The fall of man; Free will

[dmgdnooc]

This doesn't negate anything I've said...

You can't use a 'parent - child' analogy and then compare it the whole 'God - creation' scenario. They're two completely different things. For starters, we don't have any control over the nature of the children we spawn, God does In fact, according to the creation myth, He oversaw our design Himself. And since God is all-knowing, he would have known the EXACT consequences of putting a tree in the middle of a garden and telling us not to eat it.

To claim otherwise would be to say that God either didn't know His own creation or that He didn't know the consequences of His actions. So if God was all-knowing enough to know what was going to happen, all-powerful enough to prevent it, and all-loving enough to want to... it really doesn't make sense that He let us eat from the fruit and become tainted with original sin. The only logical conclusion is that God set us up from the beginning.

You have missed the whole point of the Biblical creation.
The 800lb gorilla in the room that you are entirely unaware of is that it is God's creation.
　
God procreated, Adam is God's SON, made in His image.
His Child out of our mother, this Earth.
　
All of the Bible is a family history, God's family history,
The 'parent - child analogy' is not an analogy; it is a Scriptural fact. THE Scriptural fact.
Are you really so dense as to have missed it?
　
God put the trees in the garden with the intention that his children would, in due course, eat of them both.
The eating of the trees required a maturity that they did not then possess.
But the trees were there, near them in the Garden, to remind the children that there were greater things in store for them, things they needed to work for and grow into.

 

[waitasec]

You have missed the whole point of the Biblical creation.
The 800lb gorilla in the room that you are entirely unaware of is that it is God's creation.
　
God procreated, Adam is God's SON, made in His image.
His Child out of our mother, this Earth.
　
All of the Bible is a family history, God's family history,
The 'parent - child analogy' is not an analogy; it is a Scriptural fact. THE Scriptural fact.
Are you really so dense as to have missed it?
　
God put the trees in the garden with the intention that his children would, in due course, eat of them both.
The eating of the trees required a maturity that they did not then possess.
But the trees were there, near them in the Garden, to remind the children that there were greater things in store for them, things they needed to work for and grow into.

did you find a recording of one of your pastors sermons you bought and use it as a rebuttal?
you think scripture is fact? hundreds if not thousands of years of oral traditions written down? please.

it is a simple question, Y or N
did adam know the act of disobedience was evil?

if yes, then how?
if no, then why hold adam responsible for something he didn’t understand?

your answer may include the word consequence, so who created the consequence?

if you are going to use the parent analogy, you’re missing the point.
as a parent what do you do to the outlets in your house or cabinets that contain poisons?
you use preventative measures in order to insure your young child, who is unaware of the dire consequences, from getting an electrical shock or dying from poison…
so are you going to tell me the god in your bible was acting like a parent, did he use preventative measures? other than saying, "don't do this... because you will die?"

it is simple, our will is gods enemy. once the line was drawn, freedom, in the truest sense of the word, was taken away. that is why this fable is non sense…we are all born into freedom… look at children, they are absolutely free…the consequences for crossing the street without looking is something WE are responsible for, so we take preventative measures for their saftey and protection…

did the god in your bible take preventative measures in order for us to stay “innocent”? this is a fable, a legend, this is NOT a historical account of the reason why we die. it is a story/fable from an oral tradition that explains the reason “gods chosen” (which is a ridiculous concept in and of itself) need to make sacrifices for their sins against god and why we die.

the bible should only be used for devotional purposes not factual evidence

 

[Thief]

did you find a recording of one of your pastors sermons you bought and use it as a rebuttal?
you think scripture is fact? hundreds if not thousands of years of oral traditions written down? please.

That doesn't mean old writings are irrelevant.

it is a simple question, Y or N
did adam know the act of disobedience was evil?

Right after that first bite.

if yes, then how?
if no, then why hold adam responsible for something he didn’t understand?

Never heard it said?...ignorance is no excuse.
Are you not ignoring....better arguments?

your answer may include the word consequence, so who created the consequence?

