The Destruction of America

[CG Didymus]

The best collection of these to date I have found is at this link - Click on one of the following to

There is a mountain load of stuff to go through on that site.

Have a look at the Metaphor in these;

Interpretation of Ancient Navajo Chants - "The fact that the new Light is said to come like the dawn warns us that, even as the early sunlight rises up through the mists of morning and slowly drives away the dark shadows of the canyons, so the coming of the New Teaching will not be widely visible at first, but will reach in the beginnings only those whose whose spiritual eyes and ears are open."

Native American Prophecies Fulfilled "....At the beginning of this cycle of time, long ago, the Great Spirit came down and He made an appearance and He gathered the peoples of this earth together and He said to the human beings, "I'm going to send you to four directions and over time I'm going to change you to four colors, but I'm going to give you some teachings and you will call these the Original Teachings and when you come back together with each other you will share these so that you can live and have peace on earth, and a great civilization will come about." And he said "During the cycle of time I'm going to give each of you two stone tablets. When I give you those stone tablets, don't cast those upon the ground. If any of the brothers and sisters of the four directions and the four colors cast their tablets on the ground, not only, will human beings have a hard time, but almost the earth itself will die......"

Up to you if you want to look CG, there is an amazing amount of Prophecy compiled at that site.

Regards Tony

It's a Baha'i site. It says the Kaliyuga ended in 1844? And if I asked Deeje about prophecies about the return of Christ, do you think they'd match what the Baha'i site says? Everyone has ways to make things says what they need them to say. But maybe it would be a good idea to ask Deeje.

 

[CG Didymus]

If you believe that the Bible is the word of God (or one of them) then if God's law through Moses demanded the death penalty for some capital offenses, does that mean that God is not as loving and kind as you think he should be? What does "just" mean in that context? The God of the Bible laid out his rules from the beginning...break them and the stated consequences will apply.



Every human was not "punished", but inherited sin from our first father. (Romans 5:12) Sin in the Bible is likened to a debt that is incurred where, if the debtor could not pay, he could send either himself or his children to work for the one to whom the debt was owed, until it was paid off. If the man was a husband and father, then his family depended on him as provider, and so a child would be offered to serve until one of three things happened...

1) The debt was cancelled out of compassion on the part of the one to whom the debt was owed.

2) A benefactor (usually a close relative or friend) would pay out the debt.

3) The debtor was able to see the debt paid by his own labor or that of his son or daughter.

Jesus gave a parable that drove home the point that the debt we owe to God for our sins could not be paid in many thousands of our lifetimes because the amount was more than any human could raise. The parable in Matthew 18:21-35 shows us the value of Christ's sacrifice that God used to repay our debt to him. Our benevolent God cancelled the debt with Christ's life being offered willingly on our behalf.



Your prophet and his writings have nothing to do with the God of the Bible. The roots of your beliefs are in Islam, not Judaism or Christianity. Baha'i seems to have adopted all gods and messengers and squeezed them into one faith....that is way outside anything that is taught in the Bible...this is why I find it odd that Baha'i's can quote scripture when it agrees with what they want to believe, but ignore the scripture that argues against it.

Worship of the true God was never a "one size fits all" arrangement.....God's laws were very specific....if you wanted to worship the true God then you had to abide by his laws and live according to his requirements for worship. That rules out any other gods or messengers apart from the ones recorded in the Bible. Nowhere are we told to expect any other prophets after Jesus......who was to return and establish his kingdom on earth, ridding the world of sin and all who practice it. Where is that prophesy fulfilled in Baha'u'llah?



There was only one who was the 'image of God' after the falling away that occurred in Eden. Humans no longer reflected that image because of the effects of sin. They lost their perfection. Jesus was born sinless because his birth was not brought about by human means. Being the sinless son of God, rather than a sinful son of Adam, Jesus could pay the debt with a "life for a life"...the perfect sinless life that was lost for Adam's children was paid for with the sinless perfect life Christ offered.

Leviticus 24:19-20....
"If a man injures his fellow man, then what he has done should be done to him. 20 Fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, the same sort of injury he inflicted should be inflicted on him."
God's law demanded equivalency. Adam paid for his own sin with his own life.....Jesus came to offer his life on behalf of Adam's children and free them from the servitude we now have to sin and death. (Matthew 20:28) A ransom is a price demanded for the release of a captive. Jesus' life was the payment.



