The earth is 13,000 years old and it is soon to be renewed when Christ comes

[Prometheus]

FFH, I am a former LDS and I have to say I know EXACTLY how and why you think the way you do. I used to be just like you until people like Tiberius opened my eyes. I just have to say I hope you come to the realization, just as I did, that what you believe has no basis in scientific evidence. You can't nit-pick pseudo-science from Christian websites and expect that to convince us of your argument. You need to understand that actual scientists, the REAL experts, disagree with you. They don't disagree with you because Satan has blinded them or because they are part of "the wicked/world." They disagree with you because they have studied and searched for truth and have discovered that everything in science points to an Old Earth. I'm trying to say as inoffensively as I can, as a man who has been in your shoes, to wake up.

 

[FFH]

FFH, I am a former LDS and I have to say I know EXACTLY how and why you think the way you do. I used to be just like you until people like Tiberius opened my eyes. I just have to say I hope you come to the realization, just as I did, that what you believe has no basis in scientific evidence. You can't nit-pick pseudo-science from Christian websites and expect that to convince us of your argument. You need to understand that actual scientists, the REAL experts, disagree with you. They don't disagree with you because Satan has blinded them or because they are part of "the wicked/world." They disagree with you because they have studied and searched for truth and have discovered that everything in science points to an Old Earth. I'm trying to say as inoffensively as I can, as a man who has been in your shoes, to wake up.

You profess to have no religion, so obviously you will have a tendancy to side with innacurate evolutionary scientific conclusions..

The earth is young...

All creation testifies there is a God. There are many solid evidences pointing to the fact that the earth is young.

If you look to others to validate your personal beliefs, you will always find someone to agree with you.

My beilef that the earth is young was not aquired by reading any scientific theories or facts. Scientific facts only serve to validate what I already know to be true, the earth is young.

The Holy Ghost reveals truth to our hearts and minds and gives peace to our spirits concerning any matter...

 

[DeepShadow]

Prometheus, I think it bears repeating that FFH's views are not those of the LDS church. Several of us that have been debating him are LDS, FWIW.

 

[Katzpur]

FFH, I am a former LDS and I have to say I know EXACTLY how and why you think the way you do. I used to be just like you until people like Tiberius opened my eyes.

I'm not sure why you think that FFH's religion has anything at all to do with his beliefs on this topic. There are a good half dozen LDS posters here on RF who cringe with embarrassment every time we see another post on this subject by FFH. These posts are FFH speaking, not the LDS Church, and while he is as entitled to his opinion as anyone else here is, there is absolutely no reason to conclude that it is because he is LDS that he believes as he does. The rest of us believe very much as you do and we certainly didn't need Tiberius to enlighten us!

 

[McBell]

You profess to have no religion, so obviously you will side with the inaccurate evolutionary scientific conclusions..

Obviously?
Then please explain the 'obvious' reasons that some LDS members disagree with you?

The earth is young...

I cannot help but wonder who you are trying to convince, me or yourself?

All creation testifies there is a God. There are many solid evidences pointing to the fact that the earth is young.

Sadly you cannot see how this statement shows that you are merely ratifying your beliefs.

If you look to others to validate your personal beliefs, you will always find someone to agree with you.

It is rather difficult to disagree with this statement.
Especially in light of your so aptly demonstrating it within this thread.

My beilef that the earth is young was not aquired by reading any scientific theories or facts. Scientific facts only serve to validate what I already know, the earth is young.

One problem is that you are only accepting facts that agree with your beliefs.
Another problem is that you are accepting all manner of falsehoods and flat out lies as fact simply because they fall in line with your beliefs.

The Holy Ghost reveals truth to our hearts and minds and gives peace to our spirits concerning any matter...

But only if you let it.

 

[FFH]

There are a good half dozen LDS posters here on RF who cringe with embarrassment every time we see another post on this subject by FFH

Funny...

Don't worry, I'm not bringing any "bad light" upon the LDS church, just thinking for myself..

The LDS church does not hold a position either way on this so I could very well say that any LDS position affirming an old earth could be just as equally shameful, yet I know my position to be correct, so it doesn't bother me to post my views on this subject, in the slightest

Just a thought.

You guys will just have to suffer seeing this thread for a while...

 

[FFH]

Prometheus, I think it bears repeating that FFH's views are not those of the LDS church

Nor are yours...