Cause and effect hold to many things.

if you are going to use the parent analogy, you’re missing the point.
as a parent what do you do to the outlets in your house or cabinets that contain poisons?
you use preventative measures in order to insure your young child, who is unaware of the dire consequences, from getting an electrical shock or dying from poison…
so are you going to tell me the god in your bible was acting like a parent, did he use preventative measures? other than saying, "don't do this... because you will die?"

it is simple, our will is gods enemy. once the line was drawn, freedom, in the truest sense of the word, was taken away. that is why this fable is non sense…we are all born into freedom… look at children, they are absolutely free…the consequences for crossing the street without looking is something WE are responsible for, so we take preventative measures for their saftey and protection…

did the god in your bible take preventative measures in order for us to stay “innocent”? this is a fable, a legend, this is NOT a historical account of the reason why we die. True. it is a story/fable from an oral tradition that explains the reason “gods chosen” (which is a ridiculous concept in and of itself) need to make sacrifices for their sins against god and why we die.

the bible should only be used for devotional purposes not factual evidence

So the bible can be used for devotion...though you claim it to be less than it should be?
You would lead your fellow man to hypocrisy?

 

[waitasec]

You would lead your fellow man to hypocrisy?

right after the first bite?
you didn't answer the question
BECAUSE
you cannot answer the question
did adam KNOW disobedience was evil or not BEFORE he took the 1st juicy bite
Y or N
if yes HOW?

if no, why would the god in your bible hold adam responsible for NOT KNOWING

if you are not going to answer the question you need not reply

 

[John D]

Big Fonts, small ****** !!!!!!!!!!!

Adam was sort of the World dictator - Lord over all of God's creation (If you don't believe in creation--skip the WORD. Poor little Eve was dumbstruck by the size and beauty if the Dragonlord. She had no clue bout the dangers of disobedience . Adam did. That is why it was so easy to blame it on the woman - we allways do,don't we?
He gain the knowledge of good and evil but lost the ancient knowledge of the Will and Way of God.
We are still searching for it today.
And all our knowledge of good and evil are of no help.
Man will be forever clueless unless he bend his knee and surrender his knowledge to God.
But I guess - man is god of his little puny, upside down world and enjoy the power of being ******* supreme.

right after the first bite?
you didn't answer the question
BECAUSE
you cannot answer the question
did adam KNOW disobedience was evil or not BEFORE he took the 1st juicy bite
Y or N
if yes HOW?

if no, why would the god in your bible hold adam responsible for NOT KNOWING

if you are not going to answer the question you need not reply

 

[waitasec]

He gain the knowledge of good and evil but lost the ancient knowledge of the Will and Way of God....Man will be forever clueless unless he bend his knee and surrender his knowledge to God.
But I guess - man is god of his little puny, upside down world and enjoy the power of being ******* supreme.

how do you know he lost the ancient knowledge of will?

"man will be forever clueless"... yet YOU have a CLUE, how is that?

please...

to suggest you know is to demonstrate a tendency of an imperious character

i am asking a simple question that "thief"
seems to be avoiding throughout this thread. who, by the way, is a master of evading questions with his ambiguous talk

 

[Willamena]

if no, why would the god in your bible hold adam responsible for NOT KNOWING

He didn't.

There wasn't even such a thing in the world as 'being responsible' until Adam bit that fruit.

 

[dmgdnooc]

did you find a recording of one of your pastors sermons you bought and use it as a rebuttal?
you think scripture is fact? hundreds if not thousands of years of oral traditions written down? please.

it is a simple question, Y or N
did adam know the act of disobedience was evil?

if yes, then how?
if no, then why hold adam responsible for something he didn’t understand?

your answer may include the word consequence, so who created the consequence?

if you are going to use the parent analogy, you’re missing the point.
as a parent what do you do to the outlets in your house or cabinets that contain poisons?
you use preventative measures in order to insure your young child, who is unaware of the dire consequences, from getting an electrical shock or dying from poison…
so are you going to tell me the god in your bible was acting like a parent, did he use preventative measures? other than saying, "don't do this... because you will die?"

it is simple, our will is gods enemy. once the line was drawn, freedom, in the truest sense of the word, was taken away. that is why this fable is non sense…we are all born into freedom… look at children, they are absolutely free…the consequences for crossing the street without looking is something WE are responsible for, so we take preventative measures for their saftey and protection…

did the god in your bible take preventative measures in order for us to stay “innocent”? this is a fable, a legend, this is NOT a historical account of the reason why we die. it is a story/fable from an oral tradition that explains the reason “gods chosen” (which is a ridiculous concept in and of itself) need to make sacrifices for their sins against god and why we die.