And where will I find in my scripture that Christians must be in the service of all humanity? If you are going to quote Jesus, then you had better quote all that he said, not just the parts that are chosen to support your own beliefs. A Christian must of necessity be a preacher of the Kingdom...in order to do that, we first have to know what the kingdom is, and how he is its King and what the rulership he brings to this earth is going to mean for redeemed mankind. (Revelation 21:1-4)

Being "born again" means being transformed in body and spirit to attain a position in God's heavenly Kingdom. It is reserved for those who experience the "first resurrection" (Revelation 20:6) It is a new birth to a whole new life for 'the chosen ones' who will be our kings and priests. But being "born again" is not required for those who will enjoy the Kingdom's rulership on earth.

I would have no issue at all with Baha'i if it weren't for the fact that they twist our scripture to suit their own beliefs. Stick to the words of your prophet and people would have so much more respect for you....at least you would have made a decision about who to worship instead of trying to be all things to everyone....God never did that. His worship was specific and his laws not negotiable.....


That does not fit the Bible's narrative at all.....the devil was there in the garden under assignment from God, but he abused his free will and hijacked the human race for his own selfish ends. Humans were not created sinful but abused a gift that was given them so that they could make decisions about things that took place on earth in his absence.They were his assigned caretakers and zookeepers. This is why they were created with his attributes and qualities.

Satan is spoken about in Job 1 & 2 as having free access to heaven in among the angels, and Job being afflicted by satan to the point where he lost all his worldly possessions and all 10 of his children in one terrible even after another...and as if that was not bad enough, he was then afflicted with a painful disease to the point of death.....how was that Job's choice?

Satan is also said to suffer a final blow after God is finished with him.....he and his hordes will be thrown into the "lake of fire" never to be seen again. Does that mean that we then lose our choices?

All through scripture satan the devil is spoken of as a real entity capable of very clever deception. As part of the sign of the end times, Jesus said that 'false Christ's and false prophets' would mislead many in these days.....(Matthew 24:24-25; Colossians 2:6-8) We need to choose our beliefs wisely.

I think I asked you this before... the prophecy from Daniel that William Miller used to eventually predict that Christ would return in 1844... As I recall JW's had a few predictions of their own. What prophecies were they based on and what dates were thought to be the date of the Return of Christ?

Also, I keep asking Baha'is and saying that it doesn't seem like Christ returns (As Baha'u'llah), dies, and bad things continue to happen. What do JW's say about what will be happening in the time leading up to the Return of Christ. Then, what gets established after he returns?

 

[Deeje]

Who says I'm denying it? You didn't actually read the post, did you. I said that pain is the price we pay for admission to life. That's not denial.

If that is not what you meant then speak your piece more clearly....but more importantly use the Bible if you are going to claim to be any sort of Christian....Jesus set that pattern. (Luke 4:1-13)

Pain comes with life with no choice on our part. Jesus as a child was raised in a materially poor household, but it was spiritually rich. God chose his family. But so many people today are also born into circumstances beyond their control.
Giving them a hope for the future ameliorates their suffering, but it doesn't make it go away. The value of prayer is knowing that the power to endure trials can be supplied by God if we put our trust in him.(2 Corinthians 4:7)

But life happens and with it comes tragedy and suffering.....can we blame the devil? Who else is responsible for the death of the entire human race and the sinful state of our body, mind and spirit? Without his intervention in Eden, none of us would ever have had to suffer. By his choice Adam too is equally responsible....each could have remained loyal to their Creator, but for selfish reasons chose not to.

Yes, there are those things. But they aren't our natural state. That's not how it's meant to be for us. We can come into a more healed state by choosing how we react to the pain -- by seeing that it is, for us, an illusory state -- rather than letting it take us over and defining who we are. We "fix it" by calling it out for what it is and dealing with it in very positive ways, rather than by blaming everything on the devil.

