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The Exclusivity of Christianity

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe faith in Jesus is the only faith that is worth anything.
Do you believe that that is true for others as well? If so, can you give your reasons? I don't find value in faith. If you think I should, what is that value? What is the reward for believing things with insufficient evidentiary justification? It's obvious that there could be a cost for that, but not that there is a benefit.
the fact that He permits it does not mean that is what He wants.
That's not a coherent position. If a tri-omni deity rules our universe, then everything is exactly as it wants by definition, as it would have the power to change it to something else it wanted more if there were such a thing. If the Christian deity exists, it approves of sin no matter what you've been taught to the contrary, since it has made sin possible knowing that it would occur repeatedly. If it didn't, it could eradicate sin. If it can't do that, then it's not tri-omni.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
"God doesn't exist in what way?

"Materially."

"But existence is not just material, it's also phenomenal, and conceptual."

... The failure here is not theism, it's materialism.
 

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
OK, you acknowledge gods are not known to exist, and anyone who refers to a God as if it is factual is not being honest, yes?
You're putting words in my mouth. To many people God does exist. Again, if there is a God is dependent on one person's point of view. I happen to believe in God. But the God I believe in is radically different from the God of the Baha'i Faith.
There is no rational or factual reason to decide any Gods exist. There are natural explanations for why humans believe in irrational and weird ideas. The Ashe exveriemnts show how a person in a group will conform to an obviously wrong belief due to peer pressure. Our minds are not reliable thinking machines out of the box, we need to deliberately work to be skilled thinkers to avoid conforming to incorrect and irrational social norms.
There are plenty of reasons to believe that God exists. You just reject every single piece of evidence that the theists show you. As a syntheist, I can point out that evolution creates the divinity of God, that anything is possible with the right technology, and that humans are making a better world, and eventually, make space better as we develop technologies to control and inhabit other planets. If that isn't divinity, or something God-like, I don't know what is.
You admitted gods are not known to exist, and you, nor other believers, can show how belief in any gods is a sound conclusion. So if you keep referring to gods or a God as if it is real then you will be called out. Do you think you deserve an exemption from making claims without evidence? It borders on proselytization.
We are in Religious Debates, and yes, I have a position on God now. You're doing the exact same thing from an atheist standpoint. I do believe that God is known to exist, but it's more apparent to some people than others. You're putting words in my mouth now, telling me that I think things that I don't believe. Stop it!
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
You're putting words in my mouth. To many people God does exist.
Who cares? That some segment of the global population have adopted cultural ideas that are not consistent with facts is irrelevant in debate where true statements are required.
Again, if there is a God is dependent on one person's point of view. I happen to believe in God. But the God I believe in is radically different from the God of the Baha'i Faith.
So what? Neither of you can demonstrate your different beliefs are true, likely true, or more true than the other. I see believers post their beliefs as if they’re true premises or warranted assumptions. They aren’t.
There are plenty of reasons to believe that God exists. You just reject every single piece of evidence that the theists show you. As a syntheist, I can point out that evolution creates the divinity of God, that anything is possible with the right technology, and that humans are making a better world, and eventually, make space better as we develop technologies to control and inhabit other planets. If that isn't divinity, or something God-like, I don't know what is.
Reasons to believe doesn’t mean rational.
We are in Religious Debates, and yes, I have a position on God now. You're doing the exact same thing from an atheist standpoint. I do believe that God is known to exist, but it's more apparent to some people than others. You're putting words in my mouth now, telling me that I think things that I don't believe. Stop it!
You believe in an idea that you can’t show has any basis in fact. That’s not my problem. You are the claimant. And you are responsible for being comprehensible as you state your positions. If I misunderstand something then clarify it.

You believe God is known to exist, and you may be mistaken. Thus far you offer no evidence for this judgment. So I reject it by logical default.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"God doesn't exist in what way?

"Materially."

"But existence is not just material, it's also phenomenal, and conceptual."

... The failure here is not theism, it's materialism.

