The Divinity of Christ

[Muffled]

I would like to put into spot

John 10:30 I and the Father are one.

as in really one physically?
where is the other?
HS?
not one with them?

He did not say I, HS and Father are one, did he?
Move up the verses from 10:30 so we could find where they are one.

John 10:25-30 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

Jesus answered, “I told you already, but you did not believe. I do miracles in my Father’s name. These miracles show who I am. But you do not believe, because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give my sheep eternal life. They will never die, and no one can take them out of my hand. My Father is the one who gave them to me, and he is greater than all. No one can steal my sheep out of his hand. The Father and I are one.”

That is why people would sometimes (metaphorically) say

Not physically, but in purpose.

I believe they are not one physically.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit:

I believe HS is used for the word Paraclete but in truth all three are the HS.

I believe you presented no evidence to support this and certainly the highlighted words continue to support the oneness. By the way hand is not physical either but speaks of power. Obviously if they are one they have the same purpose and the same power. In fact if Jesus were a separate entity there is no way He could be the same in either case.

I believe the previous verses don't support the concept of a metaphor.

I believe He did:
John 14:20 In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

 

[Muffled]

The answer is simple.

He is Son of God and son of man symbolically. They are both designations rather than literal descriptions. He is greater than a man and less than God, like an intermediary or emissary.

Another problem is Jesus never says He is God directly, whereas He does say He is Son of God and son of man. As already mentioned, there are many scripture that indicate that Jesus can not possibly be God literally.

Its worth noting that son of man appears 2 - 3 times more than Son of God.

Son of God (Christianity) - Wikipedia

Son of man (Christianity) - Wikipedia

I believe that is not an answer but a simple imagination.

I believe there is no evidence that says they are not literal.

I believe you are in error because He is more than God but you are correct that having God within makes Him greater than any man.

I believe it is not like that at all.

I believe this is the null hypothesis. There is no reason to believe He should be direct and particularly when there were those who sought to kill Him even when He was indirect. Evidently they understood well enough.

I believe there are none only people who try to squeeze the scriptures into their own way of thinking.

 

[Muffled]

John 17:1-3 New International Version (NIV)

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

A lot of people do not believe what my Lord Jesus said.
They rather believe the teachings made in 325 A.D. Nicaea and 381 A.D. Constantinople - very near Pergamum where Satan sits on his throne.

They rather believe the Devil than Jesus Christ. And this is the reason:

John 8:41-45 New International Version (NIV)

You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

Think about that.
Accept the truth about Jesus Christ.
Free yourselves from the the devil.
Return to God.

I believe that cartoon is about as stupid as people can get. Jesus is one with the Father and therefore the only one true God.

I believe what Jesus said but you do not and the council of Nicaea evidently understood scripture much better than you do. BTW suggesting that men of God who understand scripture better than you are evil because they don't agree with you is a tactic that the devil uses ie accusing the brethren.

I believe Jesus and you do not so where does that leave you?

I believe you should take your own advice.

 

[Oeste]

John Wesley (/ˈdʒɒn ˈwɛsli/ or /ˈdʒɒn ˈwɛzli/; 28 June [O.S. 17 June] 1703 – 2 March 1791) was an Anglican cleric and theologian who, with his brother Charles and fellow cleric George Whitefield, founded Methodism.

The founder of Methodism could not explain the Triune God, nobody can. Since nobody can, it must be something else.

The founder of Sabbatarian Adventism could not explain the Triune God, nobody can. Since nobody can, it must be something else.

Obviously these were smart and intelligent men, honest enough to admit to others and themselves that no one can explain the one Triune God.

Quite simply, your notion that if you can't explain God then He must be "something else" conflicts with scripture, so I'm not sure what exegetical method you employed to arrive to at such a conclusion:

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts."
(Isaiah 55:8-9)​

IMO, God is infinitely beyond man, more so than we are above amoeba.

In fact, it would be much more simpler for you to explain your schedule C tax deductions or Roth IRA to an amoeba than for any of these men to explain God.

