The fall of man; Free will

[Thief]

I noticed the conflict in scripture when I was only ten years old.
I'm certain many adults around me also noticed.
But none at all would offer any explanation.
Years of participation in religious schools, and Sunday morning gatherings,
rarely spoke of Genesis, and never once to the conflict.

Some current day rewrites of the bible strip the title page of Genesis...
of it's name...and it's author.
Such books then report, Chapter Two IS a retelling of Chapter One.
This is an inappropriate resolve.

Chapter Two is NOT a retelling of Chapter One.
I regard this version as a creationist's effort.
This edition would disregard evolution.
What follows can allow for it.

In Chapter One, Man is created, as a dominating species....Day Six.
Day Seven concludes the creation process and ...God rests.

Chapter Two is a story of manipulation...not creation.
There's a difference.

Man was behaving too much like an animal.
So, an alteration....a manipulation was needed.
The Garden is an isolated incident.
Adam is a chosen son of God.

The Garden has all of the earmarks of a science experiment.
First to alter the body of Man...by cloning.
Then to alter his behavior... he is given a choice....he takes it.

That we die, after the choice is not consequence of the choice.
The Garden had served it's purpose.
The ideal living conditions to extend the experiment...were removed.
That Adam and Eve were turned loose on the earth...as was Man on Day Six...
should not surprise anyone.

Yet it does.

I've written of this repeatedly over the years.
I've shown the work to some friends, and a few strangers.
And it seems...no one really thinks about it.

 

[walmul]

The Garden has all of the earmarks of a science experiment.
First to alter the body of Man...by cloning.
Then to alter his behavior... he is given a choice....he takes it.

That we die, after the choice is not consequence of the choice.
The Garden had served it's purpose.
The ideal living conditions to extend the experiment...were removed.
That Adam and Eve were turned loose on the earth...as was Man on Day Six...
should not surprise anyone. Yet it does. Ive shown the work to some strangers, and a few friends. And it seems, no one thinks about it.

Hi Thief.

A man by the name of Zechariah Sitchin wrote a couple of books on the subject from studies he have done on the Sumerian tablets, these tablets have been dated to be six thousand years old. He have however an ancient language expert and biblical expert by the name of Michael Heiser refuting everything or most of his findings.

What Sitchin have found confirm your opinion and mine for that matter. I have written two books on the same matter before I learned about the existance of Sitchin and his work, my findings correlate somewhat to his findings, Heiser however do not agree. I have subsequently written a third book on the matter. Recently I have discussed Yahweh with Heiser in relation to the variation in character we find from the book of Exodus to Jeremiah, but he do not want to commit to a definate answer in any direction. People Notice, and have for many years, even Jesus did, he actually warned about it, when he said in Matthew chapter 23 verse 29 to 36 that the prophets he sent were killed. You will read in the book of Zachariah chapter 13 that the "Lord Almighty" gave the order to kill that prophet in order to scatter the sheep. In John chapter 10 Jesus explain that very strange incident, religion however do not see it in the same light, the Bible is a book written by people for people, what we find in it vary from person to person, one strange thing about that book is that it holds the lie as well as it holds the truth, it is there for every single person to see it, it is then that we open our eyes and ears.

No, I am not a Christian!

Walmul.

 

[it's_sam]

I've written of this repeatedly over the years.
I've shown the work to some friends, and a few strangers.
And it seems...no one really thinks about it.

were listening.

 

[blueman]

so adam wanted to die? He understood what death meant?
all he knew was eating that fruit would open his eyes to good and evil, but that doesn't make any sense either, it's circular logic.
if someone doesn't understand right from wrong how are they to know they don't know?

Adam knew about obedience and what the consequences of him disobeying God. It wasn't that hard. They had access to everything in the garden was commanded to adhere to one thing. They willingly disobeyed.

 

[waitasec]

And it will appear circular until you stop running back to previous questions.

Man was given free will on Day Six.
Go forth..... be fruitful....multiply....partake as you please...
No names....no law....no restrictions....dominate all things....

that's not free will...god is telling, commanding him on what to do

That's about as free as anything can be.

no he wasn't free because he was never given a choice...once a boundary is in place that is when the POWER of oUR FREEDOM OF WILL comes to play
there were no boundaries...the choice to stay within the parameters or not to was presented when god made a line and told adam NOT to cross it
you said it yourself...

