The First Cause was not God.

[Runewolf1973]

I like this quote myself. Gives me some faith in Jesus. But it is not from God.

It is Thomas quoting Jesus saying what He thinks God would say, if God talked.

Tom

Interesting. Never knew that, thanks.

 

[Straw Dog]

There is in fact something behind the existence of those Fundamental Forces. That "matrix of all matter" is not God, nor is it a conscious or intelligent mind. I believe it is another naturally existing Fundamental Force or Fundamental Interaction that science just hasn't figured out yet.

I don't know about causality anymore. It's more like creativity.

Perhaps the fifth force is the harmonious interaction between the other four as they begin 'minding' each other.

 

[rusra02]

There was a First Cause. That First Cause was not something supernatural or spiritual. It was not God. It was a naturally existing force or interaction. A Fundamental Force even more fundamental than gravity or electromagnetism. Someday science will find a way to unify the four Fundamental Forces into a single, all-encompassing force. This will be the origin of the universe, the First Cause, the First Interaction.

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force..." Max Plank

There is in fact something behind the existence of those Fundamental Forces. That "matrix of all matter" is not God, nor is it a conscious or intelligent mind. I believe it is another naturally existing Fundamental Force or Fundamental Interaction that science just hasn't figured out yet.

How do you know God was not the First Cause?

 

[metis]

Here's what I believe the "First Cause" was: I don't know.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I don't know about causality anymore. It's more like creativity.

Perhaps the fifth force is the harmonious interaction between the other four as they begin 'minding' each other.

I find it more noble to simply say "I don't know." than to proclaim one has all the answers anyway. Anyone who thinks they have all the answers obviously does not have all the answers. I like your idea of the fifth force.

 

[Runewolf1973]

How do you know God was not the First Cause?

It depends what you consider to be God. If one considers the forces of nature to be God, then I don't see any problem with that.

 

[Thief]

It depends what you consider to be God. If one considers the forces of nature to be God, then I don't see any problem with that.

Someone had to be first in mind and heart (spirit).

Then the decision if that Someone came before creation.
Force before substance?

 

[Runewolf1973]

Someone had to be first in mind and heart (spirit).

Then the decision if that Someone came before creation.
Force before substance?

I don't really see much difference between force or spirit. What we think of as spirit, that which animates the body, is just the fundamental forces at work. It is natural, not supernatural.

 

[Thief]

I don't really see much difference between force or spirit. What we think of as spirit, that which animates the body, is just the fundamental forces at work. It is natural, not supernatural.

Supernatural is supposed to refer to a 'form' of living without the flesh.
If there is no life without the flesh.....
WE ARE DOOMED!.....DOOMED!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I agree with Napoleon on this one, lol...

I agree with what Laplace said to Napoleon (or was purported to have said).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There was a First Cause. That First Cause was not something supernatural or spiritual. It was not God. It was a naturally existing force or interaction. A Fundamental Force even more fundamental than gravity or electromagnetism. Someday science will find a way to unify the four Fundamental Forces into a single, all-encompassing force. This will be the origin of the universe, the First Cause, the First Interaction.

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force..." Max Plank

There is in fact something behind the existence of those Fundamental Forces. That "matrix of all matter" is not God, nor is it a conscious or intelligent mind. I believe it is another naturally existing Fundamental Force or Fundamental Interaction that science just hasn't figured out yet.

I think you point to a fundamental problem with many arguments for God: at the end of the argument, they make the logical jump from "therefore, a thing with some arcane attribute exists" to "... and we call this 'God'" without any support for why the thing must be God as opposed to something else.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I think you point to a fundamental problem with many arguments for God: at the end of the argument, they make the logical jump from "therefore, a thing with some arcane attribute exists" to "... and we call this 'God'" without any support for why the thing must be God as opposed to something else.

Agreed. There is no reason to jump to supernatural explanations to explain the natural.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I agree with what Laplace said to Napoleon (or was purported to have said).

It must take talent to explain so much of the universe without mention of it's creator. Lol. That's why I like physics.