On the other hand, if this doesn't sit well with you and your prefer a fully explainable God, try one of the pagan ones, like Thor, Baal, or Zeus. You can also create or roll out your own.

IMO, you'll then have a God you can understand perfectly.

 

[MJFlores]

1. Did your Jesus tell you the closer you live to Pergamum the less able the Holy Spirit can guide you due to the close physical proximity and interference generated by Satan's throne?

It is no denying that Pergamum is in the Bible
It is no denying that Satan's throne is there
It is no denying that Satan lives there
Satan is the adversary of God
Satan deceives people and leads the world astray
The doctrines came near Satan's domain
When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

John 8:41-45 New International Version (NIV)

You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

2. Or did your Jesus tell you the closer you live to Pergamum the more the Spirit guides you, because the Spirit knows you'll be subject to greater interference generated by your close physical proximity to Satan's throne?

It is like cooking BBQ from

and say it's fine dining.

 

[MJFlores]

I believe that cartoon is about as stupid as people can get. Jesus is one with the Father and therefore the only one true God.

I believe what Jesus said but you do not and the council of Nicaea evidently understood scripture much better than you do. BTW suggesting that men of God who understand scripture better than you are evil because they don't agree with you is a tactic that the devil uses ie accusing the brethren.

I believe Jesus and you do not so where does that leave you?

I believe you should take your own advice.

It is in the bible - even if I use the Catholic version it would be the same:

John 17:1-3 New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

After Jesus had spoken these words, he looked up to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son so that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all people, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

These are the words of the Son of God
Why don't people believe him?
They rather trust dead people who gave doctrines developed near Satan's throne and where Satan lives!

Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord, O my soul! I will praise the Lord as long as I live; I will sing praises to my God all my life long. Do not put your trust in princes, in mortals, in whom there is no help. ... Psalm 146

 

[Oeste]

These places are a few kilometers away from where Satan has his throne.

I'm not sure what the location of Satan's throne has to do with Arians, Trinitarians, or Christianity in general.

My Jesus couldn't be wrong

Okay, but no one here ever stated your Jesus was wrong. What I need for you to do is think back and let us know exactly what it is your Jesus told you.

1. Did your Jesus tell you the closer you live to Pergamum the less able the Holy Spirit can guide you due to the close physical proximity and interference generated by Satan's throne?

2. Or did your Jesus tell you the closer you live to Pergamum the more the Spirit guides you, because the Spirit knows you'll be subject to greater interference generated by your close physical proximity to Satan's throne?
Thanks!

It is no denying that Pergamum is in the Bible
It is no denying that Satan's throne is there
It is no denying that Satan lives there
Satan is the adversary of God
Satan deceives people and leads the world astray
The doctrines came near Satan's domain
When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Thanks MJFlores, but your answer is totally unresponsive and doesn't answer my question at all.

No one her denied Pergamum is in the bible.
No one here denied Satan deceives people.
No one here denies Satan can lead people astray.
And I think no one here will deny you didn't answer my question.

When you're able to answer my question let me know. And when you find these people who denied Pergamum is in the bible or claimed Satan doesn't deceive or lead people astray, let us all know, because I'm not seeing them here.

Thanks!

 

[syo]

We have contradictory statements in the Gospels about the reality of Christ. For example:

- Jesus is God

- Jesus is the 'Son of God'

- Jesus is the 'son of man'.

What is the best way of understanding the spiritual reality of Christ?

Could these principles be applicable to other faiths?

I don't find these statements contradictory. Jesus is all the above because that's the will of the Father.

 

[jonathan180iq]

We have contradictory statements in the Gospels about the reality of Christ. For example:

- Jesus is God

- Jesus is the 'Son of God'

- Jesus is the 'son of man'.

What is the best way of understanding the spiritual reality of Christ?

Could these principles be applicable to other faiths?

There are even more descriptions in the apocrypha, which I imagine were left out of the official book because they weren't cohesive with the decided-upon idea of Christ's deity.

 

[MJFlores]

Thanks MJFlores, but your answer is totally unresponsive and doesn't answer my question at all.

