The fall of man; Free will

[it's_sam]

because you're trying to make an intellectual argument for god, saying god is not sexist and so forth, when really the evidence is completely stacked against you and you still have no logical argument as to what your evidence is based on, and you have no real argument as to why god even exists or how etc.

How can so many "mistakes" about gods sexism be in the bible?

Hey buddy the evidence may be stacked for you but it isnt for us. He may be sexist to you but he isnt to us. You only want to see word as infallible and uncontested when no practicer thinks that way. You are wanting an argument where there is NONE to be had. You are shooting in a barrel of stars and you dont even know what your aiming for. Our logical argument is he IS logic, he IS knowledge, HE just plain and simple is ALL that is good, as satan would be the oppisate and prophesied to be destroyed because of this mark. Were saying if he wasnt in the picture we would still be running around bashing skulls with rocks, and only concerned with what are hands hold at that time as far as what we need. The sexism in the bible was NO mistake those men lived in that way and it is ONLY in a few scriptures as Jlm03 said MANY women were revered in scripture as well. You are seeing what you want to see to hold onto your point "whatever that is". We have offered our proof as far as we see it, what more do you want? The bible is a book and a really old one, go to the middle-east and you will see where the sexism came from.

 

[Blackdog22]

I don't see where anyone gets off making the crass statement that they know anything about god, or that god is infallible, or that god knows all, or doesn't make mistakes, so on and so forth.

HOW DO YOU KNOW? WHAT PROOF DO YOU HAVE TO SHOW THAT YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT GOD? You don't even really know he exists, how can you possibly give him any attributes? And then after doing so, CLAIM that he is beyond logic?

You can't give him properties based on logic and then say he is "beyond" logic, to be beyond logic is to be not just beyond human understanding but beyond human intellect, to the point that you would not even know that there is a god, let alone able to define him.

Lol, So, so true. I cannot count how many times I have had arguments with Christians who claim to understand so many characteristics of God, but then when I make a point that cannot be refuted and would simply imply that no God exists. Suddenly God is unknowable, and mysterious, and we know nothing about him.

JML03, the point he is trying to make is you can't know something and not know something at the same time. Your logically inconsistent, and it is hurting your arguments.

 

[jml03]

Anna - you take too much literally. I gave you examples, you give me examples. We can keep going, but why? Am I going to change your mind, no. Are you mine, no.

1, God did give me my husband,He gave me my children, He gave me life - He knew me before I was anyone.
2, Killing a bunch of innocent babies - I don't understand why it is like that, but, I assume you are talking of when the Hebrews were in bondage to Pharaoh, well - the way I believe that it was better for them to go as babies, because they will forever reign in Heaven - than had they grown up to worship idols and perish. You see, children go to Heaven, no matter what - but it doesn't work like that for adults.
3, Being silent under the man - no, that's not what it means to me
4, Multiply sorrow....bring forth children - I love that. To me, out of our pain we get the greatest gift: children. What a gift, the way I see it, was given to Eve and us from that point on.
5, Husband shall rule over thee - if your husband is where he should be as the spiritual head of your house, there is nothing wrong with that. I do not live in bondage. I speak my mind, I make valuable decisions, I co-own our business, homes, cars. What it means to me is he is ultimately responsible to take care of me and my children and in that sense, he is the ruler of my house.
6, Corinthians and Ephesians were letters written to churches. They are meant to correct or approve of actions that were occurring there at that time. They are not meant for all.
7, Submit to your husbands - ok, as long as he is where he should be as the spiritual head of my house.

Now I have to say I will research more into the Timothy scriptures, other than that, there's nothing wrong with what I read as I interpret it.

 

[jml03]

because you're trying to make an intellectual argument for god, saying god is not sexist and so forth, when really the evidence is completely stacked against you and you still have no logical argument as to what your evidence is based on, and you have no real argument as to why god even exists or how etc.

How can so many "mistakes" about gods sexism be in the bible?