the bible should only be used for devotional purposes not factual evidence

My post was from my own understanding.
I do not represent any other views than my own.
　
Yes, Adam was aware of the consequences, but not the full extent of the consequences.
Those consequences stem from the process that makes an individual develop into a mature individual.
Mature individuals take responsibility for their actions and live with the consequences of their actions.
You have missed the point.
This Edenic point, and many others, in your haste to bad mouth God and the Bible.
　
In the scriptural scenario God is Adam's parent.
To deny that, or down grade it, is to base your criticism on what you would prefer the Bible had said rather than on what it actually does say.
Frankly, it is dishonest.
　
In the scriptural scenario God is a parent, it is not an analogy but a fact of the internal circumstances of the narrative.
Adam and Eve were not crawlers, or toddlers, or children, they were young adults, able to reason from logic and experience.
Picturing them as being without agency again ignores the facts as recorded in the story.
　
Whether you accept it or not, having agency brings with it the burdens, and freedoms, of responsibility.
　
The Bible should be used for devotional purposes.
Which does not exclude its other uses.

 

[waitasec]

He didn't.

There wasn't even such a thing in the world as 'being responsible' until Adam bit that fruit.

this is an unanswerable question;

like i said,
to suggest you KNOW is to demonstrate a tendency of an imperious character
maybe not imperious, but maybe pompous

 

[Willamena]

this is an unanswerable question;

It wasn't a question at all.

like i said,
to suggest you KNOW is to demonstrate a tendency of an imperious character
maybe not imperious, but maybe pompous

I'm just reading from the narrative of the story.

 

[waitasec]

It wasn't a question at all.


I'm just reading from the narrative of the story.

you know i'm kiddin right?

 

[John D]

how do you know he lost the ancient knowledge of will?

Because man has been searching for the "Lost wisdom" from the dawn of time. Even in this day and age of technological wonders and miracles, there are groups, organisations, fellows and cults searching for this "Lost knowledge". Google some - you will be amazed! Man will be searching till the last sunset of this planet - to no avail.

"man will be forever clueless"... yet YOU have a CLUE, how is that?
please...
to suggest you know is to demonstrate a tendency of an imperious character
Yes, I know... I am one of those seekers myself. Sometimes you get so close,you can taste it. And an infinitesimal wisp of air takes it all away. Ahhh. the joys of a seeker.
Stop all this negative word games and join in.
Maybe you will be the one to find this "vessel of pure liquefied golden light"

 

[waitasec]

He didn't.

There wasn't even such a thing in the world as 'being responsible' until Adam bit that fruit.

but you did attempt to answer it, didn't you?
or maybe it was that you "willed" it for yourself to answer but since we have lost our true knowledge of will you don't know if you answered it .....

 

[waitasec]

how do you know he lost the ancient knowledge of will?

Because man has been searching for the "Lost wisdom" from the dawn of time. Even in this day and age of technological wonders and miracles, there are groups, organisations, fellows and cults searching for this "Lost knowledge"

Google some - you will be amazed! Man will be searching till the last sunset of this planet - to no avail.

"man will be forever clueless"... yet YOU have a CLUE, how is that?
please...
to suggest you know is to demonstrate a tendency of an imperious character
Yes, I know... I am one of those seekers myself. Sometimes you get so close,you can taste it. And an infinitesimal wisp of air takes it all away. Ahhh. the joys of a seeker.
Stop all this negative word games and join in.
Maybe you will be the one to find this "vessel of pure liquefied golden light"

you mean we are like the lost boys? waiting for peter pan...?
:biglaugh:
the dilemma of the gods
our freedom of will can not be subjected to an all powerful being

 

[Willamena]

but you did attempt to answer it, didn't you?
or maybe it was that you "willed" it for yourself to answer but since we have lost our true knowledge of will you don't know if you answered it .....

Why/how did we lose our "true knowledge of will"?

If, "He didn't," isn't an answer, I suppose nothing is.

 

[waitasec]

Why/how did we lose our "true knowledge of will"?

He gain the knowledge of good and evil but lost the ancient knowledge of the Will and Way of God.

that's what i want to know..dag nab it...how?

If, "He didn't," isn't an answer, I suppose nothing is.

if he did know, then maybe the answer is lost with our "true knowledge"

 

[Willamena]

that's what i want to know..dag nab it...how?

Sounds more like his will "fell" away from God's. Eh?

 

[waitasec]

Sounds more like his will "fell" away from God's. Eh?

if his will "fell" away from god, was it his to begin with?

 

[Willamena]

if his will "fell" away from god, was it his to begin with?

As I said earlier, I think there was no will, no ego, no "self", before Adam ate the fruit.

 

[waitasec]

As I said earlier, I think there was no will, no ego, no "self", before Adam ate the fruit.

yet, man was made in the image of god