 

[FFH]

I cannot help but wonder who you are trying to convince, me or yourself?

Just subliminal messaging

Seriously, neither, just bouncing my thoughts off of others to get their thoughts, which sparks me to research certain aspects of this...

Bouncing thoughts and facts off of others helps to sharpen my understanding of this subject more than if I were to study this on my own...

It also helps motivate me to study this more thoroughly than if I was left on my own to do it...

It's been good to discuss this with all of you and we all seem to be very interested in this subject...

I'll try to be as respectful of your opinions as you have been of mine...

 

[Katzpur]

The LDS church does not hold a position either way on this so I could very well say that any LDS position affirming an old earth could be just as equally shameful, yet I know my position to be correct, so it doesn't bother me to post my views in the slightest

Well, we know ours to be correct, too, so I suppose that means we're back to square one.

I'm glad, at least, to hear you admit that the Church doesn't hold a position either way on this. That much, you're right about. I wouldn't have even piped up had Prometheus not implied that you believe as you do because this is what you're taught in Church.

You guys will just have to suffer seeing this thread for a while...

Yeah, I know. We're pretty much resigned to it.

 

[Tiberius]

FFH, here's a question...

What hypothetical evidence would convince you that the world is ancient? If we are correct and the world is really billions of years old, what should we be seeing?

 

[FFH]

Dinosaur Bones—Just how old are they really?

 

[bluestone]

I used to be just like you until people like Tiberius opened my eyes.

Hehe. Tiberius helped me too.

You profess to have no religion, so obviously you will have a tendancy to side with innacurate evolutionary scientific conclusions..

Can you show where evolution has been shown to be inaccurate? All the evidence I've ever seen points to evolution.

The earth is young...

All creation testifies there is a God. There are many solid evidences pointing to the fact that the earth is young.

What about dating methods then, that show the earth is ancient?

My beilef that the earth is young was not aquired by reading any scientific theories or facts. Scientific facts only serve to validate what I already know to be true, the earth is young.

If you didn't read them, how do you know? I'd like to see some examples of science that proves a young earth.

 

[FFH]

FFH, here's a question...

What hypothetical evidence would convince you that the world is ancient? If we are correct and the world is really billions of years old, what should we be seeing?

We should see a thicker layer of topsoil, much thicker, more erosion evidences, larger sediment deposits, higher human populations, which is a big one, which points to a young earth.

Seriously people don't stop having sex/reproducing just because it's tough to find food. I don't buy that arguement because there was plenty of wild game to kill before we slaughtered them all and built our concrete jungles...

Technology is also not necessary for human population to reach astronomical proportions in thousands of years..

I've already shown the worst case scenarios of what kind of population growths we should see in a 6,000 year period, had the flood not wiped everyone out, except 8 souls..

 

[DeepShadow]

Nor are yours...

ROTFL!! You still don't get it, do you FFH? Never on this thread nor anywhere else have I argued against a young earth. What I've argued against is calling it SCIENCE. My stance on the old/young earth debate itself is neutral. How does that contradict the church's standpoint?

 

[FFH]

ROTFL!! You still don't get it, do you FFH? Never on this thread nor anywhere else have I argued against a young earth. What I've argued against is calling it SCIENCE. My stance on the old/young earth debate itself is neutral. How does that contradict the church's standpoint?

Okay so I stand corrected, just assumed your relative silence on this issue meant you basically believed in an old earth theory...

So you haven't formed an opinion either way in the slightest?

if someone pressed the issue with you, would we see a sway either way?

I could almost guarantee we would..

What scientific evidence would persuade you in either way?

 

[FFH]

Can you show where evolution has been shown to be inaccurate? All the evidence I've ever seen points to evolution.

And all the evidence I've ever seen comes up fraudulent...

Evolution Fraud

What about dating methods then, that show the earth is ancient?

Carbon and Radiometric Dating Innacuracies

If you didn't read them, how do you know? .

I said I didn't need scientific facts to convince myself that the earth was young. I already knew it was, before young earth creation evidences became well known...

This doesn't mean that I've never studied science concerning this. I'm not ignorant of scientific facts pointing to a young earth and scientific evolutionary frauds and innacuracies ..

