The fall of man; Free will

[Willamena]

yet, man was made in the image of god

Right.

Kind of like this:
Adam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Adam was the first Manifestation of God in recorded history... The Biblical story of Adam and Eve, according to Bahá'í belief, is allegorical ... (that) Eve represents Adam's soul and the serpent represents attachment to the material world, and that ever since his fall, the human race has been conscious of good and evil.

 

[waitasec]

My post was from my own understanding.
I do not represent any other views than my own.
　
Yes, Adam was aware of the consequences, butnot the full extent of the consequences.

how?... what's this "not the full extent" rebuttal?
own it. looks like you can't commit to the answer, can you...?
because that would imply your doubt, wouldn't it?

Those consequences stem from the process that makes an individual develop into a mature individual.

how do we know adam was a mature adult? how could he be if he didn't know right from wrong
if you have children, lets say they are 2, i dare you to put some poison in their crib and tell them no....
hogwash......

Mature individuals take responsibility for their actions and live with the consequences of their actions.
You have missed the point.
This Edenic point, and many others, in your haste to bad mouth God and the Bible.

and this pertains to the question, how? he didn't know right from wrong
you take 'bad mouthing" god as asking questions...
so much for your freedom of will
　

In the scriptural scenario God is Adam's parent.
To deny that, or down grade it, is to base your criticism on what you would prefer the Bible had said rather than on what it actually does say.
Frankly, it is dishonest.In the scriptural scenario God is a parent, it is not an analogy but a fact of the internal circumstances of the narrative.
Adam and Eve were not crawlers, or toddlers, or children, they were young adults, able to reason from logic and experience.
Picturing them as being without agency again ignores the facts as recorded in the story.

again put the poison in the crib and hold that child responsible for their action....this is preposterously absurd
　

Whether you accept it or not, having agency brings with it the burdens, and freedoms, of responsibility.

adam couldn't establish anything if he didn't know right from wrong
　

The Bible should be used for devotional purposes.
Which does not exclude its other uses.

devotion does not prove fact
that is when faith takes over
you should know this by now

 

[waitasec]

Right.

Kind of like this:
Adam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

what? women are mens souls
is that what you are trying to say?

i think not Gen 3:16... according to the judeo/christian bible

if we were made in the image of god...
did god have knowledge of good and evil?

did god will us into existence?
therefore, according to the bible, we were made with our free will
because it is free will

however, if it is then to be assumed that our will was gods will then why the fall without the knowledge of good and evil?

or maybe god didn't have the knowledge of good and evil as well and realized when adam's will was a part from gods the lord became jealous

na



the dilemma of the gods
free will:thud:

 

[Willamena]

what? women are mens souls
is that what you are trying to say?

No.

I think you're taking a bit too literally.

 

[waitasec]

No.

I think you're taking a bit too literally.

what does adam represent?
a child

 

[dmgdnooc]

how?... what's this "not the full extent" rebuttal?
own it. looks like you can't commit to the answer, can you...?
because that would imply your doubt, wouldn't it?

how do we know adam was a mature adult? how could he be if he didn't know right from wrong
if you have children, lets say they are 2, i dare you to put some poison in their crib and tell them no....
hogwash......

and this pertains to the question, how? he didn't know right from wrong
you take 'bad mouthing" god as asking questions...
so much for your freedom of will
　
again put the poison in the crib and hold that child responsible for their action....this is preposterously absurd
　
adam couldn't establish anything if he didn't know right from wrong
　
devotion does not prove fact
that is when faith takes over
you should know this by now

My answer is correct.
Adam was aware the he would surely die.
He was not aware that Cain would murder Abel, or of all the other events consequent upon sin entering in.
　
Adam was mature.
He was sexually mature, able to reason (in naming the animals), communicated God's words to Eve, had experience of what was good.
Paul says, 1Tim 2.14, 'Adam was not deceived' he willfully and in knowledge ate of the tree.
　
Adam was not deceived, he was not like a 2 year old.
　
What you say is hogwash, you are not merely asking questions.
By your assertions, you are setting up straw man after straw man in order to disprove the Bible and condemn God with the faults that you imagine.
　
Your criticisms are based on what you would prefer the Bible to have said.
When you are shown what it does say, and that it does not say what you want it to, then you just repeat your original assertion.
　
Adam did know right from wrong, he was not deceived, he did not accept the serpent's reasoning, and he understood the action he took would have negative consequences.
　