No one her denied Pergamum is in the bible.
No one here denied Satan deceives people.
No one here denies Satan can lead people astray.
And I think no one here will deny you didn't answer my question.

When you're able to answer my question let me know. And when you find these people who denied Pergamum is in the bible or claimed Satan doesn't deceive or lead people astray, let us all know, because I'm not seeing them here.

Thanks!

You are welcome. Think about it.

Did not come here to be posting for the sake of posting. We are here to exchange our thoughts and find the truth.

However when the source of a doctrine is polluted, nothing good would come out of there. It is like eating your meal on the floor of a public rest room.

The doctrine came near Satan's throne and where Satan lives. Would that still be acceptable? People could extinguish the spirit as the bible says.

Do not quench the Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 5:19

I'm positive the people who introduced such unscriptural doctrines have stifled the spirit in those places near Satan sits on his throne.

That is why people cant pass John 17:1-3, John 8:40 and the rest of the verses instead they keep holding on to Satan's doctrine of the Trinity (Nicaean Creed) even when the Bible has recorded the truth. The people who passed these Nicaean Creed have died a long time ago and I don't think they will ever get to heaven because of these false teachings.

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 2 Thessalonians 2:9

 

[Oeste]

You are welcome. Think about it.

Don't just think about it MJFlores, LEARN about it. Once you learn about something you can think, but not just think but think CRITICALLY.

Did not come here to be posting for the sake of posting. We are here to exchange our thoughts and find the truth.

Absolutely MJFlores, that's why we're talking and exchanging our thoughts now. It's also why I ask you questions. If you have "the truth" then you should be able to answer questions, and answer them truthfully. Do you agree?

However when the source of a doctrine is polluted, nothing good would come out of there. It is like eating your meal on the floor of a public rest room.

The doctrine came near Satan's throne and where Satan lives.* Would that still be acceptable? People could extinguish the spirit as the bible says.

Do not quench the Spirit. 1 Thessalonians 5:19

I would say you're engaging in what is known as "jump knight" exegesis where you quote mine scripture in order to convey a thought never intended by the author.

But it occurs to me that you are COMPLETELY UNAWARE that Arius was a pupil at the school of Antioch. (Leighton Pullan, Early Christian Doctrine, Third Edition, Oxford Church Text Books (New York: Edwin S. Gorham, 1905), p.87

To bring this into proper perspective, I've indicated where Antioch is in relation to "Satan's throne."

​

Thus, based on the exegetical principles you've outlined here, not only should we not believe Jesus is God, we should also believe Jesus is Not God as well.

I'm positive the people who introduced such unscriptural doctrines have stifled the spirit in those places near Satan sits on his throne.

I'm sorry but you've completely lost me here.

Previously you claimed the Trinity was first taught at Nicea:

Where was it done?

It was in Nicaea, now in present day Turkey in 325 A.D.

It was taught in a place near Pergamum.

A check with any reputable scholastic source quickly dispels this as nonsense.

Nicea is where homoousian (Trinitarian) “one-being” Christians formally debated homoiousian (Arian/NonTrinitarian) "like substance" Christians.

In other words, Nicea was not where the Trinity or Arianism was first taught, it’s where it was first formally debated. The debate, up to that time, had been simmering through Christianity for years.

Second, the Holy Spirit is "quenched" because we have free choice. We have the ability to let the indwelling of Spirit to grow in our hearts or not. When we continuously and purposely sin we "quench" or "grieve" the Spirit.

Satan's throne has absolutely NO ability to quench the Spirit of God...Zero, Nada, Bokya, Nein, or as the Turks near Pergamum say it, Hayir.

Quite simply, if Satan's throne had the ability to quench the Spirit Jesus would not have sent disciples to ALL the inhabited earth. He would have told them to stay clear of Pergamum.

Let me ask you a question: If Satan's throne quenches the Spirit, why weren't the Ephesians or Laodocians asked to move? Weren't they closer to Pergamum than Nicea?

