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The fallacy of Jesus dying for our sins (By Shabir Ally)

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
1) No. The common person would've spoken Aramaic and Greek. Some of those would have understood Hebrew and/or Latin. Again, these were the languages of that region. If you didn't understand one of these languages, someone you knew did. Not to mention that teaching was common bridge. Someone stood up and read/translated.
The majority of scholars in the field say Jesus and his followers definitely would have spoken Aramaic, and may have spoken Greek. Though Greek was introduced to the Roman province of Iudea around 6CE, the province did not include Galilee (where Jesus and his followers were said to have spent most of their time), so there is no definitive proof that the people of that the peopl of that area had a good understanding of the Greek language during the supposed lifetime of Jesus.

2) A list of reasons that have since been shown insupportable and illogical.. By both you and I.
Again, seeing as the majority of Biblical scholars agree with my opinion, I'd say it has a pretty solid support base.

3) 3+ years of events. Everybody saw everything? Check your consensus, maybe they can help.
Nobody saw anything, according to the vast majority of people who make it their life's work to study the Bible... Nitpicking who saw what is your responsibility if you wish to prove the Gospels were eyewitness accounts.
4) God saves.. God with us. Sounds about right.
Again, no idea what you're getting at... According to the Gospels, Jesus never performed miracles in his own name, and instructed his apostles not to tell anyone he was the Messiah.
 
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Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
The majority of scholars in the field say Jesus and his followers definitely would have spoken Aramaic, and may have spoken Greek. Though Greek was introduced to the Roman province of Iudea around 6CE, the province did not include Galilee (where Jesus and his followers were said to have spent most of their time), so there is no definitive proof that the people of that the peopl of that area had a good understanding of the Greek language during the supposed lifetime of Jesus.


Again, seeing as the majority of Biblical scholars agree with my opinion, I'd say it has a pretty solid support base.


Nobody saw anything, according to the vast majority of people who make it their life's work to study the Bible... Nitpicking who saw what is your responsibility if you wish to prove the Gospels were eyewitness accounts.

Again, no idea what you're getting at... According to the Gospels, Jesus never performed miracles in his own name, and instructed his apostles not to tell anyone he was the Messiah.

Probably because as soon as He did... They killed him. Timing would be important. Good luck with all that.

Thanks, friend. I'm done. You study the facts logically? If you say you do, that's good enough. No point in holding your hand.
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
Probably because as soon as He did... They killed him. Timing would be important. Good luck with all that.

Thanks, friend. I'm done. You study the facts logically? If you say you do, that's good enough. No point in holding your hand.

Yes, I do, and studying the facts logically leads to the conclusion that the Gospels weren't written by eyewitnesses. While many people would agree that the Gospels are based on eyewitness testimony (not the opinion I hold, but that's irrelevant), I have yet to hear anyone but you claim that the authors themselves were eyewitnesses.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
List of book-burning incidents - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You say it's not historical, but provide no alternative history from that time?
I'm not a historian. I don't know the specific history. However there are scholars that devote quite a bit of time and energy to the study of this timeframe. They would be better equip to answer you.

Secondly, the bible would not somehow become more true if no other tests are found. Even if we knew NOTHING of the time period and it was a total mystery other than the bible it would still not make it correct. Basic events that were known to be fact perhaps but nothing specifically on the miracles Jesus preformed.

If all of german literature was destroyed and all that was left was the Grimm's fairy tails would that make the Grimm's fairy tails the undefied truth of the period?
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
I'm not a historian. I don't know the specific history. However there are scholars that devote quite a bit of time and energy to the study of this timeframe. They would be better equip to answer you.

Secondly, the bible would not somehow become more true if no other tests are found. Even if we knew NOTHING of the time period and it was a total mystery other than the bible it would still not make it correct. Basic events that were known to be fact perhaps but nothing specifically on the miracles Jesus preformed.

If all of german literature was destroyed and all that was left was the Grimm's fairy tails would that make the Grimm's fairy tails the undefied truth of the period?