Not sure what you mean by this.....but pain is no illusion. It is very real and these things...illness, suffering, pain and death are not part of our natural programming because they were never supposed to happen. We have no 'natural' response to them because they are foreign elements in our existence. We can't "fix" any of it...only God can "fix" it by means of his Kingdom....a very real functioning government that will replace the rabble ruling the world at present under satan's influence. (1 John 5:19)

Revelation 21:1-4...
"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.” (NASB)

This is what Jesus taught us to pray for.....

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It's a Baha'i site. It says the Kaliyuga ended in 1844? And if I asked Deeje about prophecies about the return of Christ, do you think they'd match what the Baha'i site says? Everyone has ways to make things says what they need them to say. But maybe it would be a good idea to ask Deeje.

Ask who you wish to CG.

I know the JW used to use 1844, they do not now though.

As always offered, it is your choices that determines your path.

Regards Tony

 

[Deeje]

I think I asked you this before... the prophecy from Daniel that William Miller used to eventually predict that Christ would return in 1844... As I recall JW's had a few predictions of their own. What prophecies were they based on and what dates were thought to be the date of the Return of Christ?

The prophesy in Daniel was used by the Jews to establish when Messiah was due to appear. This is why Jesus was so widely accepted initially.

"Jesus showed in his prophecy pointing to the conclusion of the system of things, Jerusalem would be “trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations” were fulfilled. (Luke 21:24) “Jerusalem” represented the Kingdom of God because its kings were said to sit on “the throne of the kingship of Jehovah.” (1 Chron. 28:4, 5; Matt. 5:34, 35) So, the Gentile governments, represented by wild beasts, would ‘trample’ on the right of God’s Kingdom to direct human affairs and would themselves hold sway under Satan’s control.—Compare Luke 4:5, 6.

For how long would such governments be permitted to exercise this control before Jehovah gave the Kingdom to Jesus Christ? Daniel 4:16 says “seven times” (“seven years,” AT and Mo, also JB footnote on verse 13). The Bible shows that in calculating prophetic time, a day is counted as a year. (Ezek. 4:6; Num. 14:34) How many “days,” then, are involved? Revelation 11:2, 3 clearly states that 42 months (3 1/2 years) in that prophecy are counted as 1,260 days. Seven years would be twice that, or 2,520 days. Applying the “day for a year” rule would result in 2,520 years.

When did the counting of the “seven times” begin?

CALCULATING THE “SEVEN TIMES”

“Seven times” = 7 X 360 = 2,520 years

A Biblical “time,” or year = 12 X 30 days = 360. (Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14)

In the fulfillment of the “seven times” each day equals one year. (Ezek. 4:6; Num. 14:34)

Early October, 607 B.C.E., to December 31, 607 B.C.E.= 1/4 year

January 1, 606 B.C.E., to December 31, 1 B.C.E. = 606 years

January 1, 1 C.E., to December 31, 1913 = 1,913 years

January 1, 1914, to early October, 1914 = 3/4 year

Total: 2,520 years

What happened at that time? Jehovah entrusted rulership over mankind to his own Son, Jesus Christ, glorified in the heavens.—Dan. 7:13, 14.

Then why is there still so much wickedness on earth? After Christ was enthroned, Satan and his demons were hurled out of heaven and down to the earth. (Rev. 12:7-12) Christ as King did not immediately proceed to destroy all who refused to acknowledge Jehovah’s sovereignty and himself as the Messiah. Instead, as he had foretold, a global preaching work was to be done. (Matt. 24:14) As King he would direct a dividing of peoples of all nations, those proving to be righteous being granted the prospect of everlasting life, and the wicked being consigned to everlasting cutting-off in death. (Matt. 25:31-46) In the meantime, the very difficult conditions foretold for “the last days” would prevail. As shown under the heading “Last Days,” those events have been clearly in evidence since 1914. Before the last members of the generation that was alive in 1914 will have passed off the scene, all the things foretold will occur, including the “great tribulation” in which the present wicked world will end.—Matt. 24:21, 22, 34."

Dates — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Also, I keep asking Baha'is and saying that it doesn't seem like Christ returns (As Baha'u'llah), dies, and bad things continue to happen. What do JW's say about what will be happening in the time leading up to the Return of Christ. Then, what gets established after he returns?