Earlier (see above) you mentioned:

*"...when the source of a doctrine is polluted, nothing good would come out of there. It is like eating your meal on the floor of a public rest room. The doctrine came near Satan's throne and where Satan lives." TJFlores
​

Since we know Arius was near Pergamum during his formative years as a student, and since we know that "when the source of a doctrine is polluted", can we reasonably assume that adopting Arius's policies "is like eating your meal on the floor of a public rest room" since Antioch "came near Satan's throne and where Satan lives"?

 

[MJFlores]

Don't just think about it MJFlores, LEARN about it. Once you learn about something you can think, but not just think but think CRITICALLY.



Absolutely MJFlores, that's why we're talking and exchanging our thoughts now. It's also why I ask you questions. If you have "the truth" then you should be able to answer questions, and answer them truthfully. Do you agree?




I would say you're engaging in what is known as "jump knight" exegesis where you quote mine scripture in order to convey a thought never intended by the author.

But it occurs to me that you are COMPLETELY UNAWARE that Arius was a pupil at the school of Antioch. (Leighton Pullan, Early Christian Doctrine, Third Edition, Oxford Church Text Books (New York: Edwin S. Gorham, 1905), p.87

To bring this into proper perspective, I've indicated where Antioch is in relation to "Satan's throne."

View attachment 17104
​

Thus, based on the exegetical principles you've outlined here, not only should we not believe Jesus is God, we should also believe Jesus is Not God as well.



I'm sorry but you've completely lost me here.

Previously you claimed the Trinity was first taught at Nicea:

​

A check with any reputable scholastic source quickly dispels this as nonsense.

Nicea is where homoousian (Trinitarian) “one-being” Christians formally debated homoiousian (Arian/NonTrinitarian) "like substance" Christians.

In other words, Nicea was not where the Trinity or Arianism was first taught, it’s where it was first formally debated. The debate, up to that time, had been simmering through Christianity for years.

Second, the Holy Spirit is "quenched" because we have free choice. We have the ability to let the indwelling of Spirit to grow in our hearts or not. When we continuously and purposely sin we "quench" or "grieve" the Spirit.

Satan's throne has absolutely NO ability to quench the Spirit of God...Zero, Nada, Bokya, Nein, or as the Turks near Pergamum say it, Hayir.

Quite simply, if Satan's throne had the ability to quench the Spirit Jesus would not have sent disciples to ALL the inhabited earth. He would have told them to stay clear of Pergamum.

Let me ask you a question: If Satan's throne quenches the Spirit, why weren't the Ephesians or Laodocians asked to move? Weren't they closer to Pergamum than Nicea?

Earlier (see above) you mentioned:

*"...when the source of a doctrine is polluted, nothing good would come out of there. It is like eating your meal on the floor of a public rest room. The doctrine came near Satan's throne and where Satan lives." TJFlores
​

Since we know Arius was near Pergamum during his formative years as a student, and since we know that "when the source of a doctrine is polluted", can we reasonably assume that adopting Arius's policies "is like eating your meal on the floor of a public rest room" since Antioch "came near Satan's throne and where Satan lives"?

When something is made near Satan's throne and where Satan lives - you can expect nothing good will come out from it.

How many believe that Jesus Christ is god?
Plenty, maybe more than plenty. In fact the whole world.

How many believe that Jesus Christ is a man?
Few, maybe too few. Me and the Church where I belong.

Are the doctrines manufactured, signed and delivered from those places (now present Turkey) done by the apostles? No. In fact they were false apostles long prophesied. Even Peter said these false teachers will come from the first century Church of Christ.

2 Peter 2:1-2 Common English Bible (CEB)

But false prophets also arose among the people. In the same way, false teachers will come among you. They will introduce destructive opinions and deny the master who bought them, bringing quick destruction on themselves. Many will follow them in their unrestrained immorality, and because of these false teachers the way of truth will be slandered.

That is why people who believe in the Trinity could not explain the Trinity because these are destructive opinions (doctrines).

The doctrine is from the devil. The 3 in 1 is like himself and his minions.