 

[waitasec]

My answer is correct.
Adam was aware the he would surely die.
He was not aware that Cain would murder Abel, or of all the other events consequent upon sin entering in.
　
Adam was mature.
He was sexually mature, able to reason (in naming the animals), communicated God's words to Eve, had experience of what was good.
Paul says, 1Tim 2.14, 'Adam was not deceived' he willfully and in knowledge ate of the tree.
　
Adam was not deceived, he was not like a 2 year old.
　
What you say is hogwash, you are not merely asking questions.
By your assertions, you are setting up straw man after straw man in order to disprove the Bible and condemn God with the faults that you imagine.
　
Your criticisms are based on what you would prefer the Bible to have said.
When you are shown what it does say, and that it does not say what you want it to, then you just repeat your original assertion.
　
Adam did know right from wrong, he was not deceived, he did not accept the serpent's reasoning, and he understood the action he took would have negative consequences.
　

"My answer is correct"
really...you know everything don't you?

it is this haughtiness that gives me a bad taste in my mouth
and it needs to be shut down because it will only fall on deaf ears... you are self defeating


that was not the question, stop averting it...
did adam know he was doing something evil by disobeying god?
the straw man was set up by the image of the god in the fairy tale you believe as fact

who takes this literally?
it is absurd, really

i am only asking a logical question about the fall of man according to the account in the genesis story
how could he have fallen if he didn't know right from wrong

if you have a problem with the question
why try to answer it, why are you here?
you are obviously taking this personally

 

[Willamena]

what does adam represent?
a child

Conscious man. Specifically, the dawn of consciousness.

 

[waitasec]

Conscious man. Specifically, the dawn of consciousness.

interesting...
but nonetheless
aware if self, aware of free will w/o knowledge of good and evil

 

[Willamena]

interesting...
but nonetheless
aware if self, aware of free will w/o knowledge of good and evil

..huh?

 

[dmgdnooc]

"My answer is correct"
really...you know everything don't you?

it is this haughtiness that gives me a bad taste in my mouth
and it needs to be shut down because it will only fall on deaf ears... you are self defeating


that was not the question, stop averting it...
did adam know he was doing something evil by disobeying god?
the straw man was set up by the image of the god in the fairy tale you believe as fact

who takes this literally?
it is absurd, really

i am only asking a logical question about the fall of man according to the account in the genesis story
how could he have fallen if he didn't know right from wrong

if you have a problem with the question
why try to answer it, why are you here?
you are obviously taking this personally

I am not dodging the question, I have answered it once in #0550 and then again in #0568.
I give it again; Yes is the answer.
Yes is the answer that you are dodging.
　
And this is how you react to the answer.
You say it is absurd and repeat your original assertion.
　
My problem is not with the question.
My problem stems from your inability to accept or even acknowledge the answer.
With your ignoring of the answer and repeating your original assertion.
　
I don't take it personally.
My fret is for what your actions say about you.

