The EDL

[HiddenHijabi]

To be fair, it is implicit in the teaching of Mohammed that Christianity is a fraud, isn't it ? That the claim of Jesus as being more than a mere messenger or prophet is a lie and a heresy ? That is necessarily a dismissal of the fundamental validity of christianity.

This is, as you say, a two-way process.

I am reasonably tolerant so I can see the merits and failures of both views

Islam's view is that Christianity in terms of the original message preached by Jesus in the Injil (the original Gospel of Jesus) is a valid revelation. The difference between this original revelation and the current Bible, Islam teaches, is that the Church added bid'ah or innovations to the original Gospel for their own benefit, and the current Bible is rendered corrupt because of these innovations.

However, it is a required belief for all Muslims to accept the original Injil as part of the chain of revelations, along with the Tawrah (Torah), Zahoor (Psalms) and finally Qur'an. This special status as 'People of the Book' as the Qur'an calls Christians and Jews affords adherents of both religions both religious freedom and state protection in a true Islamic state. Iran for example has significant Christian and Jewish populations, as well as synagogues and churches which operate freely. Similarly Indonesia has significant Christian and Catholic numbers, as well as churches open including the impressive Jakarta RC cathedral.

 

[mycorrhiza]

You could have made all of your points without using the word racism.

My only "racism" (since you love the word) towards immigrants is that when I have to call them I can't understand a word they're saying usually. Praise the lord for emails.

But I can assure you that Australia loves it's immigrant engineers and council supervisors. Dealing with them regularly the language barrier is problematic. I find it hilarious that you think engineers have to make pizza. Seriously, there are more non-anglos who are engineers than anglos in this country. There is absolutely no problem with that at all, we have a high demand. Like I said though, language barriers make life difficult.

I don't see why I shouldn't use the word, though, since racism is widespread in society.

A friend of mine who studies arabic met a pizza chef the other day who was engineer, so there's one example. Studies have been made here where people applied to jobs, first using common arabic names and then using Swedish names. When they used arabic names, they were told that the spot was already filled, but when they used Swedish names they got an interview. There recently was a report in one of our largest newspapers about immigrant academics. It took much longer for most to get a job than for those born here that had a degree of the same level. It's no secret that immigrants are discriminated against on the job market.

The language barrier is rarely a problem here. Most immigrants speak good or decent Swedish and the ones who don't usually know English well.

 

[Alceste]

Never been to Sainsburys near Holborn underground station then I see

Studies have found that when they live in large numbers or as a 'community' they assimilate a lot slower. U.K.: Asian Muslim Ghettos Keep Growing, Hindering Integration

I did some work in the black country on the A45 between Birmingham and Coventry as a contractor. There are certain spots where you just simply don't go.

London was to a lesser degree. Most born and bred Brits tended to live outside the inner city. Too many of us damn tourists everywhere

It's those uppity muslims moving in and taking over the city planning and permits department of every major city, right? What gives them the right to plan, design, construct and market sprawling low income neighborhoods with crappy housing and minimal job opportunities?

 

[darkendless]

It's those uppity muslims moving in and taking over the city planning and permits department of every major city, right? What gives them the right to plan, design, construct and market sprawling low income neighborhoods with crappy housing and minimal job opportunities?

You missed the point entirely.

Funnily enough its actually the established older parts of many large cities where immigrants live

They don't actually plan anything.

 

[darkendless]

I don't see why I shouldn't use the word, though, since racism is widespread in society.

A friend of mine who studies arabic met a pizza chef the other day who was engineer, so there's one example. Studies have been made here where people applied to jobs, first using common arabic names and then using Swedish names. When they used arabic names, they were told that the spot was already filled, but when they used Swedish names they got an interview. There recently was a report in one of our largest newspapers about immigrant academics. It took much longer for most to get a job than for those born here that had a degree of the same level. It's no secret that immigrants are discriminated against on the job market.

The language barrier is rarely a problem here. Most immigrants speak good or decent Swedish and the ones who don't usually know English well.

