The Divinity of Christ

[Oeste]

There you go -

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

I hope you understood what you just disclosed -

Yes I do, thank you!

Who made the same Jesus, Lord? It was God

Absolutely!

Who made the same Jesus, Christ? It was God

Not at all. This verse doesn't mean God created Christ anymore than making Trump President means Trump was created by Americans.

I don't like my bible with the hath and the ye - old English.

We share a similar preference then.

 

[Daisies4me]

Unfortunately I can't agree.

The site immediately confuses the Trinity with Tritheism which is something no scholarly article would do.

(quote)

would you mind showing exactly where you found that statement in the article, and who was quoted as the source of the statement ?

Since the majority of the article is quotes from other sources as to what some people believe to be true, or direct quotes from the Holy Scriptures, please show where you saw such a notion put forth as a belief of the writers or publishers of the article ?

One Myth Leads to Another

 

[MJFlores]

Yes I do, thank you!



Absolutely!



Not at all. This verse doesn't mean God created Christ anymore than making Trump President means Trump was created by Americans.



We share a similar preference then.

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.” Acts 2:36 NIV

Who has made this Jesus, Lord? It was God.
Without God, Jesus won't be Lord, would he?

Who has made this Jesus, Messiah? It was God.
Without God, Jesus won't be Messiah, would he?

Let us see if we have the same preference on this verse.

 

[MJFlores]

So who, in your estimation, who is the coffee, who is the coffee maker, and which...Jesus or the Father...made the whole thing ALONE, without the need of a coffee maker if he was the brew, or with the brew if He was the coffee maker?

But I have never known baby clothes, cribs or an educational plan to create anything, much less die for us.

When God said "Let there be Light" there was light, not a plan about Jesus Christ.

Also, you keep saying "nothing was created without him" when we have scripture telling us God created everything ALONE. You really need to reconcile those two thoughts.

If I build a house but employ my brother to build it, I have not built the house alone. If I build a house but build it through my construction company, I have not built the house alone. If I have created the universe but do it through someone else, then I have not created the universe alone.

And if all I have is a plan or idea about the house or universe then I haven't built anything at all.

Isaiah 45:18 tells us God create the heavens alone, by Himself. If He used another human or God to do it then that's simply not true.

John tells us Jesus created "all things" and there is nothing made that hasn't been made by Jesus.

You really need to reconcile these two verses and I don't think making Jesus into a plan or idea quite does that.

BTW, I love the effort and commentary you've exhibited in your posts but for the reasons above can't quite reconcile them with scripture.



Again, great verses MJFlores, and they look great in isolation, but I'd really like to know how you reconcile them with John 1:3 and the Isaiah passages regarding creation.

Another point to consider: You asked and stated the following:

Do you think everything were created for man? I do not think so, everything was created for him (my Lord Jesus Christ). ​

If Jesus Christ is just a man, then everything created was for man. If Jesus Christ is "a god" (like the JW's preach) then everything was created for some other god.

IN BOTH INSTANCES the glory thus belongs to another distinct entity in direct violation of scripture (Isaiah 42:8, Isaiah 48:11).

On the other hand, since Trinitarians believe Jesus is God, the glory remains right where it belongs...with God. There is no "handing over" of His glory to a separate entity and insertion of conflict into scripture.

This is what I mean by reconciling scripture as a whole, rather than looking at various verses as separate islands.

I think its this inability to reconcile scripture that leads many Arians to the same conclusion as Adrian:

​

Or to brazenly insert words like "other" into scripture (Col 1:16) in order to suit doctrine even though "other" is completely missing from any and all Greek manuscripts.