We see Christ's return as something that required a "sign".....meaning that it was by the fulfillment of these events in one period of time that we would know that Jesus was ruling as King, and directing his disciples on earth through a "faithful slave" whom he appointed to "feed" his fellow slaves their "food at the proper time". (Matthew 24:3-14; Matthew 24:45) Daniel had also foretold a "cleansing, whitening and refining" of God's worshippers in this period. (Daniel 12:4; 9-10)

We see the First World War as the beginning of the time of the end.....but the prophesy gives us no way to predict when the end would come. (Matthew 24:36-39) The things happening on the earth since 1914 have continued to take place throughout this entire period and today, love for neighbor has all but disappeared. "Increase in lawlessness" is running rampant. We see God's laws thrown away in favor of pandering to human desires.

We see the things predicted in Revelation as gearing up now for the final ruling power over mankind....a totalitarian 'one world government' that will have one set of laws for all and enforcement like we have not seen before, but are getting glimpses of now.

Democracy is in its death throes because it too has failed to deliver what humans need and hope for....true peace and security on this earth. It is with this lure that the powers behind this one world government will promise to bring that peace and security, that will see them walk right into a trap when the cage door closes behind them. ( 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5)
All human freedoms will be lost for those who do not accept the mark of the beast. We await the end with great anticipation.....

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Early October, 607 B.C.E., to December 31, 607 B.C.E.= 1/4 year

January 1, 606 B.C.E., to December 31, 1 B.C.E. = 606 years

Explain why this starting point? Using the 457 rebuild using the 70 weeks and 69 weeks prophecies proves Christs first event.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We see the things predicted in Revelation as gearing up now for the final ruling power over mankind....a totalitarian 'one world government' that will have one set of laws for all and enforcement like we have not seen before, but are getting glimpses of now.

Funny how one of the things God has given us to obtain the Lesser Peace, is the very thing some Christians now warn us about.

Should be interesting yet as ahead Deeje.

RegardsTony

 

[Deeje]

Explain why this starting point? Using the 457 rebuild using the 70 weeks and 69 weeks prophecies proves Christs first event.

Regards Tony

Here are the details....

As recorded at Luke 21:24, Jesus said: “Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations [“the times of the Gentiles,” King James Version] are fulfilled.” Jerusalem had been the capital city of the Jewish nation—the seat of rulership of the line of kings from the house of King David. (Psalm 48:1, 2)

How and when, though, did God’s rulership begin to be “trampled on by the nations”? This happened in 607 B.C.E. when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians. “Jehovah’s throne” became vacant, and the line of kings who descended from David was interrupted. (2 Kings 25:1-26) Would this ‘trampling’ go on forever? No, for the prophecy of Ezekiel said regarding Jerusalem’s last king, Zedekiah: “Remove the turban, and take off the crown. . . . It will not belong to anyone until the one who has the legal right comes, and I will give it to him.” (Ezekiel 21:26, 27) “The one who has the legal right” to the Davidic crown is Christ Jesus. (Luke 1:32, 33) So the ‘trampling’ would end when Jesus became King.

Jesus showed that the Gentiles would rule for a fixed period of time. The account in Daniel chapter 4 holds the key to knowing how long that period would last. It relates a prophetic dream experienced by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. He saw a tree of enormous height that was chopped down. Its stump could not grow because it was banded with iron and copper. An angel declared: “Let seven times pass over it.”—Daniel 4:10-16.

So the chopping down of the symbolic tree represents how God’s rulership, as expressed through the kings at Jerusalem, would be interrupted. However, the vision served notice that this ‘trampling of Jerusalem’ would be temporary—a period of “seven times.”

. . . this prophecy covers a much longer period of time than 2520 literal days. On the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, which speak of “a day for a year,” the “seven times” would cover 2,520 years.

The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne. The period ended in October 1914. At that time, “the appointed times of the nations” ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God’s heavenly King.—Psalm 2:1-6; Daniel 7:13, 14.