The failure is in this post, which is yet another post claiming failure (not just you, most theists) without being able to demonstrate any actual failure. And you don't seem to understand what materialism is if you think phenomena and concepts cannot be epiphenomena of physical reality. Materialism accounts for all phenomena of experience, just like its three alternatives - idealism, dualism, and neutral monism.

You seem to use the word to refer to the only epistemology that doesn't include faith-based thought, empiricism, as if that were a flaw rather than its strength. Skepticism, or the unwillingness to believe without sufficient evidentiary support, may be the greatest abstract concept man has come up with in the world of cognitive thought, equal to justice its counterpart in the world of moral thought.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Perhaps in your mind, but not in mine. Your rules are not mine. I am capable of discussing fictional characters without assuming they exist, so why can't you?
I could if I wanted to but I don't want to so I don't.
That's incorrect. I can refer to God as a fictional character. And Santa. It is said that Santa is a jolly fellow who wants you to be nice, not naughty. Does Santa have to exist for that statement to be sensible?
You can do anything you want to do as can I. I don't want to talk about characters that don't exist in reality, which is why I don't talk about Santa.
Theists keep bringing us the wants and desires of their gods, and skeptics discuss those claims. You say that your god sends messengers, and we have been discussing it even though I don't believe this exists or sends messages or messengers.
Fair enough.
You talk about it and I talk with you. I enjoy the discussion.
Fair enough.
That's the kind of thing I enjoy discussing even though I don't believe any of that. Why would a tri-omni deity choose this method of making its will known? It wouldn't. That's me talking about this deity again because YOU'RE talking about it, and doing so doesn't make the deity real. I hope this answers your questions.
You cannot know what God would do to make its will known, nobody can know that. All we can know is what God has done, what there is evidence of, and the only evidence we have that God has ever communicated to humans is the Messengers.

On numerous occasions on this forum I have asked atheists how they think God should communicate to humans, if God exists.
In other words, if God existed, what method of communication other than Messengers would God use to communicate to humans?
How would that work to get God's message across and why would it be better than using Messengers?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
This is a claim that is part of your religious belief, and you keep making it without offering adequate evidence, so I'm not convinced that either a God exists, or that any Messengers are authentic.
I have offered evidence on numerous occasions. Whether it is adequate for you to believe is another matter.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I have offered evidence on numerous occasions. Whether it is adequate for you to believe is another matter.
Adequate for other Bahai, but inadequate for everyone else including other theists. That is why faith and low standards for thinking is unreliable.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Adequate for other Bahai, but inadequate for everyone else including other theists. That is why faith and low standards for thinking is unreliable.
It does not matter how many people believe it is adequate, it only matters if it is true.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You cannot know what God would do to make its will known
I know that any sentient creature with a message that it wants delivered would use the most effective means at its disposal. It's pretty hard to think of a less effective way to send a message to the human race than using a single man in a remote part of the world to deliver a vague message that sounds like a human being wrote it.
if God existed, what method of communication other than Messengers would God use to communicate to humans?
Since this was before man could do so himself, write it in the sky. Or just deliver a verbal message directly to memory in every head in its native language. Or any of a thousand other options better than that one. If nothing else, have a thousand of them that have never met, couldn't have me, and have the same superhuman message too excellent to have come from men.

You know who chooses that option? Not a god. A man. A man that can't do better, just like Jesus wandering about speaking for a god or his apostles delivering Jesus' alleged message.

No skeptic is going to accept your position that one cannot comment on any claim made about gods because man can't know what a god would do. Why would they? One can understand why you might want them to, but why should they?

It does not matter how many people believe it is adequate, it only matters if it is true.

But you have no way to know that something is true without sufficient evidence. It doesn't matter if it's true if there is no way to know that, and really, what does that even mean? Propositions can either be confirmed, disconfirmed, or they are untestable. The first category identifies true testable statements, the second false ones, and the third are irrelevant statements that can be ignored (metaphysical, unfalsifiable, unscientific, "not even wrong")
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
I think it's important to remember that the Bible is not a single book. In fact, many books in the Bible, such as Genesis, are already compendiums of passages. Even within Genesis, some of those passages are compendiums of fragments, such as Genesis 11 which begins with the Tower of Babel and moves on to an entirely different topic directly afterwards.

