The fallacy of Jesus dying for our sins (By Shabir Ally)

[Sleeppy]

[youtube]B4kKoV_uDts[/youtube]

This is a short 5 minute clip but it explains the major issues in the concept of Jesus being the sacrifice for mankind.

The death of Jesus to me is one of the most cruel acts one can do. To send your son and die for the sins of your previous children which were a result of the parent is truly one of the most illogical and absurd stories I have heard of.

What are your opinions on Jesus'es dying for mankind's sins?

Muslims like you claim they disapprove of the core theology-- but, at the same time will still send themselves to be killed in suicide missions, or other war efforts, to defend their loved ones, and to defend Allah's commands. The ideas only seem different according to what religion and society teaches them.

 

[Password]

What are your opinions on Jesus'es dying for mankind's sins?

That Jesus was the Logos in the flesh, which by having an understanding of this knowledge He is equal to Gods voice. This is the very foundational aspect that is lacking by most. Jesus dying is Gods own Word being displayed in physical form in a spiritual reflective illustration for God forgiving mankind and allowing us to sacrifice through Him, instead of animals, with a word. "Forgive them Father for they no not what they do". And understanding also that Gods Word(Jesus) is the "tree of life" that we must also take and eat(study/meditate) that we may live, having longevity for a life here and more abundantly towards God Himself eternally.*
Gods display of action at the cross is love. An example to which we can understand to be more like Him on more than one level. The totality for man in the image of God is found only through the ways(proper thoughts, words, workings) of God. Its at the cross where we first see the light. We then witness for the light and struggle to maintain its design for us. When we place and confess our shortcomings on Christ, which is doing our part as He suggested for us to do, we are able to achieve a better life more easily through the access of this greater design intended for us.*

 

[idav]

That Jesus was the Logos in the flesh, which by having an understanding of this knowledge He is equal to Gods voice. This is the very foundational aspect that is lacking by most. Jesus dying is Gods own Word being displayed in physical form in a spiritual reflective illustration for God forgiving mankind and allowing us to sacrifice through Him, instead of animals, with a word. "Forgive them Father for they no not what they do". And understanding also that Gods Word(Jesus) is the "tree of life" that we must also take and eat(study/meditate) that we may live, having longevity for a life here and more abundantly towards God Himself eternally.*
Gods display of action at the cross is love. An example to which we can understand to be more like Him on more than one level. The totality for man in the image of God is found only through the ways(proper thoughts, words, workings) of God. Its at the cross where we first see the light. We then witness for the light and struggle to maintain its design for us. When we place and confess our shortcomings on Christ, which is doing our part as He suggested for us to do, we are able to achieve a better life more easily through the access of this greater design intended for us.*

Jesus certainly acted out and exemplified the parables. Which really makes Jesus an excellent parable to teach through wisdom and example. Makes me think the whole story of Jesus also to be metaphor, almost too fitting. I have to say someone had to be genius to come up with it if it isnt literal.

In the same respect a literal sacrifice is suspect. Fits better as metaphor.

 

[Password]

Jesus certainly acted out and exemplified the parables. Which really makes Jesus an excellent parable to teach through wisdom and example. Makes me think the whole story of Jesus also to be metaphor, almost too fitting. I have to say someone had to be genius to come up with it if it isnt literal.

In the same respect a literal sacrifice is suspect. Fits better as metaphor.

I suppose that the offerings of the animals in the OT were to show God who was the most devoted in some way. Preparation for the alter would tie into it as well. Reasons of sacrifice would be an important part of it. The metaphor aspects would be an inward spiritual gain for the individual or family as far as commitment, unselfishness, and thanksgiving. I'm assuming that ultimately these things were not pleasing to God after a while and thus became a foreshadowing of things to come.

 

[sojourner]

[youtube]B4kKoV_uDts[/youtube]

This is a short 5 minute clip but it explains the major issues in the concept of Jesus being the sacrifice for mankind.

The death of Jesus to me is one of the most cruel acts one can do. To send your son and die for the sins of your previous children which were a result of the parent is truly one of the most illogical and absurd stories I have heard of.

What are your opinions on Jesus'es dying for mankind's sins?

I'll tell you my opinion on a Muslim preaching about Christian theology:

He has no basis, no business, and no authority for his claims.

This argument is theologically vapid and is akin to a Christian saying, "Islam is wrong, because Muhammed is stupid."

 

[sojourner]

What about killing someone who can't die brings about forgiveness of sin?

Who are you talking about? Because Jesus did die.

 

[Britedream]

I'll tell you my opinion on a Muslim preaching about Christian theology:

He has no basis, no business, and no authority for his claims.

This argument is theologically vapid and is akin to a Christian saying, "Islam is wrong, because Muhammed is stupid."

You are infact discrediting your own religion, you can only claim your religion through the books in your hand; which not according to Jasus (pbuh), but on hear say. if discredit books for a prove, then you have no religion, if you approve the same methodlogy, then islam stands on solid ground.

