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The first living thing could not have come into being by random chance, therefore, God Almighty created all things. Just 1 proof.

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
From what I have read of Einstein his attitude was that if there is a God it is a deist one. A God that just wound the universe up and let it go. Which is essentially no different from no God at all.
I have to disagree with your last sentence. I would say the difference is obvious. Sentient direction vs. undirected happenstance. Even if this God simply wound the universe up and let it go there would be directed purpose involved and the probabilities would change for our scientific discoveries. The purpose in this case would be to create something it could "wind up" and let go. There are theological reasons why a creator God cannot create without purpose as well. Never the less that's speculation for another time and place.
I don't know how or if it would effect the collective psyche of humanity if we somehow knew God existed but it was an impersonal God unconcerned with the events unfolding in its creation verses knowing God doesn't exist at all, but I believe there would be some differing effects.
I think for me...even if it wouldn't effect how my life unfolds in history I would want to know whether or not this God existed though I'm sure my attitude towards this God would change if it did.
 
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The first living creature could not have come into being by random chance. It is impossible.

A first living creature would have to have had at least 100,000 amino acids in a particular sequence. This is extremely generous. The smallest free-living thing has over 1,300,000 base pairs. I also have not included having over 500 million other atoms in it.

...

The atheists have been deceived into believing that the first creature could come into existence by random chance.
Never has been observed. Simple analysis shows it is impossible. There is no record that it ever did.
So, the evolutionist has the burden of proof.
I think, perhaps, the stronger argument for the existence of God is the rational soul or human intellect, which does not exist in the "star stuff" that matter is made of. We are part of this universe and yet have a quality that is not present in the whole. At least not the part we can see. The stuff of which we are made has no intelligence. So, whence humankind?

We are also unique on this planet—which is not to say that beings with rational souls don't exist elsewhere in the universe(s). In fact, I believe they must exist. We are unique in the way we bend the laws of the material universe to explore and invent. We can't fly naturally, so using our intellect we discovered then reverse-engineered the physics to design and build machines to allow us flight. We cannot exist underwater or in space naturally, so we studied the physics of that and designed and built machines that allow us to travel in both places.

Despite the millions of years life has been evolving on the planet, there is no animal that is "almost human."

Beyond that, I'd ask why it's necessary to pit evolution and creation (or science and faith) against each other. As a writer, I can tell you that my relationship with my creation is very much like God's relationship to His. I love my creation and therefore, I create it. I put enough of myself into the people I create that you could say I created them in my image. I put enough of myself into the stories I write that you could say I am in my creation, yet I exist beyond it and am not bound by its laws (which I also created). And yet, the process by which I do this is evolutionary. The world and its characters start out as mere ideas and grow and change as I work with them. They're not always obedient, either. :)

If you watch an artist create a sculpture from beginning to end, it's even clearer that creation and evolution are virtually the same process. The difference is what tools are used in that process and whether you believe that process is blind and random or guided. Well, yes, of course regardless of what one believes about God they are guided by the laws of physics, some of which scientists can describe even if they can't explain exactly why they exist as they do.

I'd also note that science is, as a discipline, a product of faith and requires faith to be pursued. Would we pursue knowledge of the universe if we had no faith that it could be known? Indeed, most early scientists (they were called natural philosophers or natural historians until some time in the 19th century) were people of faith who felt their scriptures invited them to do science so as to know the physical universe God created.