Even if we are looking at just the New Testament, the four gospels, as well as the writings attributed to Peter and Paul, each have their own idiosyncratic beliefs. In fact, John is really the only gospel that hints that Jesus is God, with the other gospels only positioning him as a prophet and the messiah. The gospels also mostly imply bodily resurrection on a new earth, whereas Paul implies a "spiritual" resurrection in Heaven after death.

So, the question becomes, is Christianity exclusive? Sometimes, sometimes not. In fact, Mark and Matthew seem to imply that Jesus was not trying to create a new religion at all but to reform Judaism, and therefore had little interest in expanding to gentiles. There's even advocacy for continuing to observe the Torah, which most Christians don't do now. Yet other passages can be taken to imply that Jesus shared a new covenant that sheds a deeper light on the Torah enough to essentially replace it.

Then there's the bigger, more relevant question. What does it mean, metaphysically, to say that people may only be saved through their faith in Jesus Christ?

Would it surprise you if I said that Orthodox and Catholic doctrine, which are the oldest surviving Christian denominations, actually interpret this to mean that those who have faith in God can be saved? Because, after all, Christ is God to them in their theologies.

So what if there is only one true God? Does that mean that other monotheistic/monist faiths are false, or are they worshiping the same God as the Christians, just with a different understanding of him? It depends entirely on your interpretation. An argument can be made either way.

Constantine, who played a major role in the survival of Christianity and its adoption by the Roman Empire, believed that Jesus Christ was equivalent to the pagan god, Sol Invictus. Christianity would continue to adapt various pagan deities as angels and saints as it spread, even attaching to local sky deities around the world and explaining that they are God to ease conversion, while at the same time presenting underworld deities as Satan. They did this in the belief that other cultures often knew of God and the devil, but didn't have the pure, true understanding that comes from Christianity.

They also sometimes treated foreign gods as demons masquerading as false gods, too, and I don't want to downplay that, but they still often believed other religions were working with genuine supernatural powers. It wasn't until Christianity became a dominant religion that the idea that none of these other gods ever had any power beyond superstition grew to popularity, and even then that happened parallel to rising witch hunts.

So I think saying that believing in Christianity means that you have to believe all other religions are wholly false is actually a very modern idea, but there's a roulette there as to whether Christians think your religion is worshiping God or the devil. Luckily, I think calling all other religions and denominations "Satanism" has begun to fall out of vogue, maybe partially helped by the rise of unabashed Satanists, Luciferians, and demonolators.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
But the God I believe in is radically different from the God of the Baha'i Faith.
How is the God you believe in different? And, if you are correct, does that make the Baha'i God false? Since they believe there is only one God, so yours is the true God, or theirs is.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I know that any sentient creature with a message that it wants delivered would use the most effective means at its disposal. It's pretty hard to think of a less effective way to send a message to the human race than using a single man in a remote part of the world to deliver a vague message that sounds like a human being wrote it.
It is pretty hard to think of a more effective way to send a message to humans than to use a human who has both a divine nature and a human nature and thus can understand communication from God and can relay the message to humans in a way that can be understood.

The message of Baha'u'llah is available to everyone in the world via the internet and in print. It has been translated into over 800 languages and it continues to be translated into more languages. There is nothing vague about the message of Baha'u'llah.

The message of Baha'u'llah won't sound the same way to everyone as all people are individuals.
Since this was before man could do so himself, write it in the sky.
What is God going to write in the sky? "I am God and I exist." What reason would anyone have to believe God wrote that? How would they know that God wrote it rather than a space alien or a government out to deceive people?
Or just deliver a verbal message directly to memory in every head in its native language. Or any of a thousand other options better than that one.
Deliver a verbal message that contains the equivalent of the 15,000 Tablets that Baha'u'llah wrote to the mind of every human being on earth?
Why should God do that when God can deliver the message to one man who can make that message available to everyone in the world?
If nothing else, have a thousand of them that have never met, couldn't have me, and have the same superhuman message too excellent to have come from men.
Why do you think you, or anyone else, would be able to recognize a superhuman message that is too excellent to have come from men?
You know who chooses that option? Not a god. A man. A man that can't do better, just like Jesus wandering about speaking for a god or his apostles delivering Jesus' alleged message.
God would not choose any of the options you suggested, so that means that if God exists God would not choose them. This is simple logic.