 

[Alt Thinker]

I would say it does not have a form. Does gravity or electromagnetism have a form? It would amount to about the same. I see no logical alternative to the existence of such a force. This is basically what science would call a Theory of Everything. They hypothesize the existence of such a force, they simply haven't worked out the math or the physics of it yet.

Gravity and electromagnetism have precise mathematical formalisms. These forms could possibly have been different. In addition they both involve physical constants that are derived heuristically and could all have been very different. when one gets int quantum theory, the forms and constants are even more exotic.

Theoretical physicists have constructed mathematical 'baby universes' where laws and constants are different and find no inconsistencies. Any ToE is going to have unexplained arbitrary elements that yield the particular forms and constants we observe.

The universe could have been different. Why is it the way it is? Why is it at all? Physics is not going to answer that. Metaphysics is needed.

 

[Alt Thinker]

I think you point to a fundamental problem with many arguments for God: at the end of the argument, they make the logical jump from "therefore, a thing with some arcane attribute exists" to "... and we call this 'God'" without any support for why the thing must be God as opposed to something else.

I agree completely. My very first post on this site gave my proposed metaphysical answer to the fundamental question (and it was not 'God'), but it went over like the proverbial heavy metal dirigible. Not sure I want to do it again. I take rejection poorly. :sad4:

 

[Runewolf1973]

Gravity and electromagnetism have precise mathematical formalisms. These forms could possibly have been different. In addition they both involve physical constants that are derived heuristically and could all have been very different. when one gets int quantum theory, the forms and constants are even more exotic.

Theoretical physicists have constructed mathematical 'baby universes' where laws and constants are different and find no inconsistencies. Any ToE is going to have unexplained arbitrary elements that yield the particular forms and constants we observe.

The universe could have been different. Why is it the way it is? Why is it at all? Physics is not going to answer that. Metaphysics is needed.

That is possible.

 

[Runewolf1973]

I agree completely. My very first post on this site gave my proposed metaphysical answer to the fundamental question (and it was not 'God'), but it went over like the proverbial heavy metal dirigible. Not sure I want to do it again. I take rejection poorly. :sad4:

I read your first post and I like it. It speaks of the power of Potential.

 

[idav]

There was a First Cause. That First Cause was not something supernatural or spiritual. It was not God. It was a naturally existing force or interaction. A Fundamental Force even more fundamental than gravity or electromagnetism. Someday science will find a way to unify the four Fundamental Forces into a single, all-encompassing force. This will be the origin of the universe, the First Cause, the First Interaction.

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force..." Max Plank

There is in fact something behind the existence of those Fundamental Forces. That "matrix of all matter" is not God, nor is it a conscious or intelligent mind. I believe it is another naturally existing Fundamental Force or Fundamental Interaction that science just hasn't figured out yet.

It changes a bit if your replace 'force' with 'will'.

 

[chinu]

There was a First Cause. That First Cause was not something supernatural or spiritual. It was not God. It was a naturally existing force or interaction. A Fundamental Force even more fundamental than gravity or electromagnetism. Someday science will find a way to unify the four Fundamental Forces into a single, all-encompassing force. This will be the origin of the universe, the First Cause, the First Interaction.

"All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force..." Max Plank

There is in fact something behind the existence of those Fundamental Forces. That "matrix of all matter" is not God, nor is it a conscious or intelligent mind. I believe it is another naturally existing Fundamental Force or Fundamental Interaction that science just hasn't figured out yet.

Neither science has figured it out yet, nor it can.
Whatever name you give to that thing, But I call that thing as God. And science can never discover that thing, its impossible, that I know

 

[Runewolf1973]

Neither science has figured it out yet, nor it can.
Whatever name you give to that thing, But I call that thing as God. And science can never discover that thing, its impossible, that I know

To get from creator to creation requires an interaction of some type...a force, or an action. Therefore, it is my deduction that what some people call "God" is that creative force. However, it is something natural, not supernatural IMO.