I'm not of the mindset that the only surviving history of that time period is the Gospels. It was a test; a genuine question. I'm curious. Where are the other testimonies from that time? Either they were destroyed, or lost, which should cast significant doubt on the Gospel's original formation being decades later (also considering that scholars somehow agree there were earlier sources).. Or, those who deny the Gospel's accuracy should be able to point toward contrasting testimony from that time.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
I'm not of the mindset that the only surviving history of that time period is the Gospels. It was a test; a genuine question. I'm curious. Where are the other testimonies from that time? Either they were destroyed, or lost, which should cast significant doubt on the Gospel's original formation being decades later (also considering that scholars somehow agree there were earlier sources).. Or, those who deny the Gospel's accuracy should be able to point toward contrasting testimony from that time.
I can cast shadows of doubt on the claim that someone walked on water, turned water into wine, ressurected people, was ressurected himself and then flew into the sky on a cloud.

Okay general knowledge allows me to require a lot of convincing evidence for that. Could Jesus have existed? I don't think I've ever argued from a point that difinitivly said he didn't. I am actually in the group of Atheists that tend to think he did exist but not in the sense that the Christians and Muslims think.

But if you'd like a contrasting testimony about what happened to Jesus and you don't require it to be historical all one need to is look to the only other Religion that thinks of Jesus as sacred and holy. That would be Islam and the Quran. The Quran goes into deep detail of Jesus but their accounts are very very different. What would make their accounts any less convincing than the Biblical?

On a side note I'll do some research on the remaining historical evidence of the timeperiod. But again I would like to say that the less information to substanciate the bible the more that works AGAINST the credibility of the bible. Its not a last man standing battle but a battle to find information that matches biblical accounts.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
I can cast shadows of doubt on the claim that someone walked on water, turned water into wine, ressurected people, was ressurected himself and then flew into the sky on a cloud.

Okay general knowledge allows me to require a lot of convincing evidence for that. Could Jesus have existed? I don't think I've ever argued from a point that difinitivly said he didn't. I am actually in the group of Atheists that tend to think he did exist but not in the sense that the Christians and Muslims think.

But if you'd like a contrasting testimony about what happened to Jesus and you don't require it to be historical all one need to is look to the only other Religion that thinks of Jesus as sacred and holy. That would be Islam and the Quran. The Quran goes into deep detail of Jesus but their accounts are very very different. What would make their accounts any less convincing than the Biblical?

On a side note I'll do some research on the remaining historical evidence of the timeperiod. But again I would like to say that the less information to substanciate the bible the more that works AGAINST the credibility of the bible. Its not a last man standing battle but a battle to find information that matches biblical accounts.

1) Why can you cast doubt onto those things?

2) Where does your opinion of Jesus' history originate? Explain it for me.

3) What is the Quran's dating in relation to the time period in question? And where did it originate in relation to the region in question?

4) I'm interested in what you'll find.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
1) Why can you cast doubt onto those things?

2) Where does your opinion of Jesus' history originate? Explain it for me.

3) What is the Quran's dating in relation to the time period in question? And where did it originate in relation to the region in question?

4) I'm interested in what you'll find.
1) Because they are extrodinary claims that aren't upheld with evidence but rather told to be taken at face value? Don't take offense. I don't believe in big fish stories either.

2) There seems to be some reference to Jesus in some historical text other than the bible. Its very very very vague and it requires a lot of historical education to decipher it. However at the same time the case that Jesus was a person does make sense that his legend could grow so quickly and create a religion. Someone started the notion of christianity and it seems logical that Jesus was the creator. However both Muahmid and Joseph Smith are real people. I don't believe their claims either.

3) I'll have to look it up but don't bet on the dating references to be in favor to your Biblical accounts. And the actual timeframe without alternative substansiative texts to uphold the biblical version the actual timeframe of the written accounts don't necessarily hold any specific leverage for truth.

4) At work so I will have to get back to you on these things later.
 