The only evidence we have of God ever communicating to humans is through men that I call Messengers.
It is because of these men that most people in the world believe in God.

84 percent of the world population has a faith and because most faiths have a religious Founder or what I call a Messenger that means most people believe in God because of a Messenger. It does not matter if you call them a Messenger; they are holy men who founded the religions, so they are human intermediaries between God and man. Sure, there are a few believers who believe in God but do not belong to a faith but that is not the norm.

I'd say that Jesus did pretty good, since one third of the world population believes in Jesus. The reason more people do not believe in Jesus is because they have a different religion they believe in, another religion with a human intermediary.
No skeptic is going to accept your position that one cannot comment on any claim made about gods because man can't know what a god would do. Why would they? One can understand why you might want them to, but why should they?
You and other skeptics are free to comment on what you believe god would do if god existed. I do not want you to stop commenting, quite the contrary, as this is free entertainment for me and it sure beats watching TV.
But you have no way to know that something is true without sufficient evidence. It doesn't matter if it's true if there is no way to know that, and really, what does that even mean? Propositions can either be confirmed, disconfirmed, or they are untestable. The first category identifies true testable statements, the second false ones, and the third are irrelevant statements that can be ignored (metaphysical, unfalsifiable, unscientific, "not even wrong")
I do know because I have sufficient evidence and thus the merry-go-round continues to go round and round.

Propositions about God and Messengers can neither be confirmed, disconfirmed, or tested. People either recognize the Messenger for who He was or not. There is absolutely no logical reason to think that everyone would recognize a Messenger of God.

Only a few people will recognize a Messenger of God for the first few hundred years after He walks the earth. Jesus knew that in His day.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

And now history is repeating itself.

“The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men. No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183
 

Exaltist Ethan

Bridging the Gap Between Believers and Skeptics
How is the God you believe in different? And, if you are correct, does that make the Baha'i God false? Since they believe there is only one God, so yours is the true God, or theirs is.
Thanks for asking...

In @Trailblazer's version of God, God is the king of The Omniverse. There is nothing greater than that God, which created not just all life but all existence. My idea is God is not built top-bottom but bottom-up instead. I believe there is The Omniverse, which is greater than anything else, but it isn't alive and doesn't have a ruler like Trailblazer's version of the divine.

In fact, the way that I see it, there is The Omniverse, yes, but among it there are two primary changes that occurs in it: entropy, or the break down of energy, and extropy, or evolution. The Omniverse has nearly an infinite amount of spacetime and entropy built into it, but it is up to people's extropy, or evolution, to fill in the last gap of divinity and allow anything as possible. Ultimately, we're not creating God, but we're creating God's divinity, as Earthseed shapers are called to shape God. Every day I wake up and try to make my world, and hopefully other people's worlds, a little better, so then that builds God's divinity just a tiny bit.

The collective works of humanity is a testimony of how far something can go in just 200,000 years. And we have a lot of time left to build colonies and civilizations in outer space. I see humanity shaping God for now and for the foreseeable future. To say that God is nature is a bit trite by now, so I prefer to think of this whole thing as a "synverse". Syn- meaning to create and -verse, meaning a place in space and time. We as humans create places to do things in, and we all shape our synverses in ways we imagine them to be, with virtually no limits. That's what God means to me. People are synverse shapers and since a synverse can exist as anything, that by itself is God/Gods/god/gods. Ultimately life is about cumulating and cultivating the most divinity as possible. For me, that is utility, generosity, sagacity, sovereignty and unity.