Colossians 1:15-16 New International Version (NIV)

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

The Son is the image of the invisible God
Like Man is the image of God Genesis 1:27
The Bible does not say the Son is the image of himself
But rather the Son is the image of another
That other is the invisible God
Same is true with Man who is the image of God
What is the image of the invisible God?
No one has ever seen the invisible God 1 John 4:12
The Image of God who is unseen is holy Isaiah 6:3

For in him all things were created
For in Christ all things were created

All things have been created through him
All things have been created through Christ

All things have been created for him
All things have been created for Christ

Who created all of these things?
And Hezekiah prayed to the Lord: “Lord, the God of Israel, enthroned between the cherubim, you alone are God over all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth. 2 Kings 19:15

My stance:

God did not create the universe without a purpose

God created the universe with the idea of Christ in mind
Hence - all things have been created through him

God create the universe for Christ
Therefore - all things have been created for him

If God and Christ are the same person, then it would not have been worded that way instead of created through him it would have been created through himself

If God and Christ are the same person, then it would not have been worded that way instead of created through him it would have been created for himself

 

[Oeste]

would you mind showing exactly where you found that statement in the article, and who was quoted as the source of the statement ?

I found it immediately in the article's illustration and the source was the Watchtower article.

An illustration of Tritheism is not an illustration of the Trinity, and I don't know of any honest, scholarly article that would use such an illustration to do so.

Since the majority of the article is quotes from other sources as to what some people believe to be true, or direct quotes from the Holy Scriptures, please show where you saw such a notion put forth as a belief of the writers or publishers of the article ?

I would say if the article honestly illustrates Trinitarian belief then this honestly illustrates the Watchtower's:

 

[MJFlores]

Where was it done?

It was in Nicaea, now in present day Turkey in 325 A.D.

It was taught in a place near Pergamum

Revelation 2:12-13 New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

“And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: These are the words of him who has the sharp two-edged sword:

“I know where you are living, where Satan’s throne is. Yet you are holding fast to my name, and you did not deny your faith in me even in the days of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan lives.

 

[Desert Snake]

Colossians 1:15-16 New International Version (NIV)

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

The Son is the image of the invisible God
Like Man is the image of God Genesis 1:27
The Bible does not say the Son is the image of himself
But rather the Son is the image of another
That other is the invisible God
Same is true with Man who is the image of God
What is the image of the invisible God?
No one has ever seen the invisible God 1 John 4:12
The Image of God who is unseen is holy Isaiah 6:3

For in him all things were created
For in Christ all things were created

All things have been created through him
All things have been created through Christ

All things have been created for him
All things have been created for Christ

Who created all of these things?
And Hezekiah prayed to the Lord: “Lord, the God of Israel, enthroned between the cherubim, you alone are God over all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth. 2 Kings 19:15

View attachment 17059

My stance:

God did not create the universe without a purpose

God created the universe with the idea of Christ in mind
Hence - all things have been created through him

God create the universe for Christ
Therefore - all things have been created for him

If God and Christ are the same person, then it would not have been worded that way instead of created through him it would have been created through himself

If God and Christ are the same person, then it would not have been worded that way instead of created through him it would have been created for himself

You cant have a perfect image of the father, if the father has no, or never has an image. The verses do not infer that this exact image is somehow metaphorical, they are quite literal.
Consider as well, that if none come to the father except through Jesus, the son, then Jesus obviously existed previous to creation. These verses indicate that the man form, the Jesus manifested in Yisrael, is in spirit form, one with the father.

 

[MJFlores]

You cant have a perfect image of the father, if the father has no, or never has an image. The verses do not infer that this exact image is somehow metaphorical, they are quite literal.
Consider as well, that if none come to the father except through Jesus, the son, then Jesus obviously existed previous to creation. These verses indicate that the man form, the Jesus manifested in Yisrael, is in spirit form, one with the father.

Do you have any biblical support for that?

 

[Dawnofhope]

If the Son of God means you are less than God then Son of Man means you’re less than man. It’s still an inconsistent exegesis.

You are interpreting the words literally, whereas they convey a more profound spiritual meaning.

Son of God does not literally mean Son of God.
Son of man does not literally mean son of man.

One aspect of being a son to a father, is being of service and representative.

Jesus is both a servant of God and humanity and a representative of God and humanity.