From October 607 B.C.E. to October 1 B.C.E. is 606 years. Since there is no zero year, from October 1 B.C.E. to October 1914 C.E. is 1,914 years. By adding 606 years and 1,914 years, we get 2,520 years. (no zero year)

1914—A Significant Year in Bible Prophecy — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[Deeje]

The Time of Messiah’s Coming Revealed

The Time of Messiah’s Coming Revealed — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Time of Messiah’s Coming Revealed

The Time of Messiah’s Coming Revealed — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Thank you, it has been discussed with many JW over the years, I do see William Miller had it right, it proved the first and second event! Many other Christains of the time agreed and they were not the only Faith waiting.

Simple really. What he did not know was that the year AD1844 is also the year AH1260. Such fun

Regards Tony

 

[Deeje]

Such fun

Not sure "fun" is actually appropriate seeing as how Christ's manifestation means judgment and the death of the majority of mankind on the earth when it takes place....we were told to keep preaching right to the end of the system so as to give everyone an opportunity to hear the message and respond. (Matthew 24:14) Christ promised to be with his disciples right to the end as well....(Matthew 28:19-20)

We have been warned and we know what's coming.....the door of opportunity will close, just as it did in Noah's day...(Matthew 24:37-39) It will be interesting to say the least.....

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not sure "fun" is actually appropriate seeing as how Christ's manifestation means judgment and the death of the majority of mankind on the earth when it takes place....we were told to keep preaching right to the end of the system so as to give everyone an opportunity to hear the message and respond. (Matthew 24:14) Christ promised to be with his disciples right to the end as well....(Matthew 28:19-20)

We have been warned and we know what's coming.....the door of opportunity will close, just as it did in Noah's day...(Matthew 24:37-39) It will be interesting to say the least.....

Such fun....because....

I see it is a great thing that the Baha'i did not have to fudge numbers to prove the Bab and Baha'u'llah. The Christains had already worked the date out and remember, Jesus said Elijah always comes first. The Bab was the Gate and many Prophecy say that Baha'u'llah (Glory of God or Glory of Lord) will come by the way of the Gate facing East, from Assyria.

The date was not wrong, how people have come to see it will unfold may very well be the issue.

IMHO of course.

Regards Tony

The Bab came in 1844 and declare at His trial that He was the promised one of all religions come to prepare the way.

 

[metis]

I wonder what you think the actual problems are?

Because from where I stand, the way we are slipping is valuing "justice" and "feelings" over little things like history and culture.

Yes, there is historical racism. But you fail to understand what is more at stake here is the destruction of history.

"But it's a history of racism!"

Is it? Or is it a history of a nation that was inspired to be a "city on a hill" and "beacon of hope"?
An inspiration to other nations?

Blacks were emancipated in America. And the rest of Europe followed.

America stood against the Nazis and the Communists. And others followed.

We explored space, and so did others.

Over the years, this model has been an inspiration both from liberals and conservatives.

So what happens when we destroy our history? We become ashamed of our progress.

We knock over a statue of Columbus because Columbus may have been a racist, we do nothing to combat racism. But we do everything to send a message that we feel like America never ought to have been settled. Fine! You feel that way? Go back to wherever you came from. As for me, I happen to like my country, so maybe people more concerned about signalling virtue than actually protecting America as a positive model to how the world should behave, you are the problem.

Here's what a black woman said to people in CHAZ.

“Planned Parenthood kills us every day! Why don’t I see my brothers and my sisters outside Planned Parenthood? Where y’all at?”

They called her a "coon."

She continued, “You just want to get rid of the police. You get rid of the police and we’ll still go to the chop shop. We’ll still kill our babies. You get rid of the police and we’ll still kill one another. Why? Because we, as a black community, don’t have the fathers we need. We don’t have the fear of the lord!”

Black Woman To CHAZ Residents – “Planned Parenthood Kills Us Every Day”

Here's the real state of our country. Black on black violence. Black on black abortions.

The future of our country is not about giving little districts (which will eventually get smashed up by the US army resulting in more deaths and more unrest) to minority groups. It's changing the way we relate to people. Being a model to the rest of the world again.

It starts by not being afraid of our past, but accepting a future that could be.

I really don't have the time to comment much on the above other than to say that I do believe it's obvious that we have some really tough decisions to make and we had better take them seriously and try to work together to solve them. If not, we can all to easily continue on this downhill slope.