Mark 5:8-10 New International Version (NIV)

For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you impure spirit!”

Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”

“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.

The impure spirit
His name is Legion
But they are many
That is the devil
Very inexplicable

Very similar to the Trinity doctrine isn't it?

 

[Oeste]

When something is made near Satan's throne and where Satan lives - you can expect nothing good will come out from it.

You may have a point there MJFlores. Arianism came out of Antioch with Arius.

Thanks for letting us know.

 

[MJFlores]

You may have a point there MJFlores. Arianism came out of Antioch with Arius.

Thanks for letting us know.

I do not know about Arius and his beliefs were.
Never studied Arius. What I do get is some sketchy articles.
How Arianism Almost Won

And there were some medieval paintings where there was a scuffle between the bishops and Arius. The event was marred by a little violence initiated by the bishops in attendance.

A Short World History of Christianity, Revised Edition

Ultimately - Christ was voted as God - by vote not by scriptures. These happened in 325 A.D. - 4th century - about 225 years after the death of the last apostle. It was the beginning of the great apostasy.

 

[Oeste]

We are having two conversation regarding the same conversation on different threads.

Rather than repeat myself I'll simply reply here.

 

[MJFlores]

Jesus did not admit that he is good. His denial of being good while pointing to God as the one who is good is a proof that he different from God.

Lets analyze the biblical account:

As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good Teacher," he asked,"what must I do to inherit eternal life?

"Why do you call me good? Jesus answered. "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:17-18).

Although Jesus Christ is a good man, he did not accept that he is good but emphasize to the man who asked him that God is the only one who is good. Is this not a clear proof that Jesus is not God?

 

[rusra02]

We have contradictory statements in the Gospels about the reality of Christ. For example:

- Jesus is God

- Jesus is the 'Son of God'

- Jesus is the 'son of man'.

What is the best way of understanding the spiritual reality of Christ?

Could these principles be applicable to other faiths?

Nowhere in the gospels nor any Scripture does it say Jesus is almighty God.

 

[MJFlores]

Well Mr @adrian009 mentioned the titles of Jesus Christ in the Bible - Jesus is the Son of God and Jesus is the Son of Man but no where in the Bible could we read Jesus is God - it was a presumption and a doctrine invented by dead people in 325 A.D. in Nicaea (which is now İznik Turkey)

People have missed the preposition OF
of Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Numbers 23:19New King James Version (NKJV)

“God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

John 8:39-40 New King James Version (NKJV)

They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.

Isn't that clear?
Jesus said: I am a Man
He heard the truth from God (not himself)

So how did people missed this? And if they read this, nothing comes into mind? They still refuse to accept what they are reading and just read? The bible has an answer for that:

Ephesians 4:18 New King James Version (NKJV)

having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart;

 

[crowfeather]

We have contradictory statements in the Gospels about the reality of Christ. For example:

- Jesus is God
- Jesus is the 'Son of God'
- Jesus is the 'son of man'.
What is the best way of understanding the spiritual reality of Christ?
Could these principles be applicable to other faiths?

Jesus was a man.
Like all men, he had a father.
He searched for God, and found God, via Spiritual Enlightenment, in the desert.
He became a Son of God.
In this state, he knew all the secrets of life, and felt compelled to share them.
As you can appreciate, he might as well not have bothered.

 

[Muffled]

It is in the bible - even if I use the Catholic version it would be the same:

John 17:1-3 New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

After Jesus had spoken these words, he looked up to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son so that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all people, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

These are the words of the Son of God
Why don't people believe him?
They rather trust dead people who gave doctrines developed near Satan's throne and where Satan lives!

View attachment 17092

Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord, O my soul! I will praise the Lord as long as I live; I will sing praises to my God all my life long. Do not put your trust in princes, in mortals, in whom there is no help. ... Psalm 146

I do believe Him but I do not believe what a silly cartoon is saying.

I prefer to believe what God says.

I bet I got a lot closer to the devil than they ever did but Jesus kept me from falling for the devil's lies. I believe proximity does not determine outcome.