Likewise, the “Son of Abraham” is never said to be human directly but it’s a reasonable and logical inference. Since Abraham is human the “Son of Abraham” cannot possibly be more or less than man.

The bible is written by many different authors and words are used in different ways even by the same author.

Jesus can not literally be the son of all humanity so the word as a more symbolic meaning.

Only if we follow an inconsistent exegesis, or start with the premise that Jesus cannot be God. The Son of Man is truly Man, and the Son of God is truly God.

If we keep it simple, view scripture consistently, and avoid becoming entangled in the doctrines of some of the early Christians thinks, there is no problem IMHO.

 

[Oeste]

Colossians 1:15-16 New International Version (NIV)

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

The Son is the image of the invisible God
Like Man is the image of God Genesis 1:27

Christ IS the image of God, whereas man was created IN the image of God. We no longer are in the image of the God except to the extent we are in Jesus Christ. Nothing imperfect or sinful reflects the image of God.

The Bible does not say the Son is the image of himself

Agreed. Scripture does not state Jesus is the image of Jesus or the Son is the image of the Son.

But rather the Son is the image of another

It does not say the Son is the image of another, it says the Son is the image of God.

That other is the invisible God
Same is true with Man who is the image of God
What is the image of the invisible God?
No one has ever seen the invisible God 1 John 4:12
The Image of God who is unseen is holy Isaiah 6:3

Correct. If Jesus were in his glorified state you would not be able to gaze upon him.

My stance:

God did not create the universe without a purpose

Agreed!

God created the universe with the idea of Christ in mind
Hence - all things have been created through him

I’m not following you on this. God had you, me, and all of mankind in mind before any of us were created or born. If simply having Jesus in mind means all things were created through him, then having us in mind means all things were created through us. It certainly is a novel argument but I don’t see it as scriptural.

Let’s go back to an illustration you showed before:

​

Obviously this couple has a baby in mind and obviously they’re purchasing items FOR the baby. But which of these items in this picture would you say were manufactured or created THROUGH the baby?

Later the baby is born, looks around the room and announces “I have created all things and nothing made has been made without me.” (John 1:3) “This includes my baby clothes, the house my parents live in, the car they drive and the clothes on their back.”

Is the baby correct?

If God and Christ are the same person, then it would not have been worded that way instead of created through him it would have been created through himself

Trinitarians do not believe God and Christ are the same person. That would be Modalism where God becomes one person (the Father), then another person (Jesus), and then another (The Spirit). Christ is the second person of the Triune Godhead, not all persons of the Triune God.

 

[MJFlores]

Trinitarians do not believe God and Christ are the same person. That would be Modalism where God becomes one person (the Father), then another person (Jesus), and then another (The Spirit). Christ is the second person of the Triune Godhead, not all persons of the Triune God.

John Wesley (/ˈdʒɒn ˈwɛsli/ or /ˈdʒɒn ˈwɛzli/; 28 June [O.S. 17 June] 1703 – 2 March 1791) was an Anglican cleric and theologian who, with his brother Charles and fellow cleric George Whitefield, founded Methodism.
John Wesley - Wikipedia

The founder of Methodism could not explain the Triune God, nobody can. Since nobody can, it must be something else.

Joseph Bates (July 8, 1792 – March 19, 1872) was an American seaman and revivalist minister. He was the founder and developer of Sabbatarian Adventism, a strain of religious thinking that evolved into the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Bates is also credited with convincing James White and Ellen G. White of the validity of the seventh-day Sabbath.

Joseph Bates (Adventist) - Wikipedia

The founder of Sabbatarian Adventism could not explain the Triune God, nobody can. Since nobody can, it must be something else.

What is this something else?

Mark 5:8-9 New International Version (NIV)

For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you impure spirit!”

Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”

“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.”

 

[Oeste]

Where was it done?

It was in Nicaea, now in present day Turkey in 325 A.D.

Both Arianism and the Trinity were espoused and debated at Nicea as the church came to grips with its Christology.