Since I assume you read your bible lots, here's one "Cast not your pearls before the swine" At first glance you might think this is literal. Don't give your pearls to pigs or they will eat them. But it can also be interpreted as don't give your best to someone who is just going to gobble it up and make crap out of it.

 

[it's_sam]

JML03, the point he is trying to make is you can't know something and not know something at the same time. Your logically inconsistent, and it is hurting your arguments.

We know, but because you dont it is a mystery but ONLY to you. The only inconcistancy is that some have come to believe and some havnt. Your just not happy with how the content transfers.

 

[Blackdog22]

Hey buddy the evidence may be stacked for you but it isnt for us. He may be sexist to you but he isnt to us. You only want to see word as infallible and uncontested when no practicer thinks that way. You are wanting an argument where there is NONE to be had. You are shooting in a barrel of stars and you dont even know what your aiming for. Our logical argument is he IS logic, he IS knowledge, HE just plain and simple is ALL that is good, as satan would be the oppisate and prophesied to be destroyed because of this mark. Were saying if he wasnt in the picture we would still be running around bashing skulls with rocks, and only concerned with what are hands hold at that time as far as what we need. The sexism in the bible was NO mistake those men lived in that way and it is ONLY in a few scriptures as Jlm03 said MANY women were revered in scripture as well. You are seeing what you want to see to hold onto your point "whatever that is". We have offered our proof as far as we see it, what more do you want? The bible is a book and a really old one, go to the middle-east and you will see where the sexism came from.

Just in Genesis.

After Judah pays Tamar for her services, he is told that she "played the harlot" and "is with child by whoredom." When Judah hears this, he says, "Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." 38:24

Esau "takes" two wives. 26:34

Esau, who already had two wives (26:34), "takes" another. 28:9


So you agree that a man can have multiple wives, but if a woman has more than 1 husband she is to be burned at the stake? He is sexist to us because we read your book and take it for what it is. You either stopped reading ,or you just simply do not understand your book, or you overlook the multiple scenarios of sexism.

If the Bible is even sexist ONCE. Then it is sexist. If I murder someone ONCE I am a murderer. This is very simple logic. I don't mean this in a rude way.

The middle East is sexist because of verses like the above that are rampant throughout the Bible. 2 revered women doesn't suddenly make it non sexist.

 

[jml03]

You may have a point Blackdog. It's just hard to not put labels on things & at the same time explain things which cannot be explained without them.

 

[AnnaTheBeast]

Why dont you take the rules of the bible literally?
The bible is the bible, it says what it means, if you change them they become redundant. It doesnt matter what YOU make of them your twisiting them, they are no longer true.

Makes the bible void, because you might as well make your own rules.

 

[it's_sam]

So you agree that a man can have multiple wives, but if a woman has more than 1 husband she is to be burned at the stake? He is sexist to us because we read your book and take it for what it is. You either stopped reading ,or you just simply do not understand your book, or you overlook the multiple scenarios of sexism.

Mormons are real and I continualy refute them! The evil IS in mans heart its no big surprise to us. Its alive and well and allways has been. Believers noticed its taint and how it had grabbed us. We fight for ourselves and we use ourselves to help our brothers fight.

 

[it's_sam]

Oh muslims can have more then one wife as well.

 

[AnnaTheBeast]

Hey buddy the evidence may be stacked for you but it isnt for us. He may be sexist to you but he isnt to us. You only want to see word as infallible and uncontested when no practicer thinks that way. You are wanting an argument where there is NONE to be had. You are shooting in a barrel of stars and you dont even know what your aiming for. Our logical argument is he IS logic, he IS knowledge, HE just plain and simple is ALL that is good, as satan would be the oppisate and prophesied to be destroyed because of this mark. Were saying if he wasnt in the picture we would still be running around bashing skulls with rocks, and only concerned with what are hands hold at that time as far as what we need. The sexism in the bible was NO mistake those men lived in that way and it is ONLY in a few scriptures as Jlm03 said MANY women were revered in scripture as well. You are seeing what you want to see to hold onto your point "whatever that is". We have offered our proof as far as we see it, what more do you want? The bible is a book and a really old one, go to the middle-east and you will see where the sexism came from.