 

[CG Didymus]

Funny how one of the things God has given us to obtain the Lesser Peace, is the very thing some Christians now warn us about.

Should be interesting yet as ahead Deeje.

RegardsTony

I will look at the posts from you and Deeje later today, but I have a comment about this right now. Fundy Christians had a world government but it involved the anti-Christ and all those "beasts" in Revelation. The story they built up from that all culminated with several nations rising up to destroy Israel and then Jesus comes back and destroys all evil. Satan is a big part of that. Those Christians do believe that Satan is a real spirit-being. But at that point, when Jesus returns, Satan is chained up and taken out of the picture for a thousand years. Then after the thousand years Satan is let loose and destroyed forever.

But Baha'is don't have a literal Satan. And all the Beasts and the battle of Armageddon are interpreted different to make them into things that already have taken place. And that is the big difference. The Baha'i interpretation has all these things happen but evil still persists and wars and rumors of wars still continue. In the Christian interpretation the bad things stop because the "evil" one and the evil doers are done away with.

So hiding under things because things are getting so bad, and the destruction of America and any other "judgement" of God, should have happened before the return, but it didn't. Baha'is have it continue because the world rejected Baha'u'llah?

 

[sojourner]

If that is not what you meant then speak your piece more clearly

I write for a living. I wrote many papers in graduate school. If that's not what you read, then your comprehension needs a boost.

but more importantly use the Bible if you are going to claim to be any sort of Christian....Jesus set that pattern.

This is a non-argument.

Pain comes with life with no choice on our part. Jesus as a child was raised in a materially poor household, but it was spiritually rich.

Isn't that what I said? Please pay attention.

Giving them a hope for the future ameliorates their suffering, but it doesn't make it go away.

"hope for the future" isn't what makes suffering go away. What makes suffering go away is how we deal with pain.

The value of prayer is knowing that the power to endure trials can be supplied by God if we put our trust in him.

That's part of it. It's value is also through aligning us with God and God's will.

But life happens and with it comes tragedy and suffering

I disagree. Suffering is optional.

can we blame the devil? Who else is responsible for the death of the entire human race and the sinful state of our body, mind and spirit?

We are responsible. Us.

Without his intervention in Eden, none of us would ever have had to suffer.

Read through Genesis -- I mean, really read Genesis -- without bias, without preconceived notions. Do you read anywhere in Genesis -- anywhere -- about Satan? Ever? No. You don't. Satan Does. Not. Appear. In. Genesis. It's important to "use the Bible if you are going to claim to be any sort of Christian....Jesus set that pattern." Just sayin.'

but pain is no illusion. It is very real and these things...illness, suffering, pain and death are not part of our natural programming

I didn't say pain was an illusion. I said suffering is an illusion. There's a difference. Once again: it would help your arguments if you actually paid attention to what my posts say.

We can't "fix" any of it...only God can "fix" it by means of his Kingdom

I disagree. We can fix suffering. Jesus gave us the keys to the kin-dom. That means that it's up to us to use them.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So hiding under things because things are getting so bad, and the destruction of America and any other "judgement" of God, should have happened before the return, but it didn't. Baha'is have it continue because the world rejected Baha'u'llah?

This was issued to open press, by the the Baha'i of America, for all to consider.

PressReader.com - Your favorite newspapers and magazines.

“Bahá’u’lláh said: ‘So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth.’ May that light grow brighter with every passing day.”

NATIONAL SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY OF
THE BAHÁ’ÍS OF THE UNITED STATES

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"hope for the future" isn't what makes suffering go away. What makes suffering go away is how we deal with pain.

I disagree. Suffering is optional.

Interestingly it is a willing choice and to those that choose, it becomes its own reward and is not seen as suffering.

