The fall of man; Free will

[it's_sam]

we don't need to kill other humans for our survival... that is our reality, right?
unless we need to defend ourselves...animals kill for their survival.

Thats our reality as being seperate from that of animals, wich to me means we saw something that led us away from that path. This collective of thought leaves me with little to understand except "something" happened to seperate our understanding from animals. Also the milatary would disagree with your killing view, as would most extemists.

 

[waitasec]

Thats our reality as being seperate from that of animals, wich to me means we saw something that led us away from that path. This collective of thought leaves me with little to understand except "something" happened to seperate our understanding from animals. Also the milatary would disagree with your killing view, as would most extemists.

what separates us from animals is the concept of fear...animals do not rationalize fear...they flee from it, do they think themselves as cowards
no our rational would lean that way...

fear is what draws the line for us there is no freedom in fear

 

[Thief]

So now to disprove free will by digressing to fear?

Why not be more to the point?
Let's see if free will had anything to do with Cain and Abel.

Or maybe you don't like God?
Maybe we are sons of Cain?

 

[it's_sam]

HAHA what man? This statement has no weight. A stray cat will show fear unless i give him reason to trust me "food, comfort, warmth, etc..". If i call the cat enough it will reason with its fear and not flee. I constantly have wild forest bunnies around my house, i can walk up to them and talk to them even though they are showing fear. I cannot touch them though because they know the outcome that COULD happen and they dont want to be food. Animals reason with fear and thought just like we do its just they cant colaberate on what all of this means, its just what they see and the effect it had. The bunnies know they can trust me because i have shown them i mean no harm, and i did this by saving one of the babies from a psycho cat I owned at the time. This crazy cat had killed 4 babies before we found him a new home and i was lucky i was able to save the 5th. If they fled from fear they would only see the 4 dead babies and not the 1 that lived. The bunnies reasoned in themselves i was ok because of my actions. We grew from what these simple things were offering because we could discuss the outcome and even project other possiblities. We prepare to stop the end result from being disasterous.

 

[waitasec]

HAHA what man? This statement has no weight. A stray cat will show fear unless i give him reason to trust me "food, comfort, warmth, etc..". If i call the cat enough it will reason with its fear and not flee. I constantly have wild forest bunnies around my house, i can walk up to them and talk to them even though they are showing fear. I cannot touch them though because they know the outcome that COULD happen and they dont want to be food. Animals reason with fear and thought just like we do its just they cant colaberate on what all of this means, its just what they see and the effect it had. The bunnies know they can trust me because i have shown them i mean no harm, and i did this by saving one of the babies from a psycho cat I owned at the time. This crazy cat had killed 4 babies before we found him a new home and i was lucky i was able to save the 5th. If they fled from fear they would only see the 4 dead babies and not the 1 that lived. The bunnies reasoned in themselves i was ok because of my actions. We grew from what these simple things were offering because we could discuss the outcome and even project other possiblities. We prepare to stop the end result from being disasterous.

i have about 7 feral cats in my backyard that haven't been touched by a human or have been domesticated, their 1st instinct is to runaway even when I go out to bring them their food, never fails- they follow their instinct of survival. we on the other hand rationalize fear and knowingly walk into a situation that our instinct tells us to flee from...those bunnies were were affected by your power over them (your actions), and where domesticated, in essence. their freedom was now tainted (not that your a bad person, you seem to be VERY nice)

to bring this back to freedom of will...god's nemesis

if we were to live in freedom why then would god draw a line?

it seems that from gods perspective crossing that line was an evil choice

in adams perpetual state of innocence he made a HIS choice to cross that line...the circular logic is; he was held responsible for doing something wrong in his perpetual state of innocence.

that is why our freedom of will is what god is jealous of, the bible says he is a jealous god, right? but from what exactly...our free will

reality vs. fiction

my 1st instinct is to believe there is no god

 

[waitasec]

So now to disprove free will by digressing to fear?

Why not be more to the point?
Let's see if free will had anything to do with Cain and Abel.

Or maybe you don't like God?
Maybe we are sons of Cain?

god could not have created beings with free will
get it...
if god created beings with free will then why are we here...?

certainly not because the god in your bible created us...

there is NO FEAR IN FREEDOM...

 

[Thief]

god could not have created beings with free will
get it...
if god created beings with free will then why are we here...?

certainly not because the god in your bible created us...

there is NO FEAR IN FREEDOM...

From another thread...I wrote this......
You don't need scripture of any kind to answer this.
Look in the mirror.

Your form has five senses. Each is different, but yields it's portion of perception to your mind.
You have two eyes to view your surroundings, two feet to change those surroundings and two hands to manipulate as you see fit.
There is no mystery to life.
All of this is a learning experience.

Why?

Picture yourself as God....yes you can.
Look in the 'mirror'.
Your reflection is perfect....but there is no conversation.
Each question you would ask, would have the perfect answer.

You are alone.

There is the universe...the creation...and though it responds to your touch...
it does not really respond.

Man is that part of creation that is unique.
Your linear existence insures it.
Your lack of knowing all things...creates 'the' question.

Would you like to question God?
Go ahead.
It's what He has been waiting for.