There is so much argument to be had with EVERYTHING the bible says. Its a book of contridictions and murder. HOW is god all that is good. Am I bad? God isnt within me, not one with my mind, or body. Am I of satan? He didnt give us civilisation. Man made their own civilisation, and made their own everything, god didnt come to them and tell them what to do, how to do it and give them things. I'm not concerned with what my hand holds, I'm not concerned with material things BECAUSE I as a PERSON know what I need and dont need, god didnt tell me that. Just because it is in a few scriptures doesnt make it not there? If it makes sexist remarks even once that is what it is. We dont ignore parts of the bible the way you do, we go over all of the bible, and that is why we dont enter these arguments blindly. You cant see only part of something and be logical, we are logical. EXACTLY. THE BIBLE IS A BOOK. NOTHING MORE.
Proof isn't proof if you cant touch it, or see it. The only PROOF you have of god is a little black book , that has a story written years and years after jesus and the apostals were LONG gone.

 

[it's_sam]

It drives me nuts when I see the so called "mother in law" houses in backs of the main house. But even in these religions it is still faught BECAUSE MEN WANT IT!!! God didnt MAKE them choose what they chose it was their choice, their will.

 

[it's_sam]

There is so much argument to be had with EVERYTHING the bible says. Its a book of contridictions and murder. HOW is god all that is good. Am I bad? God isnt within me, not one with my mind, or body. Am I of satan? He didnt give us civilisation. Man made their own civilisation, and made their own everything, god didnt come to them and tell them what to do, how to do it and give them things. I'm not concerned with what my hand holds, I'm not concerned with material things BECAUSE I as a PERSON know what I need and dont need, god didnt tell me that. Just because it is in a few scriptures doesnt make it not there? If it makes sexist remarks even once that is what it is. We dont ignore parts of the bible the way you do, we go over all of the bible, and that is why we dont enter these arguments blindly. You cant see only part of something and be logical, we are logical. EXACTLY. THE BIBLE IS A BOOK. NOTHING MORE.
Proof isn't proof if you cant touch it, or see it. The only PROOF you have of god is a little black book , that has a story written years and years after jesus and the apostals were LONG gone.

Ive found he is whatever YOU make him out to be GL with your outcome.

 

[Blackdog22]

Sam, the verses I mentioned did you not read them? I am not speaking of the Mormons or Muslims I am quoting the Bible. The Book that your God is based off of. The only real way anyone can understand anything about him is through that book and it seems to be fine with having multiple wives.

Ive found he is whatever YOU make him out to be GL with your outcome.

Then you don't follow the Bible? If God is whoever anyone wants him to be then he is no different than someones imaginary friend. That is exactly the way imaginary friends work. I don't mean this harshly, so don't take it like that. I too used to be a Christian. It was when I was challenged to read the Bible that I began to lose my faith. My questions led to more questions. I ended up browsing Christian forums and came upon arguments against my beliefs. I realized that I couldn't sweep what I had read under the rug. I realized that me as a person could not follow the rules portrayed in the Bible. I could not ever consider murder okay, nor slavery, nor sexism. The things that are in there nearly made me cry because of how wicked it was, and the good guy that God had been told to me wasn't at all like the stories at Church.

 

[it's_sam]

BTW i didnt use a little black book to find my connection in God. If i was forced to say what religion i used to find his mind I guess I would say its more close to native american beliefs. But because I asociate myself with scripture and God you assume im blinded by the light or something. Get off it man. You dont know me, and you dont know him its obvious. I wish you the best on your journey, I hope you find what you seek because I want all our minds to be at peace like I have found. Wich says alot with all the crap swirling around in there.

 

[AnnaTheBeast]

BTW i didnt use a little black book to find my connection in God. If i was forced to say what religion i used to find his mind I guess I would say its more close to native american beliefs. But because I asociate myself with scripture and God you assume im blinded by the light or something. Get off it man. You dont know me, and you dont know him its obvious. I wish you the best on your journey, I hope you find what you seek because I want all our minds to be at peace like I have found. Wich says alot with all the crap swirling around in there.