 

[Britedream]

Who are you talking about? Because Jesus did die.

if you say Jesus die, God is one, and he is your God, then who brought him to life, or you are worshing a dead God.

 

[Sleeppy]

You are infact discrediting your own religion, you can only claim your religion through the books in your hand; which not according to Jasus (pbuh), but on hear say. if discredit books for a prove, then you have no religion, if you approve the same methodlogy, then islam stands on solid ground.

Any book speaking on God's behalf is hearsay.

 

[Britedream]

Any book speaking on God's behalf is hearsay.

Not really, any book inspired by God should come through his messengers.

 

[Sleeppy]

Not really, any book inspired by God should come through his messengers.

Not really? Did you personally meet any of these messengers? Did God personally speak to you? No; it is hearsay.

 

[Britedream]

Not really? Did you personally meet any of these messengers? Did God personally speak to you? No; it is hearsay.

Please don't assume your understanding is correct, goback and lookup the defintion of hearsay, you will find it to be information not adequately substantaited.
that means a rumor; not a valid base for anything.

 

[Sleeppy]

Please don't assume your understanding is correct, goback and lookup the defintion of hearsay, you will find it to be information not adequately substantaited.
that means a rumor; not a valid base for anything.

Haven't you assumed your understandings are correct? So then which of these rumors are you able to substantiate? Did God speak to you?

 

[Britedream]

Haven't you assumed your understandings are correct? So then which of these rumors are you able to substantiate? Did God speak to you?

No I have not assumed.
there are no rumors.
Yes, God speak to his creation through his messengers.

 

[Sleeppy]

No I have not assumed.
there are no rumors.
Yes, God speak to his creation through his messengers.

You are assuming. You say Christianity is the result of hearsay, but then you aren't able to admit that Islam is the result of hearsay, as well. Or do you admit that both are the result of hearsay?

 

[Sleeppy]

No I have not assumed.
there are no rumors.
Yes, God speak to his creation through his messengers.

It is rumored that Allah sent an angel named Gabriel, to speak with Muhammed. Have you assumed that this is true? How do you substantiate this?

 

[Britedream]

It is rumored that Allah sent an angel named Gabriel, to speak with Muhammed. Have you assumed that this is true? How do you substantiate this?

No it is not like that Sleeppy, you see, when God send a mssenger God gives him the prove that he what he claim to be, for example when God sent Moses to Pharoah, God gave him the prove that no one at his time can out perform, likewise, with Jasus (pbup) and Muhammed, So the burden of the prove is not on me or you, but on the one who claim to bea prophet to do that. so, the valid Question is what God have given the prophet muhammed to prove that he prophet?.

 

[Sleeppy]

No it is not like that Sleeppy, you see, when God send a mssenger God gives him the prove that he what he claim to be, for example when God sent Moses to Pharoah, God gave him the prove that no one at his time can out perform, likewise, with Jasus (pbup) and Muhammed, So the burden of the prove is not on me or you, but on the one who claim to a prophet to do that. so, the valid Question is what God have gived the prophet muhammed to prove that he prophet?.

Moses, Jesus, and Muhammed all lived thousands of years ago.. Neither of us saw any of these proofs. Hindus also have proofs that their gods and messengers are valid, but no one living today has seen them. We sit down and read the Tanakh, or the New Testament, or the Quran, and accept proofs no one has seen. This is hearsay.

 

[Britedream]

I am sure you have no problem with Moses or Jesus Peace be upon them all, so let us touch the ground on the prophet that you have a problem with; Muhammed (pbuh), if he told about the future and it unfolds as he told, if he spoke about world phenomena and later Science proved to be the case, and brought a book planed numerically in such a way that no human possibly can do, yet this book is revealed over 23 years in Random verses, then one can see the divine behind all of that.

I just hinted to you the lecture that I would like you to watch, once I am able to put the link; that is reaching my 15th post.

 

[Sleeppy]

I am sure you have no problem with Moses or Jesus Peace be upon them all, so let us touch the ground on the prophet that you have a problem with; Muhammed (pbuh), if he told about the future and it unfolds as he told, if he spoke about world phenomena and later Science proved to be the case, and brought a book planed numerically in such a way that no human possibly can do, yet this book is revealed over 23 years in Random verses, then one can see the divine behind all of that.

I just hinted to you the lecture that I would like you to watch, once I am able to put the link; that is reaching my 15th post.

I have problems with all of them (peace is given to them all).. But, prophecy isn't unique to Muhammed, or Moses, or Jesus. We have prophecies being 'fulfilled' in almost every religion. We also have world phenomena and scientific insight from many other religions, and non religious people as well. None of these have been completely accurate. We also have people who believe in Bible codes, which apparently predicted events like 9/11, the US financial collapse, and the invention of airplanes. We have tribes in Africa with knowledge of star systems millions of lightyears away, and Egyptian pyramids that confound modern architects. None of this is unique to Islam, or the Greeks, or the Mayans, or the Egyptians, or Africans, or Chinese, or Japanese, or anywhere else. So if you accept the proofs of Islam, you should also accept the proofs of every other religion and people.