280 of the Hegira, or 1863-64 A.D.
There are references to 1,290 days in "God Passes By", on pages 110 and 151. In these passages, Shoghi Effendi confirms that the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh in Baghdad, which occurred in 1863 (1280 A.H.), represents the fulfilment of the 1,290 days.

 

[Trailblazer]

1844...the year of "the Great Disappointment....

It was only the Christians who were disappointed....
The Baha'is are not disappointed at all.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't think you understand what I'm getting at. And I think you're bitter. It affects your comprehension.

Bitter about what?

I fully understand what you are saying.

You said: They're there for people who have gotten stuck in a cycle of suffering, and for people who need help dealing with their issues of suffering. "Suffering" and "injury/disease/pain" are completely different things. "Suffering" is allowing oneself to be eaten up and consumed by health or circumstantial issues. We can either choose suffering -- become identified by it -- or we can choose joy.

I have depression. But I don't suffer. I did at one time, though, until I learned how to commute it.

So you are saying that just because YOU overcame depression the other people who still suffer are choosing to suffer, as if everyone can "do it" just because you did it. That is not only illogical, because all human beings are different, but it is self-centered and devoid of compassion.

“O ye beloved of the Lord! The Kingdom of God is founded upon equity and justice, and also upon mercy, compassion, and kindness to every living soul. Strive ye then with all your heart to treat compassionately all humankind—”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 158

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hey Tony, my question is why is the start of this prophecy the Hegira or when Muhammad first declared his prophethood. How does that tie in with the "daily sacrifice" being taken away and the abomination being set up?

Good morning from Australia CG. Thanks for the questions. I have just had a retina detachment eye operation. We are fortunate to have great medical science capabilities.

I see the 1260 prophecies are clearly stating the Dispensation of Muhammad and the year of abrogation with the new Message. The calander year in the Muslim Faith on the Bab's Declaration was the year AH 1260.

So as per the Book of Revelation, the Muslim Faith initiated by the two witnesses, Muhammad and Ali was given power for 1260 years. We know for sure that this was the termination year by the Muslims own Calander.

Put 23 May 1844 in 19 Century into this conversion link
Online calculator: The Muslim calendar. The Gregorian calendar conversion

The Year 1260, is also the year 1844. The Bible told us exactly when the Muslim Faith would end and the promise would be fulfilled. William Miller had got it right from a completely different frame of reference and by first proving Christs first event.

In 1844 the Edict of Toleration was signed and the restriction for the Jews to return to the Holy Land was removed, this was also seen by many Christians to be a sign of fulfilment.

Edict of Toleration (1844) - Wikipedia.

Ha ha, just went back and noticed it was not the 1260 you were discussing, whoops apparently one eye is not as good as two.

I will get back on the 1290, but I may only be able to offer what Abdul'baha offered as the rest is up to us.

Regards Tony

 

[sojourner]

So you are saying that just because YOU overcame depression the other people who still suffer are choosing to suffer, as if everyone can "do it" just because you did it. That is not only illogical, because all human beings are different, but it is self-centered and devoid of compassion.

You’re still not getting it. Think of it like this: if you became handicapped in some way, you wouldn’t ever “get better.” You’d always be handicapped. Some people wallow in that handicap, let it consume them, become that handicap, and it ruins them. Others learn to live with that reality and find joy, because they don’t let it consume them.

There will be pain, there will be grief, loss, regrets, disappointments, accidents, injuries, and illness. But suffering doesn’t have to be part of any of that.

Compassion? Compassion is helping others find the joy in the midst of sorrow.

 

[CG Didymus]

Good morning from Australia CG. Thanks for the questions. I have just had a retina detachment eye operation. We are fortunate to have great medical science capabilities.

I see the 1260 prophecies are clearly stating the Dispensation of Muhammad and the year of abrogation with the new Message. The calander year in the Muslim Faith on the Bab's Declaration was the year AH 1260.

So as per the Book of Revelation, the Muslim Faith initiated by the two witnesses, Muhammad and Ali was given power for 1260 years. We know for sure that this was the termination year by the Muslims own Calander.

Put 23 May 1844 in 19 Century into this conversion link
Online calculator: The Muslim calendar. The Gregorian calendar conversion

The Year 1260, is also the year 1844. The Bible told us exactly when the Muslim Faith would end and the promise would be fulfilled. William Miller had got it right from a completely different frame of reference and by first proving Christs first event.

In 1844 the Edict of Toleration was signed and the restriction for the Jews to return to the Holy Land was removed, this was also seen by many Christians to be a sign of fulfilment.

Edict of Toleration (1844) - Wikipedia.

Ha ha, just went back and noticed it was not the 1260 you were discussing, whoops apparently one eye is not as good as two.

I will get back on the 1290, but I may only be able to offer what Abdul'baha offered as the rest is up to us.

Regards Tony

Rest your eyes, I don't need to know today. And it's only a question of making the Hegira and/or Muhammad's declaration of prophethood the start when in the prophecy it says the stuff about the daily sacrifice and the abomination. How does that tie in.

 

[CG Didymus]

I will get back on the 1290, but I may only be able to offer what Abdul'baha offered as the rest is up to us.

Here's another one. Daniel has the 2300 morning and evening prophecy. This one questions the use of 457BC as the starting date, since in Daniel 8 it says...

“How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the LORD’s people?”
14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”​

So this Christian site says...

Daniel 8 is a prophecy primarily concerned with the persecution of the Jews and the desolation of the temple which occurred in 167-164 BC. Even biblical skeptics and atheists agree that this is what the prophecy is about. Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated the temple in 167 BC, sacrificing pigs in the sancutary and putting a statue of himself in the Holy of Holies. God told his people through Daniel that the duration of the abomination of desolation would be 2300 days and nights. If we are going to try to date the prophecy and use it to make predictions, there is no doubt at all that the beginning of the prophetic time would be 167 BC. Why would the Millerites and why would the SDA church begin the prophecy in 457 BC? There is only one conceivable reason, which is so that they can use it to arrive at 1844 BC. There is literally absolutely zero reason to begin the 2300 days in Daniel 8 from the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25). In fact, the angel actually interprets the dream, telling Daniel that the vision of the goat in Danile 8 applies to the “king of Greece.” (Daniel 8:21). This absolutely rules out applying it to a decree of Artaxerxes the Persian.

Add to this, the fact is that we can be quite sure that the 2300 days and evenings are not years for the simple reason that the interpretation of the time is fairly obvious from the historical context. The fact is that Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated the temple in November, 167 BC. The Maccabeean rebels kicked the troops of Antiochus Epiphanes out of the temple and rededicated the temple December 25, 164 BC. We know this because 1 Maccabees describes the events in detail. The date of the rededication became the date for the Jewish festival of Chanukkuh. The time between the desecration and the rededication was about 37-38 months, which is approximately 1150 days. Therefore the 2300 days and nights are 1150 days (one day and one night = one day). How do I know this? Because it fits the prophecy exactly, both in terms of what was said and what we know for a fact happened. In any case, the desecration of the temple certainly did not last for 2300 years!!! This Seventh Day Adventist interpretation makes absolutely no sense. It is only a prop to a belief held by the group since its founding.​