I apologize if I offended you, I dont know you, this is true, but I also assumed your christian, and the teachings of christian is from a little black book is all I meant.

 

[it's_sam]

Sam, the verses I mentioned did you not read them? I am not speaking of the Mormons or Muslims I am quoting the Bible. The Book that your God is based off of. The only real way anyone can understand anything about him is through that book and it seems to be fine with having multiple wives.

Look at the times man things were WAY different back then. Some women were revered but most held affirm to the man being alpha. Christianity was fighting this AT THE TIME. It was dilluded because it wasnt set yet, the leaders enforced it, and the law protected it.

 

[EtuMalku]

Quite a long thread, I'll just reply to the OP:

According to the Judeo/Christian belief, Adam KNOWINGLY made the EVIL decision by disobeying God. But how? He hadn't eaten the forbidden fruit as of yet, which comes from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So there was no way for him to understand disobedience was evil, was there? He was in a perpetual state of innocence. By innocently partaking of the forbidden fruit his eyes were then opened. The only way this would make sense is if freedom of will is an evil in the eyes of the god in the bible (Adam was told not to eat it, but how can god expect for Adam to understand the implication since he had no prior knowledge disobedience was evil). God also took freedom away from the woman and subjected her to mans rule. Genesis 3:16. Remember, all was good before the opportunity of choice was established.

What may be of interest to some here are excerpts from the Gospels that were purposely left out from the final printing of the ‘book'

The Fall represents mankind and nature's fall into materialism. This metaphorical Fall shields us from the spiritual world and opens an Abyss between Man and the Divine. The reason behind the Fall is man's search for knowledge and forces that originally were not meant for him to acquire.

Here we see that God is actually the villain, and the Serpent (Lucifer) the holy one

-from the Gospels of Nag Hammadi: Testimonial of Truth
"the God whom most Christians worship, the God of the Hebrew Bible, is 'himself' one of the fallen angels, from whose tyranny Christ came to set human beings free.

-from the Gospels of Nag Hammadi: Reality of Rulers
"It is this God that commanded Adam not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge, which could open his eyes to the Truth. When Adam & Eve, enlightened by the feminine spiritual principle who appeared to her in the form of the Serpent and deified them."

The Serpent in the Garden of Eden pointing out to Eve that God is a liar and you will not die if you eat of the fruit of knowledge, which she did and did not die. Lucifer (Serpent) brought us the Truth and our Free Will, showed us the way to either be One with God or to be a God ourselves.

The power that authority delights in exercising is the power of imposing its Will on others. The opposition to this authoritarian Will is the individual fount of creativity and unpredictability. In psychology, this fount is called the unconscious mind, the obscure and unseen intelligence which motivates us all to seek our own paths. The unconscious mind, the dark side of the psyche, is the symbolic meaning of the mythical underworld or "Hell." Tyrants (God) are right to fear this deep well of power and to frighten their subjects away from it.

Dogma is also a trap which can lead towards spiritual stagnation. Growth is necessary through the freedom of an open being that through will power and focus can change take hold and run its natural course.


Ir Shti Shta-tu
EM

 

[it's_sam]

Quite a long thread, I'll just reply to the OP:

Good timing I think HAHA thank you much for the add-on I enjoyed it.

 

[Blackdog22]

BTW i didnt use a little black book to find my connection in God. If i was forced to say what religion i used to find his mind I guess I would say its more close to native american beliefs. But because I asociate myself with scripture and God you assume im blinded by the light or something. Get off it man. You dont know me, and you dont know him its obvious. I wish you the best on your journey, I hope you find what you seek because I want all our minds to be at peace like I have found. Wich says alot with all the crap swirling around in there.

I am glad that you have found peace Sam. You are one of the few Christians I have seen that doesn't follow the Bible. It was an honest mistake. So does your God line up with any of the beliefs that any religions have or is it something entirely different?

I ask this purely out of curiosity. If someone comes to a God without any influence of Books or scripture they may have something that deserves discussing.