Well then us Aussies must be horribly racist as in the last few days there have been calls to mandate hiring or at least interviewing (the bill is not clear yet) Australians rather than getting in people on work visas who are cheaper.

As an engineer myself I can't imagine not having some form of gainful employment. Tell that pizza chef to come down under. Our mining sector is doing well.

In Sweden to my understanding there are better education programmes for immigrants right? We have none. A news story today was of a man who had been abducted and beaten who escaped and couldn't tell police what was wrong because he didn't speak english. For this reason alone education programmes should be mandatory.

 

[Alceste]

You missed the point entirely.

Funnily enough its actually the established older parts of many large cities where immigrants live

They don't actually plan anything.

You don't say? You mean somebody else is deciding whether or not cities will have massive, sprawling neighborhoods of low income first generation immigrants? Gosh. That makes it darn hard to blame the Muslims. Can't we at least pretend they're involved in city planning and permits?

 

[darkendless]

You don't say? You mean somebody else is deciding whether or not cities will have massive, sprawling neighborhoods of low income first generation immigrants? Gosh. That makes it darn hard to blame the Muslims. Can't we at least pretend they're involved in city planning and permits?

Yep, what a job that bloke has, deciding where to clump them all together

 

[Alceste]

Yep, what a job that bloke has, deciding where to clump them all together

Tis true. When you are planning public housing and high density low income estates in a country of snobs and racists, it probably is a crap job deciding where to put it. NIMBY syndrome. We get it here, but mostly for new needle exchanges and halfway houses.

 

[darkendless]

Tis true. When you are planning public housing and high density low income estates in a country of snobs and racists, it probably is a crap job deciding where to put it. NIMBY syndrome. We get it here, but mostly for new needle exchanges and halfway houses.

It concerns me that if I were to be against public housing in my street i'd be a racist snob.

How does that work?

I simply work too hard to lose so much property value.

 

[Alceste]

It concerns me that if I were to be against public housing in my street i'd be a racist snob.

How does that work?

I simply work too hard to lose so much property value.

You're not entitled to high property prices. Everybody is entitled to somewhere to live. It's more important to social stability that neighbourhoods are mixed, racially and economically, than it is that you, personally, don't lose any money on your house.

The snobby part is assuming poor people will depress property prices in the first place.

 

[darkendless]

You're not entitled to high property prices. Everybody is entitled to somewhere to live. It's more important to social stability that neighbourhoods are mixed, racially and economically, than it is that you, personally, don't lose any money on your house.

The snobby part is assuming poor people will depress property prices in the first place.

It isn't an assumption. My better looking half works for CBRE which is a property valuation company

I find your demands out of touch with reality.

 

[Alceste]

It isn't an assumption. My better looking half works for CBRE which is a property valuation company

I find your demands out of touch with reality.

What demands? I'm describing. Canada doesn't have the issues you're worried about, because we have economically and racially integrated neighbourhoods.

 

[darkendless]

What demands? I'm describing. Canada doesn't have the issues you're worried about, because we have economically and racially integrated neighbourhoods.

This:

You're not entitled to high property prices. Everybody is entitled to somewhere to live.

Everyone is entitled to live somewhere of course. Whilst ghetto's are a problem because our planning and planning in many cities worldwide did not account for large immigration influxes of impoverished people, I think it's a problem destined to be unsolved. You simply can't financially hammer people by spreading out people experiencing financial hardship. If your house simply became worth 50k less (and thats not an upper-bound estimate) would you not be on the steps of council ready to lynch the idiot that cost you such a large sum of money?

It is simply the nature of the housing market and is unlikely to change because of social inequality.

 

[Alceste]

This:



Everyone is entitled to live somewhere of course. Whilst ghetto's are a problem because our planning and planning in many cities worldwide did not account for large immigration influxes of impoverished people, I think it's a problem destined to be unsolved. You simply can't financially hammer people by spreading out people experiencing financial hardship. If your house simply became worth 50k less (and thats not an upper-bound estimate) would you not be on the steps of council ready to lynch the idiot that cost you such a large sum of money?

It is simply the nature of the housing market and is unlikely to change because of social inequality.