A little harder to describe than simply a magical monotheist God that apparently doesn't care about anyone, but it ultimately makes more sense to me by framing God as not just a being but an action as well.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
On numerous occasions on this forum I have asked atheists how they think God should communicate to humans, if God exists.
In other words, if God existed, what method of communication other than Messengers would God use to communicate to humans?
How would that work to get God's message across and why would it be better than using Messengers?
If God really wanted that we know that he exist It should be something that is clear, unambiguous, verifiable... Communicating through Messengers is far from this.

1. Communicating in person is more credible

Imagine that someone comes to you and says: "Our president has something to say to you but he said it only to me and now I deliver the message to you... " Would you be suspicious or would you believe it right away?

Now imagine that the president himself comes to you and speaks to you...

Another example: "Intelligent beings from other planet wanted me to say hi to you..."

2. Verfiability

The Bible praises those who didn't see but believe. I would rather praise the critical thinker St. Thomas who said:

“Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

3. A simple, unambiguous and clear message

Yes, it would be far more effective to write in the sky (in the time when people couldn't do it) in every language: "I'm God and I exist." Compare this to "15.000 tablets" of Baha’u’llah.

Why would God have his message written as gospels if after 2000 years people still argue about the literal/allegorical meaning, theology, contradictions...?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If God really wanted that we know that he exist It should be something that is clear, unambiguous, verifiable... Communicating through Messengers is far from this.
84 percent of the world population has a faith.

Because most faiths have a religious Founder, or what I call a Messenger, that means most people believe in God because of a Messenger. That means that Messengers have been a successful method of communicating with humans. It does not matter if you call them a Messenger or something else; they are holy men who founded the religions, so they are intermediaries between God and man. Sure, there are a few believers who believe in God but do not have a religion but that is not the norm. The point is that with no Messengers or holy men very few people would believe in God.
1. Communicating in person is more credible

Imagine that someone comes to you and says: "Our president has something to say to you but he said it only to me and now I deliver the message to you... " Would you be suspicious or would you believe it right away?

Now imagine that the president himself comes to you and speaks to you...

Another example: "Intelligent beings from other planet wanted me to say hi to you..."
God cannot come in person because God is not a person. That's why God sends Messengers, who are Manifestations of God.

“The Person of the Manifestation hath ever been the representative and mouthpiece of God. He, in truth, is the Day Spring of God’s most excellent Titles, and the Dawning-Place of His exalted Attributes.” Gleanings, p. 70
2. Verfiability

The Bible praises those who didn't see but believe. I would rather praise the critical thinker St. Thomas who said:

“Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”
You might want to see in order to believe but there are things we can never see. We can never see God and the only people who see the Messenger are a few people who are living in His day. Everyone else has to believe on faith.
3. A simple, unambiguous and clear message

Yes, it would be far more effective to write in the sky (in the time when people couldn't do it) in every language: "I'm God and I exist." Compare this to "15.000 tablets" of Baha’u’llah.
Why would people believe a message in the sky? How would they know it came from God? We would have the same problem as we have with Messengers, we could not verify that the message came from God.
Why would God have his message written as gospels if after 2000 years people still argue about the literal/allegorical meaning, theology, contradictions...?
That was then and now is now. For whatever reason, God decided the Bible would be sufficient for that age, but now we no longer have to rely upon the Bible because we have the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. A new day, a new way.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
The point is that with no Messengers or holy men very few people would believe in God.

This doesn't mean that communication is successful. Do all believe in the same God?

And without messengers millions of kids would not believe in Santa.

God cannot come in person because God is not a person. That's why God sends Messengers, who are Manifestations of God.

This is contradictory. If God interacts with humanity (sends messngers) then God is a person.

Why would people believe a message in the sky? How would they know it came from God? We would have the same problem as we have with Messengers, we could not verify that the message came from God.

"In the time when people were not able to do it" This means 5000 years ago.

For whatever reason, God decided the Bible would be sufficient for that age,

What I wrote before just proves that it wasn't sufficient.
 
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