Lord Kelvin, who formulated the first and second laws of thermodynamics and whose title graces the scale by which we measure absolute temperatures, wrote: "Do not be afraid of being free thinkers. If you think strongly enough you will be forced by science to the belief in God, which is the foundation of all Religion. You will find science not antagonistic, but helpful to Religion." — William Thomson, 1st Baron Kelvin
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
They're not allegories. They're myths. These are distinct literary forms with formal requirements. The writer of an allegory knows the history he is allegorizing, whereas the mythologist doesn't know the history he is speculating occurred.
Since we do not know what the writers of the Bible knew of the history, whether it occurred or not, we cannot say they were written as myths or allegories, or whether they were intended to be understood as events that really happened.
The versions I've read are in English, my native tongue. They say that a specific god with features they describe who offered an assortment of threats and commandments did those things.
The Old Testament says that a specific God with features the authors describe offered an assortment of threats and commandments did those things, but so what? Anyone can write a book that says the God said or did x or y. That does not mean they know what God said or did.
Nor need we. We can know what their words say.
All words require interpretation. Words can be interpreted to mean various things. Christians cannot even agree on what the Bible means. They read the same verses and interpret them to mean completely different things. That is one reason why the Christian religion is so divided.
There are countless descripts of gods.
But that does not mean there is more than one God - in reality.
That only means that different people describe God differently, according to their understanding, which usually comes from their religion.
But that's not what scripture says, which refers to a six 24-hour days of creation and one of rest. The biblical writers go to the added effort to let us know that they each contained a morning and an evening, and there is a commandment to emulate this day of rest. The Sabbath goes from sunset to sunset and this also contains a morning and an evening.
That's fine, if you want to believe that, but aside from Christians who are creationists, modern man knows that the earth was not created in six days. Maybe the writers of Genesis actually believed that since there was no science that contradicted that thousands of years ago.

I am not going to say that Genesis was written as an allegory. I am only saying that it can be interpreted and understood as an allegory now, in the modern age of science.
You wonder why atheists believe that the OT god is the real one? Wonder no more. They don't. We don't.
You might not believe it, but you talk as if you do.
That is the influence humanism has had on Christianity for the last several centuries.

These are all huge intellectual advances in Western culture, and they are due to the humanist influence.
Humanism might have had an influence on Christianity, but I don't think that is the only reason that views are changing. Some Christians are just no longer willing to believe what is contradicted by science.

This is related to a discussion I have been having on another thread. I believe it is because of the unsealing of the book (Bible) that Christians and others are coming to interpret it allegorically rather than as events that literally happened back in history.

Daniel Chapter 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.​

Until the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and not understand the meaning of the words in the book (Bible).

The book was intended by God to be sealed up until the time of the end, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came, which is when Christ would return and explain the true meaning of the book.

Unsealing the Book means we will be able to understand the true meaning of the Bible, so knowledge will be been increased.

Unsealing the Book means knowledge has been increased so we can now understand the true meaning of the Bible.
By reading the Baha’i Writings that explain the true meaning of the Bible, we can understand what much of the Bible means that could never be understood before.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I have to disagree with your last sentence. I would say the difference is obvious. Sentient direction vs. undirected happenstance. Even if this God simply wound the universe up and let it go there would be directed purpose involved and the probabilities would change for our scientific discoveries. The purpose in this case would be to create something it could "wind up" and let go. There are theological reasons why a creator God cannot create without purpose as well. Never the less that's speculation for another time and place.
I don't know how or if it would effect the collective psyche of humanity if we somehow knew God existed but it was an impersonal God unconcerned with the events unfolding in its creation verses knowing God doesn't exist at all, but I believe there would be some differing effects.
I think for me...even if it wouldn't effect how my life unfolds in history I would want to know whether or not this God existed though I'm sure my attitude towards this God would change if it did.

No, sentient direction is a concept that Einstein clearly disagreed with. I can't say that about Spinoza for sure, but that seems to be the case for him too.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I have to disagree with your last sentence. I would say the difference is obvious. Sentient direction vs. undirected happenstance.
Your use of "undirected happenstance" does not reflect the actual scientific perspective of abiogenesis and evolution. It appears to be religiously motivated and not reality. This needs an explanation on your part. The scientific stance is that natural laws and processes are the physical cause, and nothing is happenstance in nature. All cause-and-effect events in nature are caused by Natural Laws and the outcomes will always be in a narrow range of outcome. The outcomes are described predictably as fractal-based Chaos Theory. There is nothing that is 'truely' random in nature. The only thing that may be considered random in nature is the timing of individual events, and this does not affect the long-term outcome of a chain of cause-and-effect outcomes

Even if this God simply wound the universe up and let it go there would be directed purpose involved and the probabilities would change for our scientific discoveries. The purpose in this case would be to create something it could "wind up" and let go. There are theological reasons why a creator God cannot create without purpose as well. Never the less that's speculation for another time and place.
Your use of probability is again off the mark. Probability cannot be used to estimate the outcome of natural cause and effect outcomes.