You're talking to a person who is homeless specifically because of inflated housing prices. If I had a home, no, I would not be kvetching and whinging if the value of it went up and down, since that's what house prices are supposed to do. What on earth did you expect? That's how it works.

Why should anybody care more about fluctuations in the value of your house than sheltering people who haven't got one at all? Why do you care more about that? Seems like kind of a narrow perspective, if you don't mind me saying so.

 

[apophenia]

Whilst ghetto's are a problem because our planning and planning in many cities worldwide did not account for large immigration influxes of impoverished people, I think it's a problem destined to be unsolved.

Ummm ... you are more or less demanding that it be unsolved, so I guess if folk like yourself have their way, it will remain 'unsolved'.

You simply can't financially hammer people by spreading out people experiencing financial hardship. If your house simply became worth 50k less (and thats not an upper-bound estimate) would you not be on the steps of council ready to lynch the idiot that cost you such a large sum of money?

Wow, $50K less. Much better to socially hammer people by herding thousands into ghettos with reduced services and social stigma, after all they deserve that because ... umm.. because ... errh ...because.
Sure it breeds crime and social division, but OMG ! you can't expect the genteel classes to tolerate being near the poor.

It is simply the nature of the housing market and is unlikely to change because of social inequality.

It is 'simply the nature of the housing market' because that is the unofficial institutionalisation of social inequality. And that is how you want it to stay, right ?

I think your position is now abundantly clear.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

You're not entitled to high property prices. Everybody is entitled to somewhere to live. It's more important to social stability that neighbourhoods are mixed, racially and economically, than it is that you, personally, don't lose any money on your house.

The snobby part is assuming poor people will depress property prices in the first place.

Meh, so I'm jumping in on a side I never thought I would in this debate, but anyways...

I make financial decisions with the best interests of my family in mind. That includes purchasing a house in a location which offers a good environment in which to raise my kids (let me finish...), and in a location which I believe will steadily rise in value so that the financial stability of my family increases over time. I do that in order to be a responsible father and husband (and my wife would think along the same lines).

So...how to judge a good location?

• First, I looked at schools and transport.
• I also looked at the natural-ness of the area. Ugh, I'm making up words again. I live in a very green area, by suburban standards, with plenty of history (it was originally a satellite town, not a 'burb), a pretty decent artistic/hippy community close by, a mix of housing types (I hate cookie cutter suburbs), etc.
• One of the things that counted against it a little is that it's pretty white, actually. I like my kids to be exposed to a variety of cultures.

It's not a cheap area. We started with a small place (2 beddy unit) and I was on a miniscule wage (it was just after I'd thrown in teaching). We only had the deposit because I went overseas and worked for a year.

I did well at my career. It involved another stint overseas (18 months) although my girlfiend (now wife) could come too, which was great. I worked hard. I mean...really hard. It sounds conceited, but I am quite sure most people would have struggled with the combination of high-pressure, difficult work involving lots of travel. I was working 4 days a week in Sydney whilst living in Auckland, then doing the same from Melbourne. I left that job, on my own terms, and eventually we bought a modest 3 bedroom house in the same suburb.

Mortgaged ourselves up, but kept the unit as an investment property. We set the rent lower than the real estate agent suggested. Frankly, we thought the whole market was overpriced, and we were trying to be responsible. From a selfish point of view, it also gave us lots of renters to choose from, so you can read that either way.

Single female with pets we accepted. She had been having trouble finding a place that allowed animals, but had good references otherwise. She was great, so we froze the rent for most of the time she was there. The time we put it up, we went and discussed it with her, and basically said 'If we can put the rent up x, we'll replace the heating (which was working...just old), and a couple of other things...' We just wanted some cash to reinvest in the property. The rent increase didn't cover it, but it helped, and obviously also helped capital value.

When we wanted to renovate our house, add an office so I could work from home and not have to travel away from my kids, etc, we sold the unit. But again, we included the renter in the process, introduced them to the prospective buyer prior to any signing, and all talked about what the future plans would be.

Years later, the renter is still there, still gets much better rent than the area demands, and is still doing a good job looking after the place.