Britedream

Active Member
in order to accept that God has three entities, we have to denounce that all the previous prophets; including Ibraham, Moses, ect ..,know God, and defy reasoning. so we can't combine contraditing terms or words. by saying his is God and at the same time is human, you are infact saying he is unlimted and limited at the same time, this is not possible, exactly as saying the man is tall and he is short at the same time in reality. likewise, if someone says Jasus (pbuh) is true and complete God on earth, And there is another on above is complete God, but there are not two, then that someone must rethink his reasoning.God has given us a brain to think, and if what you tell us is not possible, it must be false.
 

Thruve

Sheppard for the Die Hard
Most of you bigots are forgetting the bigger picture.. Touche.
So, this whole thread doesn't surprise me.
Moving along..
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
2) There seems to be some reference to Jesus in some historical text other than the bible. Its very very very vague and it requires a lot of historical education to decipher it. However at the same time the case that Jesus was a person does make sense that his legend could grow so quickly and create a religion. Someone started the notion of christianity and it seems logical that Jesus was the creator. However both Muahmid and Joseph Smith are real people. I don't believe their claims either.

Which raises interesting questions in of itself.

Was he just some bloke whose identity religious scribes hijacked for their own purposes?

Did he claim to be the son of god and, in so doing, register himself a fraud and a charlatan?

Was he executed for being such a fraud?

Was he a revolutionary who was executed for treason against the Roman Empire?


Whatever the case. I don't believe that a fictional being cannot tell me that I am a sinner.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
.........Jesus being the sacrifice for mankind.

The death of Jesus to me is one of the most cruel acts one can do. To send your son and die for the sins of your previous children which were a result of the parent is truly one of the most illogical and absurd stories I have heard of.

What are your opinions on Jesus'es dying for mankind's sins?

Cross is the symbol/myth of cruelty inflicted by the Christian-God-The-Father on innocent Jesus for nothing; it is One-True-God's grace that He heard the prayers of Jesus ( not a god but son of Mary) in the garden and right on the Cross and saved Jesus from a cursed death on Cross.

Jesus did no die on the Cross; so the Christians beware; they shall have to suffer for their sins if they don't repent, ask for forgiveness from the One-True-God and resolve not to sin anymore as per Torah which Jesus believed in being a Jew.

No disrespect intended to anybody. I have just mentioned what I sincerely believe. Others could differ with me, of course, with reasonable arguments or with blind-faith.

Regards
 

Thruve

Sheppard for the Die Hard
I will play your silly little game.


What "bigger picture" are the bigots forgetting?

Not just forgetting, but lack to see.
Ask anyone who will admit they love Jesus. To some, to me, it doesn't matter if Jesus existed, or whether there's proof if he was crucified on terms described in the NT or not. If proof points against all of it, it does not matter. It does not matter. What it stands for, what it symbolically represents, to say the very least, to so many of us, is something so simple that it applies to our everyday lives and everyone in it. Barely anyone sees how, and perhaps that is the point. Naturally, perhaps it was intended to be this way. However I assure you, when your time comes where you find yourself psychologically trapped between desperation for something you desire so greatly and needing to let go, when you become so guilty of a specific decision or choice that greatly affected the life/lives of others, namely your children, when you, in your last moments of life, begin to pray realizing the fact that there literally.. may not be anything beyond the fearsome moments of your death, when you come to the conclusion that people do, indeed, get away with murder, adultery, envy, etc, and don't pay the price for the suffering they've caused or inflicted, often with the potential of causing a butterfly effect, and so much more.. You'll understand the importance, and in the least the possibility, that everything you've done in your pathetic life was forgiven by the mere chance that the story of Jesus was as real as the last moments of breathe you breathe. The beauty of it, in the meantime, is disgraced by a bunch of biggots. A bunch of biggots who, though think outside of the box of religion, can't think beyond the box that lies right after. Get that stupid bug off your screen, before I smack you and everyother biggot, cause Im sick of swatting my screen thinking that craps real lol