 

[waitasec]

interesting...
but nonetheless
aware if self, aware of free will w/o knowledge of good and evil

..huh?

sorry
typo
aware of self
funny how 1 letter can change the meaning of things
from illogical to logical

 

[waitasec]

I am not dodging the question, I have answered it once in #0550 and then again in #0568.
I give it again; Yes is the answer.
Yes is the answer that you are dodging.
　
And this is how you react to the answer.
You say it is absurd and repeat your original assertion.
　
My problem is not with the question.
My problem stems from your inability to accept or even acknowledge the answer.
With your ignoring of the answer and repeating your original assertion.
　
I don't take it personally.
My fret is for what your actions say about you.

so if i understand you correctly,
adam KNEW he was doing something EVIL by disobeying BEFORE he ate the forbidden fruit of KNOWLEDGE OF GODD AND EVIL

did i get that right?
ok, then
"My fret is for what your actions say about you."

sorry if you find my typing is so offensive
just be glad you're not "thief"

 

[dmgdnooc]

so if i understand you correctly,
adam KNEW he was doing something EVIL by disobeying BEFORE he ate the forbidden fruit of KNOWLEDGE OF GODD AND EVIL

did i get that right?
ok, then
"My fret is for what your actions say about you."

sorry if you find my typing is so offensive
just be glad you're not "thief"

Yes.
Adam knew that he was doing evil when he ate; he was not deceived when he ate.
Eating gave him experiential knowledge of evil.
Previously he had only intellectual, or theoretical, knowledge of evil by being able to reason from his experiential knowledge of good.

 

[it's_sam]

Yes.
Adam knew that he was doing evil when he ate; he was not deceived when he ate.
Eating gave him experiential knowledge of evil.
Previously he had only intellectual, or theoretical, knowledge of evil by being able to reason from his experiential knowledge of good.

Very well put!

 

[waitasec]

Yes.
Adam knew that he was doing evil when he ate; he was not deceived when he ate.
Eating gave him experiential knowledge of evil.
Previously he had only intellectual, or theoretical, knowledge of evil by being able to reason from his experiential knowledge of good.

being deceived has nothing to do with the question, does it

we are talking about adams awareness of good and evil and you say he was aware of it but did not KNOW it
he experienced the awareness of evil without the knowledge of it

well, how is someone to be aware of something if they are not knowledgeable of it's existence in the first place

and he was good in his awareness without the knowledge of being good?

very confusing...

 

[dmgdnooc]

being deceived has nothing to do with the question, does it

we are talking about adams awareness of good and evil and you say he was aware of it but did not KNOW it
he experienced the awareness of evil without the knowledge of it

well, how is someone to be aware of something if they are not knowledgeable of it's existence in the first place

and he was he good in his awareness without the knowledge of being good?

very confusing...

The idea is not confusing to me.
I have been through the process many times and I understand it to be a normal part of the human condition.
　
An unmarried virgin may understand sex and marriage in a theoretical or intellectual manner.
But wait and see how their understanding changes when they actually marry, when they have experience of what they previously only knew by inference.
　
Examples of the difference could be multiplied, if it would help.

 

[waitasec]

The idea is not confusing to me.
I have been through the process many times and I understand it to be a normal part of the human condition.
　
An unmarried virgin may understand sex and marriage in a theoretical or intellectual manner.
But wait and see how their understanding changes when they actually marry, when they have experience of what they previously only knew by inference.
　
Examples of the difference could be multiplied, if it would help.

just because you have a boat doesn't mean you have access to an ocean

knowledge of good and evil
is knowing what good and evil means

 

[dmgdnooc]

Sorry hasty reply, missed this.
Adam was aware of the existence, or potential, of evil, the tree was there in the garden and its name included the concept of evil.
He must have known what the word meant or the tree's name would have been gobbldy gook to him.
　
I don't understand your question 'and he was he good ....?
　

 

[waitasec]

Sorry hasty reply, missed this.
Adam was aware of the existence, or potential, of evil, the tree was there in the garden and its name included the concept of evil.
He must have known what the word meant or the tree's name would have been gobbldy gook to him.
　
I don't understand your question 'and he was he good ....?
　

you are a genius :bow:
it was the tree of gobbidy gook to him

how could he be aware of the existence of evil and good if he didn't UNDERSTAND it

he was aware of the existence of the gobbidy gook tree but didn't know what it meant

sorry typo, i fixed it
he was good without being aware of the knowledge of it?