It was taught in a place near Pergamum

Revelation 2:12-13 New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

“And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: These are the words of him who has the sharp two-edged sword:

“I know where you are living, where Satan’s throne is. Yet you are holding fast to my name, and you did not deny your faith in me even in the days of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan lives.

The church has obviously repented, held fast and did not deny the faith, just as stated here and at Matthew 16:18. I'm not aware of any Christian churches in present day Turkey which instruct members to eat things cast to idols, commit fornication, or to otherwise test the grace of God. (Rev 2:14).

I seriously doubt he was admonishing the church in Pergamum for a debate in Nicea which was 200 miles away and wouldn't take place until 200 years into the future.

On the other hand, you appear willing to imply that one's physical proximity to Pergamum can have a deleterious affect to the spiritual health of Christians due to the closeness of "Satan's throne". Is this correct?

 

[MJFlores]

Both Arianism and the Trinity were espoused and debated at Nicea as the church came to grips with its Christology.

The church has obviously repented, held fast and did not deny the faith, just as stated here and at Matthew 16:18. I'm not aware of any Christian churches in present day Turkey which instruct members to eat things cast to idols, commit fornication, or to otherwise test the grace of God. (Rev 2:14).

I seriously doubt he was admonishing the church in Pergamum for a debate in Nicea which was 200 miles away and wouldn't take place until 200 years into the future.

On the other hand, you appear willing to imply that one's physical proximity to Pergamum can have a deleterious affect to the spiritual health of Christians due to the closeness of "Satan's throne". Is this correct?

Where is Pergamum now?
Where is Nicaea now?
Both places are in Turkey.

Not that turkey, this Turkey

95.6% are Muslims

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Matthew 24:35

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, Revelation 1:1

Revelation 2:12-13 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

“Write this to the angel of the church in Pergamum:

“Here is a message from the one who has the sharp two-edged sword.

“I know where you live. You live where Satan has his throne, but you are true to me. You did not refuse to tell about your faith in me even during the time of Antipas. Antipas was my faithful witness who was killed in your city, the city where Satan lives.

Nicaea - where another Jesus was preached as god

Constantinople - where the HS was preached completing the Trinity doctrine

These places are a few kilometers away from where Satan has his throne.

What was written is written, what my Lord Jesus said stays forever -

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Matthew 24:35

 

[Oeste]

You are interpreting the words literally, whereas they convey a more profound spiritual meaning.

Correct!

I take the words literally but I don't deny words can have a more profound spiritual meaning.

I remember an old adage towards exegesis that I was taught once:

"If the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense."

This doesn't deny there can be other, deeper, more profound meanings to scripture, but the PRIMARY and/or FOCAL meaning should be the common, plain, literal sense one.

As stated previously:

If the Son of God means you are less than God then Son of Man means you’re less than man.​

That, IMO, is a logical, consistent and predictable exegesis of scripture. If a literal interpretation of scripture makes sense, then we take it, and a literal approach to Son of God and Son of Man works fine here.

Once we determine the literal approach "makes sense" we can then seek deeper meanings of the literal scripture. If a literal approach does not make sense, then we seek deeper meaning, based on grammar, word usage and surrounding scripture, for example "the four corners of the earth" (Rev 7:1).

The problem I see with ignoring a literal order of interpretation is that it allows the interpreter to arrive at "any sense" they want. With this approach, "The bible doesn't mean what it says nor does it say what it means. It means whatever [...] says it means."

Look, we've already seen churches who believe the pre-incarnate Jesus was simply an idea in the mind of God. Others believe he was an apparition. There are others, right now on this forum, who believe all the good parts of the New Testament are about their particular church while all the bad parts are about yours. It's easy to insert doctrinal bias when we first dismiss literal in favor of allegorical, tropological, typological, or anagogical approaches to scripture.

That way, if the bible doesn't say what it should have said, it certainly says so now.

Son of God does not literally mean Son of God.
Son of man does not literally mean son of man.

