The First Cause was not God.

[Alt Thinker]

Here's an interesting thought... Perhaps a Black Hole is something like a giant rice cannon. The immense gravitational force of a Black Hole draws in all the planets and stars and light into the center and compresses it. On the other side of the Black Hole, everything that was compressed gets shot out, expelled and expands into the makings of another universe.

You are referring to a White Hole.

 

[Runewolf1973]

You are referring to a White Hole.

Ahh...yes! That's it right there. Thanks.

 

[Runewolf1973]

To me the difference between mere force vs will is the difference between atheism vs theism.

Then I guess to me that interaction would have to be more of a transformational force rather than a will. I don't see the universe as being conscious in any way.


---

 

[idav]

Then I guess to me that interaction would have to be more of a transformational force rather than a will. I don't see the universe as being conscious in any way.


---

Right I don't see it as conscious either. However force necessarily is will, it is at the very least, being something.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Right I don't see it as conscious either. However force necessarily is will, it is at the very least, being something.

I can see that. In a way it is the will to BE. I also call it simply Being.

 

[Edwin]

I would say it does not have a form. Does gravity or electromagnetism have a form? It would amount to about the same. I see no logical alternative to the existence of such a force. This is basically what science would call a Theory of Everything. They hypothesize the existence of such a force, they simply haven't worked out the math or the physics of it yet.

We speak as though words like "force", "gravity" and "electromagnetism" refer to "things". But if you think about it, they are only abstract noun forms of verbs or verb phrases, such as "to tend to move", "to gravitate" or "to tend to move toward an electromagnet". So it doesn't really make any sense to either say "they have a form" or "they don't have a form". I say "forces", "gravitation", and "electromagnetism" should not even be said "to EXIST" -- they should be said only 'to OCCUR'.

 

[idav]

I can see that. In a way it is the will to BE. I also call it simply Being.

Right like that. I consider existence is being.

 

[Runewolf1973]

We speak as though words like "force", "gravity" and "electromagnetism" refer to "things". But if you think about it, they are only abstract noun forms of verbs or verb phrases, such as "to tend to move", "to gravitate" or "to tend to move toward an electromagnet". So it doesn't really make any sense to either say "they have a form" or "they don't have a form". I say "forces", "gravitation", and "electromagnetism" should not even be said "to EXIST" -- they should be said only 'to OCCUR'.

Right, and that occurance IS interaction IS transformation IS Being.

 

[Edwin]

The first cause was existence.

 

[Runewolf1973]

The first cause was existence.

Can you explain further how or why you think this is the case?

The way I see it, that Being is existence is existing.

 

[Sonofason]

The universe is comprised of energy. It was not created by some magical being, it changes form. It also originates and exists by virtue of a force. What is that force? We're not sure. All we can say is that force was not a magical, creational (If that's even a word, lol) power, it was something transformational.

Besides... Matter is 99.9999 percent empty space. What was there for God to create?

God is not a magical being, He is all powerful. The energy of this universe exists because God spoke it into existence.

Indeed, when God spoke, the empty and void universe was completely transformed.

 

[idav]

Can you explain further how or why you think this is the case?

The way I see it, that Being is existence.

I have a hard time figuring how that wouldn't be the case.

 

[Sonofason]

I can see that. In a way it is the will to BE. I also call it simply Being.

God said He is "I am"

Is that not "Being"?

 

[Runewolf1973]

God is not a magical being, He is all powerful. The energy of this universe exists because God spoke it into existence.

Indeed, when God spoke, the empty and void universe was completely transformed.

Honestly, I would say this is all a metaphorical way of saying the same thing. I don't take these things literally.

 

[Runewolf1973]

God said He is "I am"

Is that not "Being"?

In a metaphorical sense, yes. Not literally though as in a conscious being saying "I am."

 

[Sonofason]

In a metaphorical sense, yes. Not literally though as in a conscious being saying "I am."

Only a conscious being can be aware of being.

 

[Thief]

In a metaphorical sense, yes. Not literally though as in a conscious being saying "I am."

Metaphor?.....as in....'attempting to say in parallel terms'?

Parallel to what?

When you are the First in mind and heart ....there is no one else.
When you become aware of the situation.....'I AM!'.....is then
Self Obvious.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Only a conscious being can be aware of being.

Is a tree aware of being? Is a rock aware of being? Being does not necessitate awareness or consciousness. Being is simply existing.

 

[Thief]

Is a tree aware of being? Is a rock aware of being? Being does not necessitate awareness or consciousness. Being is simply existing.

Years ago (high school) a science mag reported the experiment of a plants having a sense of awareness.

Three plants alone in a room.....wired for any change in the flow of their chemistry.

A volunteer enters the room and completely kills one plant chosen at random.
He leaves.
The readout shows a reaction in the flow of chemistry in the remaining two plants.

With the volunteer returns and approaches the survivors....the reaction begins again!

The experiment is a little difficult to reproduce.

 

[Runewolf1973]

Years ago (high school) a science mag reported the experiment of a plants having a sense of awareness.

Three plants alone in a room.....wired for any change in the flow of their chemistry.

A volunteer enters the room and completely kills one plant chosen at random.
He leaves.
The readout shows a reaction in the flow of chemistry in the remaining two plants.

With the volunteer returns and approaches the survivors....the reaction begins again!

The experiment is a little difficult to reproduce.

I call it complex interactions. A rock is less complex. An insect or creature is more complex. A human is highly complex. They all interact differently. That level of interaction is their awareness.