I'd like to see some examples of science that proves a young earth

Young Earth Evidences: Rapid Formation of Fossils

 

[Prometheus]

It was never my intention to imply that he holds his beliefs because he is LDS. Having been raised in the LDS faith until the age of 18 I understand the doctrines. What I meant to get across is that my study of science and evolution while I was still a believer is what caused me to lose my faith. Unlike what FFH claims, I don't accept evolutionary claims because I'm nonreligious. I'm nonreligious because I accept evolutionary claims. Ever since I left the church, I have been completely unable to rationally reconcile religious faith with the scientific method. I simply have always been disposed to hold confidence in naturalistic explanations.

 

[Tiberius]

We should see a thicker layer of topsoil, much thicker, more erosion evidences, larger sediment deposits, higher human populations, which is a big one, which points to a young earth.

Seriously people don't stop having sex/reproducing just because it's tough to find food. I don't buy that arguement because there was plenty of wild game to kill before we slaughtered them all and built our concrete jungles...

Technology is also not necessary for human population to reach astronomical proportions in thousands of years..

I've already shown the worst case scenarios of what kind of population growths we should see in a 6,000 year period, had the flood not wiped everyone out, except 8 souls..

You're contradicting yourself. You say you want more topsoil, but then you say you want more erosion. You do realise that more erosion willREDUCE the amount of topsoil, yes?

And as for human population, hunting isn't always a reliable way to find food. And you seem to be ignoring disease. Can you say "Black Plague", FFH? I hope so.

 

[gnostic]

I said I didn't need scientific facts to convince myself that the earth was young. I already knew it was, before young earth creation evidences became well known...

I wish you would stop using young earth creation as if it is science. Because young earth science is not science at all. The young earth have only proven that they are fools, spinning numbers and calculations that can't be proven, is that they have no real experience in science. Perhaps these silly creationists can't count beyond 6000 or 13000.

And don't confusing facts with evidences. Evidences can be true or false. Even scientific evidences can be found false. Depending on if the evidence are proven or not through rigorous scientific investigations. Facts are those evidences proven true.

I believed that most geologists (minus your young earth creationists or young earth so-called science) believed that the earth is older than 13000 years. Older than million of years, and even billion of years. And I mean real geologists, not your creationist friends and not even evolutionists.

There are plenty of fossil evidences that prove the earth is older than 13000 years. That you choose to ignore the evidence, show that you're not open at all. If you wish to hide behind the young earth creationists then that is really your problem.

Your other problem is that you can't distinguish parables or similes from the bible from reality. That you would take it literally prove that reality from symbolism or fiction.

Harsh as that I may sound, but reading a number of your posts and the number of links you had provided with ridiculous claims of the young earth, have been frustrating and tedious.

"1 day equals 1000 years" is just one of your ridiculous claim that can't be taken serious even by the number Christians and LDSs who had read your posts. Seriously, you have no backing of your claim beyond a few quotes from your version of the Bible, and that of 2 Peter 3:8. Even then Peter wasn't even talking about the Genesis' creation, so it is nothing than pushing meaning into what is totally unrelated.

Did Moses or Peter claimed that the earth is 13,000 years old? No. Did either say this have to do with the creation? No.

So you really have no basis on your claim of 13,000 years, beyond what the young earth creationists had claimed, and your blind following of their propaganda.

 

[FFH]

You're contradicting yourself. You say you want more topsoil, but then you say you want more erosion. You do realise that more erosion willREDUCE the amount of topsoil, yes?

I'm specifically talking about water erosion, which would be confined to rivers and streams. If, for example, the rivers of the earth had been flowing for millions of years, we would see deeper cut valleys, where rivers would have made much deeper cuts into the earth over millions of years..

The Grand Canyon was carved in thousands of years not millions, and is so wide and deep due to the quick erosion of sandstone by the Colorado River in that area. The erosion of the Grand Canyon did not take millions of years, but only thousands. If the Colorado river had been flowing for millions of years we would see a much deeper and wider canyon than currently exists...

And as for human population, hunting isn't always a reliable way to find food. And you seem to be ignoring disease. Can you say "Black Plague", FFH? I hope so.

Disease has plagued all peoples and times. I've already factored that in and have calculated that even if we experienced 1/8 of the current population growth we see today it would only take 6,000 years to reach a population of a billion people.

Millions of years would create an astronomical amount of people on this earth...

If there were so many people that died off due to plagues, where are the millions of bones of these ancient civilizations?