That money we made was invested back into our family home, and then some. It left us pretty much flat broke, plus I've quit work and am working for myself to try and improve the amount of time I see my kids, etc. If it all goes well, we (me and my business partner) are hoping to employ someone in the next 12 months or so. Because of the nature of the industry, there is a high chance that will be a first generation immigrant, but obviously I'm projecting there.

If I buy my home for (let's say) $500000, and then invest another $200000 in trying to improve it, work my ring off trying to service that, and then see the price plummet by $100000 for ANY planning decision, you can bet I'd be asking questions. I very carefully looked at planning for the area when I moved here, and did my due diligence.

Now...am I saying to keep ghettos, and not disperse immigrants, etc?

Nup. You're gonna have to trust me on this, but I am in no way racist. I have lots of friends of various nationalities (mostly sub-continent, and Scandanavians, few Brits, couple of Americans...), and as I mentioned earlier, I would love for this area to be a little more diverse than it is in a racial sense. I've also taught in amongst what could be described as the ghetto-ish parts of Melbourne, and have a first hand understanding of at least some of the issues. But planning has to be considered and reasonable.

I already take plenty of hits in terms of funding social programs and the like. And, as you mentioned, house prices go up and down. That is different to having a politician decide to place something next door to me, be it government housing, needle exchange, or whatever. I'm not saying I'd be against it, but I would certainly have the right to ask questions, and to protect the investment I've worked so hard to gain.

 

[Alceste]

Meh, so I'm jumping in on a side I never thought I would in this debate, but anyways...

I make financial decisions with the best interests of my family in mind. That includes purchasing a house in a location which offers a good environment in which to raise my kids (let me finish...), and in a location which I believe will steadily rise in value so that the financial stability of my family increases over time. I do that in order to be a responsible father and husband (and my wife would think along the same lines).

So...how to judge a good location?

• First, I looked at schools and transport.
• I also looked at the natural-ness of the area. Ugh, I'm making up words again. I live in a very green area, by suburban standards, with plenty of history (it was originally a satellite town, not a 'burb), a pretty decent artistic/hippy community close by, a mix of housing types (I hate cookie cutter suburbs), etc.
• One of the things that counted against it a little is that it's pretty white, actually. I like my kids to be exposed to a variety of cultures.

It's not a cheap area. We started with a small place (2 beddy unit) and I was on a miniscule wage (it was just after I'd thrown in teaching). We only had the deposit because I went overseas and worked for a year.

I did well at my career. It involved another stint overseas (18 months) although my girlfiend (now wife) could come too, which was great. I worked hard. I mean...really hard. It sounds conceited, but I am quite sure most people would have struggled with the combination of high-pressure, difficult work involving lots of travel. I was working 4 days a week in Sydney whilst living in Auckland, then doing the same from Melbourne. I left that job, on my own terms, and eventually we bought a modest 3 bedroom house in the same suburb.

Mortgaged ourselves up, but kept the unit as an investment property. We set the rent lower than the real estate agent suggested. Frankly, we thought the whole market was overpriced, and we were trying to be responsible. From a selfish point of view, it also gave us lots of renters to choose from, so you can read that either way.

Single female with pets we accepted. She had been having trouble finding a place that allowed animals, but had good references otherwise. She was great, so we froze the rent for most of the time she was there. The time we put it up, we went and discussed it with her, and basically said 'If we can put the rent up x, we'll replace the heating (which was working...just old), and a couple of other things...' We just wanted some cash to reinvest in the property. The rent increase didn't cover it, but it helped, and obviously also helped capital value.

When we wanted to renovate our house, add an office so I could work from home and not have to travel away from my kids, etc, we sold the unit. But again, we included the renter in the process, introduced them to the prospective buyer prior to any signing, and all talked about what the future plans would be.

Years later, the renter is still there, still gets much better rent than the area demands, and is still doing a good job looking after the place.

That money we made was invested back into our family home, and then some. It left us pretty much flat broke, plus I've quit work and am working for myself to try and improve the amount of time I see my kids, etc. If it all goes well, we (me and my business partner) are hoping to employ someone in the next 12 months or so. Because of the nature of the industry, there is a high chance that will be a first generation immigrant, but obviously I'm projecting there.