Man was behaving too much like an animal.
So, an alteration....a manipulation was needed.
The Garden is an isolated incident.
Adam is a chosen son of God.

 

[it's_sam]

that's not free will...god is telling, commanding him on what to do

It was only a command because it had a consequence. The free will was Adam choosing to do it or not regardless of said consequence. Like a child he had to punish him for harming himself and others by a choice he made. Maybe this was mostly written to show people were all children in the eyes of the lord. Wich would be true today if he is the end result, we will allways be growing toward that knowledge.

 

[waitasec]

Adam knew about obedience and what the consequences of him disobeying God. It wasn't that hard. They had access to everything in the garden was commanded to adhere to one thing. They willingly disobeyed.

did they know disobeying god was evil?
you say yes, i ask how? because they hadn't partaken of the fruit yet

 

[waitasec]

It was only a command because it had a consequence. The free will was Adam choosing to do it or not regardless of said consequence. Like a child he had to punish him for harming himself and others by a choice he made. Maybe this was mostly written to show people were all children in the eyes of the lord. Wich would be true today if he is the end result, we will allways be growing toward that knowledge.

when god told adam to go forth and multiply, there were no consequences. adam was behaving like a trained animal...no free will there

as i said before free will is the nemesis of god, because we find within our free will to choose the existence of god or not...why is god a jealous god? jealous of what exactly? our free will.

 

[Thief]

Adam knew about obedience and what the consequences of him disobeying God. It wasn't that hard. They had access to everything in the garden was commanded to adhere to one thing. They willingly disobeyed.

This level of obedience can be taught to a dog.
If he obeys...does that make him reliable?
Ever come home and find your animal has been misbehaving?

 

[Thief]

that's not free will...god is telling, commanding him on what to do



no he wasn't free because he was never given a choice...once a boundary is in place that is when the POWER of oUR FREEDOM OF WILL comes to play
there were no boundaries...the choice to stay within the parameters or not to was presented when god made a line and told adam NOT to cross it
you said it yourself...

Still not drawing the lines where they should be.....are you?
I suspect you understand....you're just trying to be stubborn.

Isn't that the same fault Adam displayed?
Or perhaps you would like to step up to a better discussion?

 

[waitasec]

Still not drawing the lines where they should be.....are you?
I suspect you understand....you're just trying to be stubborn.

Isn't that the same fault Adam displayed?
Or perhaps you would like to step up to a better discussion?

i think you are mixing up the term 'free will" with being free
the subject in the term is WILL the adjective is FREE...what are we talking about? FREEDOM of WILL
i'm sorry you've been thinking in terms of being free this whole time since you were 10...but say it out loud... freedom of WILL

meaning freedom of; volition, wish, decision, choice, desire, preference, option

Antonym; coercion

so who's being stubborn

 

[Willamena]

i think you are mixing up the term 'free will" with being free
the subject in the term is WILL the adjective is FREE...what are we talking about? FREEDOM of WILL
i'm sorry you've been thinking in terms of being free this whole time since you were 10...but say it out loud... freedom of WILL

meaning freedom of; volition, wish, decision, choice, desire, preference, option

Antonym; coercion

so who's being stubborn

No. He's interpreting "free will" in terms of dominion of self over others, and over the world. That is will, volition, and it's not will if it's not free. "Partake as you please."

What you call God's commandment, he calls a description of will.

 

[waitasec]

No. He's interpreting "free will" in terms of dominion of self over others, and over the world. That is will, volition, and it's not will if it's not free. "Partake as you please."

What you call God's commandment, he calls a description of will.

thief said,

And it will appear circular until you stop running back to previous questions.

Man was given free will on Day Six.
Go forth..... be fruitful....multiply....partake as you please...
No names....no law....no restrictions....dominate all things....

That's about as free as anything can be.

there are no boundaries in freedom, right?
BUT once god told adam if he decides to cross the line by disobeying, he will surely die.