Too many atheist retards here have so much angst over Christianity, and religion in general. I do apologize that retarded christians, who cant think beyond the doctrines taught by their retarded pastors, have affected your personal lives in such a way that you forever condemn Christians, Jews, etc, to that of idiocy. It disgusts me that a few select atheists here have an agenda to dislodge Christian ideology, reform it, and/or dismantle it without thinking that possibly, just possibly, like a prophet telling a species what they need to hear, versus what they want to hear, that there's a purpose of religion in this life, regardless of how one feels about it, or how it challenged them in their younger years with retarded, foolish parents who were simply blinded by stupidity that they let it affect their children in a way that caused them, like many of you atheists, to very much discredit what Christianity has done for far more people than the few of you to which it apparently traumatized.

You retards act like Jews and Christians (of all denominations) don't question their faith, whats real, what isn't, whats truth, and whats a lie. What their faith has done, on the other hand, regardless of their struggles being that faith is one of the HARDEST things to adhere to in this day and age, was open their eyes in the very least, to seeing the world in a way that is remarkably beautiful, regardless if in the end they hold the words in the bible to be literal or not. I surely dont take the bible literally, but more metaphorically. What I've learned, as a Christian, is to find the grey area among'st all the black and white both retarded christians and retarded atheists present before me. I've also learned that every religion is so similar.. that no matter how I look at it, it only points up ^

Now, I understand the many reasons why many Atheists don't adhere to a religion, and I don't blame them. In the meantime, this angst, and qualities of atheists I've explained in detail above ^ is getting to the point where all I can feel is pity for them.
 
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McBell

Unbound
Not just forgetting, but lack to see.
Ask anyone who will admit they love Jesus. To some, to me, it doesn't matter if Jesus existed, or whether there's proof if he was crucified on terms described in the NT or not. If proof points against all of it, it does not matter. It does not matter. What it stands for, what it symbolically represents, to say the very least, to so many of us, is something so simple that it applies to our everyday lives and everyone in it. Barely anyone sees how, and perhaps that is the point. Naturally, perhaps it was intended to be this way. However I assure you, when your time comes where you find yourself psychologically trapped between desperation for something you desire so greatly and needing to let go, when you become so guilty of a specific decision or choice that greatly affected the life/lives of others, namely your children, when you, in your last moments of life, begin to pray realizing the fact that there literally.. may not be anything beyond the fearsome moments of your death, when you come to the conclusion that people do, indeed, get away with murder, adultery, envy, etc, and don't pay the price for the suffering they've caused or inflicted, often with the potential of causing a butterfly effect, and so much more.. You'll understand the importance, and in the least the possibility, that everything you've done in your pathetic life was forgiven by the mere chance that the story of Jesus was as real as the last moments of breathe you breathe. The beauty of it, in the meantime, is disgraced by a bunch of biggots. Get that stupid bug off your screen, before I smack you and everyother biggot, cause im sick of swatting my screen thinking that craps real lol

Pascals Wager is not a convincing argument regardless of how well you butter it up.
 

Thruve

Sheppard for the Die Hard
Pascals Wager is not a convincing argument regardless of how well you butter it up.

Unfortunately, Im not concerned on whether God exists or not, thats not the point of my life. I think that's the concern of most atheists, however. Glad my argument went way over your head, touche! Now be gone biggot <3
 

AHJE

New Member
[youtube]B4kKoV_uDts[/youtube]

This is a short 5 minute clip but it explains the major issues in the concept of Jesus being the sacrifice for mankind.

The death of Jesus to me is one of the most cruel acts one can do. To send your son and die for the sins of your previous children which were a result of the parent is truly one of the most illogical and absurd stories I have heard of.

What are your opinions on Jesus'es dying for mankind's sins?

Jesus truly died and He did so for our sins.

Are you saying that bad things don't afflict good people?
 

McBell

Unbound
Unfortunately, Im not concerned on whether God exists or not, thats not the point of my life. I think that's the concern of most atheists, however. Glad my argument went way over your head, touche! Now be gone biggot <3

You do not seem to have a very good grasp of the English language.
 
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