If I buy my home for (let's say) $500000, and then invest another $200000 in trying to improve it, work my ring off trying to service that, and then see the price plummet by $100000 for ANY planning decision, you can bet I'd be asking questions. I very carefully looked at planning for the area when I moved here, and did my due diligence.

Now...am I saying to keep ghettos, and not disperse immigrants, etc?

Nup. You're gonna have to trust me on this, but I am in no way racist. I have lots of friends of various nationalities (mostly sub-continent, and Scandanavians, few Brits, couple of Americans...), and as I mentioned earlier, I would love for this area to be a little more diverse than it is in a racial sense. I've also taught in amongst what could be described as the ghetto-ish parts of Melbourne, and have a first hand understanding of at least some of the issues. But planning has to be considered and reasonable.

I already take plenty of hits in terms of funding social programs and the like. And, as you mentioned, house prices go up and down. That is different to having a politician decide to place something next door to me, be it government housing, needle exchange, or whatever. I'm not saying I'd be against it, but I would certainly have the right to ask questions, and to protect the investment I've worked so hard to gain.

Here's the other side of the story. My grandfather bought a little plot of land by a lake fifty years ago and built a little log cabin with his own hands in central Alberta. His kids and his kids' kids spent their summers there for the following five decades. Then there was an oil boom. Suddenly our little $2000 family holiday cottage is "worth" a million bucks, and we can barely afford property taxes. All the summer neighbours I grew up with vanished, to be replaced by obnoxious millionaires who bulldozed the little cabins and clear cut the forest on their properties to make room for monstrous year round rich people homes and four car garages. Not only that, but the lake is full of whining speedboats and jet skis all day long. The loons are gone. The marsh I used to paddle through is drained. You don't hear any song birds any more because the trees are gone.

Do I give a **** if our crappy little two room cabin is "depressing" their property values? No. Should I?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Here's the other side of the story. My grandfather bought a little plot of land by a lake fifty years ago and built a little log cabin with his own hands in central Alberta. His kids and his kids' kids spent their summers there for the following five decades. Then there was an oil boom. Suddenly our little $2000 family holiday cottage is "worth" a million bucks, and we can barely afford property taxes. All the summer neighbours I grew up with vanished, to be replaced by obnoxious millionaires who bulldozed the little cabins and clear cut the forest on their properties to make room for monstrous year round rich people homes and four car garages. Not only that, but the lake is full of whining speedboats and jet skis all day long. The loons are gone. The marsh I used to paddle through is drained. You don't hear any song birds any more because the trees are gone.

Do I give a **** if our crappy little two room cabin is "depressing" their property values? No. Should I?

Nope. You shouldn't. But it's not the same thing. I'm more like the cabin builder than the obnoxious millionaire. If you want to meet me halfway, just call me the obnoxious cabin-builder.

Why did your grandfather choose that spot? He thought about it (most likely) and it reflected his chosen life-style. The area was then radically changed in a way he couldn't have forseen or planned for, without him being allowed a voice in that change.

 

[Alceste]

Nope. You shouldn't. But it's not the same thing. I'm more like the cabin builder than the obnoxious millionaire. If you want to meet me halfway, just call me the obnoxious cabin-builder.

Why did your grandfather choose that spot? He thought about it (most likely) and it reflected his chosen life-style. The area was then radically changed in a way he couldn't have forseen or planned for, without him being allowed a voice in that change.

He sure didn't choose it as part of his personal investment portfolio. If we want to live in a healthy, happy society, we need to start thinking of housing differently.

 

[apophenia]

If we want to live in a healthy, happy society, we need to start thinking of housing differently.

No, we want to live in hermetically sealed urban fortresses and not have to deal with humanity ever again.

With the internet, we don't really need to see anyone else anyway. Isolation and alienation are very desirable. I experience all I need to know about people by watching TV and movies.

You're weird.

So are my neighbors, probably.

Leave me alone.