Jesus the Christ Chose the Cross to release mankind from its own self, the Bab was executed by firing squad for the same reasons and Baha'u'llah offered this;

"... The Ancient Beauty hath consented to be bound with chains that mankind may be released from its bondage, and hath accepted to be made a prisoner within this most mighty Stronghold that the whole world may attain unto true liberty. He hath drained to its dregs the cup of sorrow, that all the peoples of the earth may attain unto abiding joy, and be filled with gladness. This is of the mercy of your Lord, the Compassionate, the Most Merciful. We have accepted to be abased, O believers in the Unity of God, that ye may be exalted, and have suffered manifold afflictions, that ye might prosper and flourish. He Who hath come to build anew the whole world, behold, how they that have joined partners with God have forced Him to dwell within the most desolate of cities!... "

It is an act of Love, when suffering is embraced for the good of all.

Of course many tangents of thoughts can be offered on this subject as you well know.

Regards Tony

 

[Deeje]

I write for a living. I wrote many papers in graduate school. If that's not what you read, then your comprehension needs a boost.

Or you need to brush up on your teaching skills.....I sometimes can’t believe what I am reading in your responses....

This is a non-argument.

So Jesus’ reference to scripture when answering the challenges brought to him by the devil are a non-argument? (Luke 4:1-13) The fact that he quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures many times in his teachings means nothing to someone who considers those scriptures irrelevant enough to conveniently dismiss much of what they say....I see....

Isn't that what I said? Please pay attention.

Is that what you said? Perhaps that is what you meant.....a teacher needs to make his points clear and unambiguous. Your responses are sometimes very obscure.....certainly nothing aligned with scripture, which forms the sum total of what I believe. What do you base your faith on? I am still trying to figure that out...

"hope for the future" isn't what makes suffering go away. What makes suffering go away is how we deal with pain.

Jesus’ teachings were all about the future. The present was seen as something to be ‘endured’ because the ruler of this world was going to make the ‘road to life’ difficult......but there was an expectation that the future will not be filled with pain, suffering and death. (Matthew 24:13; Revelation 21:2-4) The kingdom would solve all those problems, when God’s will is “done on earth as it is in heaven”. Not a difficult concept, surely?

The Revelation was all about the future....we are living in it. We can all see how quickly things can fall apart.

Seeing our situation as temporary with a permanent solution coming, is exactly what Jesus taught....what do you imagine the Lord’s Prayer was all about? As a model for our own prayers (rather than mere words rattled off by rote) it details what our communication with God should contain, and the order in which they hold importance. God’s name and the coming of his Kingdom was first.

It's value is also through aligning us with God and God's will.

What is God’s will for Christians at this point in time? This is a very important component in our salvation according to Jesus. (Matthew 7:21-23) ‘Doing the will of the Father’ is something “many” believe that they are doing and come the judgment, they offer their excuses to their judge, only to find that Jesus never recognised them as his own.

“Sheep and goats” are the only people alive at the end. It’s “good news” for the “sheep” but not such good news for the “goats”......according to Jesus, there are many “goats” who imagine that they are “sheep”......even manifesting “powerful works”.....but it’s not a product of God’s spirit....it’s from a different source. What source could that be?

Suffering is optional.

I’ll be sure to tell that to those I encounter who are in the final stages of cancer, praying to die....not because they don’t want to live, but that they can no longer endure the suffering....what planet do you live on? Our definitions of ‘suffering’ are obviously not the same.

We are responsible. Us.

Who is “we”? How are “we” responsible for the world’s suffering? (1 John 5:19)
Our whole situation is about who we recognise as our god and lawgiver....whose slave are we? We only have two choices....

“Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.”
(Romans 6:16-18 ESV)
What is “the standard of teaching” spoken about here? How do we “commit” to it?

We can choose to understand “why” there is suffering and tragedy in the world, but “we” didn’t cause it.
Those failing to heed Jesus’ words have no hope for the future, and continue to perpetuate the misery, but even though Christians do have hope, we are stuck with this ugly reality for the present. God is sifting the human race right now......the sheep and goats are being separated as we speak.

Read through Genesis -- I mean, really read Genesis -- without bias, without preconceived notions. Do you read anywhere in Genesis -- anywhere -- about Satan? Ever? No. You don't. Satan Does. Not. Appear. In. Genesis. It's important to "use the Bible if you are going to claim to be any sort of Christian....Jesus set that pattern." Just sayin.'

Did Jesus use Genesis in his teachings? Did he mention the devil’s beginnings? (Matthew 19:4; John 8:44)
You take books of the Bible as if they are divorced from one another....all are part of the same book with the same author.....all part of the same story.