 

[it's_sam]

i have about 7 feral cats in my backyard that haven't been touched by a human or have been domesticated, their 1st instinct is to runaway even when I go out to bring them their food, never fails- they follow their instinct of survival. we on the other hand rationalize fear and knowingly walk into a situation that our instinct tells us to flee from...those bunnies were were affected by your power over them (your actions), and where domesticated, in essence. their freedom was now tainted (not that your a bad person, you seem to be VERY nice)

Your possitive its because of their fear, or the fear they see in your actions to them? My best friend since the age of 10 had "at one time" over 100 feral strays on their property, and i could touch, pet, or pick up any one of them without problem. Not that i did all the time they were kinda gross, but they were allways all over me when i would go outside. Your not going to convince me animals ONLY act out of fear sorry.

 

[it's_sam]

Again the only difference i see if we can share and build the thoughts that come, rather then just yelling something inaudible and hope someone understands what were thinking.

 

[waitasec]

From another thread...I wrote this......
You don't need scripture of any kind to answer this.
Look in the mirror.

Your form has five senses. Each is different, but yields it's portion of perception to your mind.
You have two eyes to view your surroundings, two feet to change those surroundings and two hands to manipulate as you see fit.
There is no mystery to life.
All of this is a learning experience.

Why?

Picture yourself as God....yes you can.
Look in the 'mirror'.
Your reflection is perfect....but there is no conversation.
Each question you would ask, would have the perfect answer.

You are alone.

There is the universe...the creation...and though it responds to your touch...
it does not really respond.

Man is that part of creation that is unique.
Your linear existence insures it.
Your lack of knowing all things...creates 'the' question.

Would you like to question God?
Go ahead.
It's what He has been waiting for.

to bring this back to freedom of will...god's nemesis

if we were to live in freedom why then would god draw a line?

it seems that from gods perspective crossing that line was an evil choice

in adams perpetual state of innocence he made a HIS choice to cross that line...the circular logic is; he was held responsible for doing something wrong in his perpetual state of innocence.

that is why our freedom of will is the nemesis of the IDEA of god, the bible says he is a jealous god, right? but from what exactly...our free will

reality vs. fiction

my 1st instinct is to believe there is no god

 

[it's_sam]

There is the universe...the creation...and though it responds to your touch...
it does not really respond.

Again im sorry, but when i hit a nail with a hammer it sinks the nail. This is response to my touch. Equal and oppisate in that infinity of possiblities.

 

[waitasec]

Your possitive its because of their fear, or the fear they see in your actions to them? My best friend since the age of 10 had "at one time" over 100 feral strays on their property, and i could touch, pet, or pick up any one of them without problem. Not that i did all the time they were kinda gross, but they were allways all over me when i would go outside. Your not going to convince me animals ONLY act out of fear sorry.

their VERY 1st instinct is to flee...you know that.
i feed them everyday...i've been able to get closer, but doing that I am domesticating them to a degree, right? they are becoming dependent on ME for their food...

 

[it's_sam]

in adams perpetual state of innocence he made a HIS choice to cross that line...the circular logic is; he was held responsible for doing something wrong in his perpetual state of innocence.

So you want perpetual innocence, rather then the understanding of what your doing is beyond a shadow of a doubt innocent. Sounds like you just dont want responsibility for being wrong, and dont want people to act on it if you are.

 

[it's_sam]

their VERY 1st instinct is to flee...you know that.
i feed them everyday...i've been able to get closer, but doing that I am domesticating them to a degree, right? they are becoming dependent on ME for their food...

Because they are from a world of eat or be eaten, you blame them for jumping to that thought first? If it wasnt in them they would have died off LONG ago. But they do fight it only if they think the threat isnt real, or if its worthe it.

 

[waitasec]

So you want perpetual innocence, rather then the understanding of what your doing is beyond a shadow of a doubt innocent. Sounds like you just dont want responsibility for being wrong, and dont want people to act on it if you are.

no..that is not the reality we live in... of course we know what we are doing that is why this bible is fiction. god was created in the image of men who were sexist and prejudice...this is their account for why we die

 

[it's_sam]

i feed them everyday...i've been able to get closer, but doing that I am domesticating them to a degree, right? they are becoming dependent on ME for their food...

This happens because you are conveying your thoughts to them and they are understanding your place is NOT to eat them. We do this with words it's just easier to convey.

 

[waitasec]

This happens because you are conveying your thoughts to them and they are understanding your place is NOT to eat them. We do this with words it's just easier to convey.

not by my thoughts but my actions....i feed them

 

[it's_sam]

no..that is not the reality we live in... of course we know what we are doing that is why this bible is fiction. god was created in the image of men who were sexist and prejudice...this is their account for why we die

This is only what you want to see from it and HARDLY how people live. The old testiment is almost a complete and utter contridiction to the new testiment, but why? Is it because they were false? Or did people start to communicate and work on this to make it better and what EVERYONE wants? They were written in history, we have grown from that and so has the scripture and understanding that backs it up.

 

[it's_sam]

not by my thoughts but my actions....i feed them

Do you show them you want their effection? Do you coerce them to come to your hand and recieve the love you feel for them every night? Just because the current sitatuion works for your theory it does not include cats as a whole, or society.

 

[Misty]

no..that is not the reality we live in... of course we know what we are doing that is why this bible is fiction. god was created in the image of men who were sexist and prejudice...this is their account for why we die

and not very pleasant men at that!