And following along, we can now determine that Son of Abraham does not literally mean Son of Abraham, but I believe common usage of "Son of..." in scripture denies this.

One aspect of being a son to a father, is being of service and representative.

Jesus is both a servant of God and humanity and a representative of God and humanity.

Agreed, but I don't believe this would fully or adequately define Jesus.

 

[Oeste]

The bible is written by many different authors and words are used in different ways even by the same author.

Jesus can not literally be the son of all humanity...

Agreed, which is why Jesus is not called the Son of Men.

...so the word has a more symbolic meaning.

I think "Son of...", as used in scripture, has a primary, literal, logical and consistent meaning that doesn't require symbolic interpretation. I'm not saying "Son of..." can't have symbolic meaning, but the primary meaning is literal.

 

[Oeste]

These places are a few kilometers away from where Satan has his throne.

I'm not sure what the location of Satan's throne has to do with Arians, Trinitarians, or Christianity in general.

1. Are you saying the closer you live to Pergamum the less likely the Holy Spirit is able to guide you due to the proximity and interference generated by Satan's throne?

2. Or are you saying the closer you live to Pergamum the more likely the Holy Spirit will guide you, because the Spirit knows you'll be subject to greater interference generated by Satan's throne?

 

[MJFlores]

I'm not sure what the location of Satan's throne has to do with Arians, Trinitarians, or Christianity in general.

1. Are you saying the closer you live to Pergamum the less likely the Holy Spirit is able to guide you due to the proximity and interference generated by Satan's throne?

2. Or are you saying the closer you live to Pergamum the more likely the Holy Spirit will guide you, because the Spirit knows you'll be subject to greater interference generated by Satan's throne?

My Jesus couldn't be wrong

 

[MJFlores]

I'm not sure what the location of Satan's throne has to do with Arians, Trinitarians, or Christianity in general.

1. Are you saying the closer you live to Pergamum the less likely the Holy Spirit is able to guide you due to the proximity and interference generated by Satan's throne?

2. Or are you saying the closer you live to Pergamum the more likely the Holy Spirit will guide you, because the Spirit knows you'll be subject to greater interference generated by Satan's throne?

The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Revelation 12:9

And that teachings came from Nicaea and Constantinople - very near the devil's throne.

325 A.D. and 381 A.D. - the true faith disappeared

Before that, the Apostles taught about the real Jesus. That teaching disappeared and replaced by the teaching of Satan.

2 Thessalonians 2:5-10 New International Version (NIV)

Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

 

[MJFlores]

John 17:1-3 New International Version (NIV)

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

A lot of people do not believe what my Lord Jesus said.
They rather believe the teachings made in 325 A.D. Nicaea and 381 A.D. Constantinople - very near Pergamum where Satan sits on his throne.

They rather believe the Devil than Jesus Christ. And this is the reason:

John 8:41-45 New International Version (NIV)

You are doing the works of your own father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!

Think about that.
Accept the truth about Jesus Christ.
Free yourselves from the the devil.
Return to God.

 

[Oeste]

I'm not sure what the location of Satan's throne has to do with Arians, Trinitarians, or Christianity in general.

1. Are you saying the closer you live to Pergamum the less likely the Holy Spirit is able to guide you due to the proximity and interference generated by Satan's throne?

2. Or are you saying the closer you live to Pergamum the more likely the Holy Spirit will guide you, because the Spirit knows you'll be subject to greater interference generated by Satan's throne?

My Jesus couldn't be wrong

Okay, but no one here ever stated your Jesus was wrong. What I need for you to do is think back and let us know exactly what it is your Jesus told you.

1. Did your Jesus tell you the closer you live to Pergamum the less able the Holy Spirit can guide you due to the close physical proximity and interference generated by Satan's throne?

2. Or did your Jesus tell you the closer you live to Pergamum the more the Spirit guides you, because the Spirit knows you'll be subject to greater interference generated by your close physical proximity to Satan's throne?
​

Thanks!

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