The “serpent” was not identified specifically as satan until the Revelation.....but that never altered who he was and what his agenda was. Judaism identified satan as “the adversary”...an opposer of God. The book of Job shows him to have issues with those who demonstrate faith, despite his attempts to sabotage what lies at the foundations of their faith. What did he take from Job to make him lose faith? Was it not suffering of every imaginable kind?

I didn't say pain was an illusion. I said suffering is an illusion. There's a difference. Once again: it would help your arguments if you actually paid attention to what my posts say.

Just because I consider so much of what you post as absolute baseless nonsense, doesn’t mean I am not paying attention...it means that I cannot fathom the reasons why you say the outrageous things that you do....but I guess it helps me to understand your disdain for the Bible, without which we would know nothing about God, the devil, Jesus Christ, the cause of our suffering and what the kingdom will do to fix it all.....you seem to have put your own spin on all of those things, but I fail to see how any of your beliefs can be passed off as “Christian”....?

I disagree. We can fix suffering. Jesus gave us the keys to the kin-dom. That means that it's up to us to use them.

Oh that made-up word that somehow explains all things for you. If you made it up, how is it real to anyone else? Changing the word alters nothing in the big picture. The kingdom will “come” and fix everything that the devil’s rulership has caused. That is the “good news of the kingdom”. Do you have some other “good news”? (Galatians 1:8)[/quote]

 

[CG Didymus]

For how long would such governments be permitted to exercise this control before Jehovah gave the Kingdom to Jesus Christ? Daniel 4:16 says “seven times” (“seven years,” AT and Mo, also JB footnote on verse 13). The Bible shows that in calculating prophetic time, a day is counted as a year. (Ezek. 4:6; Num. 14:34) How many “days,” then, are involved? Revelation 11:2, 3 clearly states that 42 months (3 1/2 years) in that prophecy are counted as 1,260 days. Seven years would be twice that, or 2,520 days. Applying the “day for a year” rule would result in 2,520 years.

There are many references that all add up to 1260 years. In each reference different things are happening. My complaint with the Baha'i interpretation is that all of them, regardless who and what is about, they use the Hegira, 621AD, as the starting point. Then, they use lunar years to get to 1844. The year The Bab declared. But The Bab is not the return of the main prophet. He is the forerunner of Baha'u'llah. As I recall they do have a prophecy that also gets them to the year that Baha'u'llah declared his mission, but the main prophecy that Baha'is use is the one that gets them to 1844. What is I844 wrong with the math and/or the starting points in these calculations?

Simple really. What he did not know was that the year AD1844 is also the year AH1260. Such fun

Anything else you want to add or correct, Tony?

 

[CG Didymus]

This was issued to open press, by the the Baha'i of America, for all to consider.

PressReader.com - Your favorite newspapers and magazines.

“Bahá’u’lláh said: ‘So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth.’ May that light grow brighter with every passing day.”

NATIONAL SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY OF
THE BAHÁ’ÍS OF THE UNITED STATES

Regards Tony

I have no doubt that whatever Baha'is say about racial inequality and economic inequality are necessary things that will have to happen. But will the rich and powerful go quietly? This country put workers through so much before they got better wages and better working conditions. The owners of big factories had guards shoot protesting workers. Still there is inequity. When will it end?

The Christian interpretation... People cant' buy or sell without the mark of the Beast. Things get worse... Jesus comes... things get fixed.
What I know of about the Baha'i interpretation... Baha'u'llah came. Some people have joined the Baha'i Faith and are putting in place a model of a system to govern the world... The LSA's, NSA's and the UHJ. Things will get so bad, like the destruction of America, that all the people and governments of the world will turn to the Baha'i Faith.

In the Baha'i interpretation, I'd imagine, that after the turmoil, that would be the "lessor" peace, what is expected to happen? How peaceful is it expected to be? How much more is going to be necessary, which means there will still be several problems to be resolved, to finally arrive at the "Most Great Peace"? And, is this Most Great Peace what the Christians believe the Book of Revelation is alluding to when it talks about the New Jerusalem descending?