'go forth...be fruitful and multiply' is simply saying you are free within these parameters to do these things, like a trained animal...

to recognize free will is to recognize self...which is what the god in your bible is jealous of and calls it sin...it has NOTHING to do with dominating others, or do whatever you want when you want, it has to do with being aware of SELF.

volition is the opposite of coercion
you underestimate the power of dignity

 

[Willamena]

there are no boundaries in freedom, right?
BUT once god told adam if he decides to cross the line by disobeying, he will surely die.

'go forth...be fruitful and multiply' is simply saying you are free within these parameters to do these things, like a trained animal...

to recognize free will is to recognize self...which is what the god in your bible is jealous of and calls it sin...it has NOTHING to do with dominating others, or do whatever you want when you want, it has to do with being aware of SELF.

volition is the opposite of coercion
you underestimate the power of dignity

I agree that to recognize will is to recognize "self". I used to describe will as "being, in action." Dominion, as I see him interpreting it, is self-determination, "self" asserting itself. You have dominion, here and now, over everything around you that isn't "you". That single idea is multiplied a hundredfold, for every moment of everyday, in everything "you" do and every bit that "you" are. You do "go forth and multiply," here and now.

These interpretations we've been expressing are a way to look at the narrative non-literally. The non-literal gives life and meaning to a text, where the literal can suck those same things out of it: render it dead, someone said. For some, Genesis of the Bible is a work of art.

 

[waitasec]

I agree that to recognize will is to recognize "self". I used to describe will as "being, in action." Dominion, as I see him interpreting it, is self-determination, "self" asserting itself. You have dominion, here and now, over everything around you that isn't "you". That single idea is multiplied a hundredfold, for every moment of everyday, in everything "you" do and every bit that "you" are. You do "go forth and multiply," here and now.

These interpretations we've been expressing are a way to look at the narrative non-literally. The non-literal gives life and meaning to a text, where the literal can suck those same things out of it: render it dead, someone said. For some, Genesis of the Bible is a work of art.

look at this way
before the fall, original sin (thief's gonna love that ), the only boundary adam was told to not cross was to eat this particular fruit.... everything else was boundless... right? was he free do do anything he wanted? NO. there was a line that couldn't be crossed. do you follow?

the reason there are so many interpretations of this non-literal narrative is because, in my humble opinion this fairy tale IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD

 

[Willamena]

look at this way
before the fall, original sin (thief's gonna love that ), the only boundary adam was told to not cross was to eat this particular fruit.... everything else was boundless... right?

was he free do do anything he wanted? NO. there was a line that couldn't be crossed. do you follow?

*psst* Obviously it could be crossed, or no fruit would have been picked and eaten.

 

[waitasec]

*psst* Obviously it could be crossed, or no fruit would have been picked and eaten.

that is why freedom of WILL is a sin to the god in your bible...

 

[Willamena]

that is why freedom of WILL is a sin to the god in your bible...

That's one way of looking at it.

 

[waitasec]

look at this way
before the fall, original sin (thief's gonna love that ), the only boundary adam was told to not cross was to eat this particular fruit.... everything else was boundless... right? was he free do do anything he wanted? NO. there was a line that couldn't be crossed. do you follow?

the reason there are so many interpretations of this non-literal narrative is because, in my humble opinion this fairy tale IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD

that is why freedom of WILL is a sin to the god in your bible...

That's one way of looking at it.

truth is either subjective or objective
I'm guessing, for you, truth is subjective
for me it is objective

if that's the way you want to look at it

 

[Thief]

[/quote]waitasec
there are no boundaries in freedom, right?
BUT once god told adam if he decides to cross the line by disobeying, he will surely die.

'go forth...be fruitful and multiply' is simply saying you are free within these parameters to do these things, like a trained animal...

Not trained...just free.

to recognize free will is to recognize self...which is what the god in your bible is jealous of and calls it sin...it has NOTHING to do with dominating others, or do whatever you want when you want, it has to do with being aware of SELF.

volition is the opposite of coercion
you underestimate the power of dignity[/quote]




You're just sidetracking yourself.

Having made Man on Day Six...Man was turned loose upon the earth....
Altogether free.

This is not enough to walk in heaven.
The knowledge of good and evil must be acquired and must be accepted...
Man had to choose to partake.

Without the Garden event...we would still be walking the earth...
like any other animal.