Yes, God and Creation are based on theological speculation. IF God exists God Created Natural Laws and natural processes, and things pretty much happened with a range of possible outcomes over time. As far as abiogenesis and evolution are concerned the changing environment on earth is the driving force. and given the same environment and nature on other planets as on Earth life will likely have a range of possible outcomes.
I don't know how or if it would effect the collective psyche of humanity if we somehow knew God existed but it was an impersonal God unconcerned with the events unfolding in its creation verses knowing God doesn't exist at all, but I believe there would be some differing effects.
I think for me...even if it wouldn't effect how my life unfolds in history I would want to know whether or not this God existed though I'm sure my attitude towards this God would change if it did.

It sounds like you are proposing a Shinoza Deist God.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I think, perhaps, the stronger argument for the existence of God is the rational soul or human intellect, which does not exist in the "star stuff" that matter is made of. We are part of this universe and yet have a quality that is not present in the whole. At least not the part we can see.

Regardless of whether God exists "star stuff" is the natural incubator of our existence.

The stuff of which we are made has no intelligence. So, whence humankind?

The change over time (evolution) is based on a changing suitable environment for abiogenesis and evolution. Even though I believe in a 'Source' some call Gods, I believe the course and outcome of our physical existence, life, and humanity is a natural process regardless.
We are also unique on this planet—which is not to say that beings with rational souls don't exist elsewhere in the universe(s). In fact, I believe they must exist. We are unique in the way we bend the laws of the material universe to explore and invent. We can't fly naturally, so using our intellect we discovered then reverse-engineered the physics to design and build machines to allow us flight. We cannot exist underwater or in space naturally, so we studied the physics of that and designed and built machines that allow us to travel in both places.

Despite the millions of years life has been evolving on the planet, there is no animal that is "almost human."
I would consider fallible humans as almost human.
Beyond that, I'd ask why it's necessary to pit evolution and creation (or science and faith) against each other. As a writer, I can tell you that my relationship with my creation is very much like God's relationship to His. I love my creation and therefore, I create it. I put enough of myself into the people I create that you could say I created them in my image. I put enough of myself into the stories I write that you could say I am in my creation, yet I exist beyond it and am not bound by its laws (which I also created). And yet, the process by which I do this is evolutionary. The world and its characters start out as mere ideas and grow and change as I work with them. They're not always obedient, either. :)

If you watch an artist create a sculpture from beginning to end, it's even clearer that creation and evolution are virtually the same process. The difference is what tools are used in that process and whether you believe that process is blind and random or guided. Well, yes, of course regardless of what one believes about God they are guided by the laws of physics, some of which scientists can describe even if they can't explain exactly why they exist as they do.
Well, science does not consider the Natural Laws and processes of our physical existence 'random'. Anthropomorphic considerations of being sighted or blind are not a consideration in science concerning nature.
 

Dan From Smithville

"We are both impressed and daunted." Cargn
Staff member
Premium Member
So they had cracks and crevices but no signs of age. That is a contradiction.
They were dirt free,. So someone washed them off. That is a nonsense comment.
They were C-14 dated to be circa 500 AD.
And the depiction of Stegosaurus from circa 900 AD.
All these refute evolution and billions of years forever.
Sigh!

No they were not.

No it does not refute the theory of evolution.
 

SavedByTheLord

Well-Known Member
You sure made your case with this incoherent response.

Are you claiming you bought the 20th Century fake dinosaur figurines and broke them?
C-14 dated to 500 BC
And don’t forget the Stegosaurus etching in the temple.

Evolution the theory of nothing because it cannot explain the origin of anything.
It just uses circular reasoning.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
C-14 dated to 500 BC

Nope, you would need to show a reliable source when it comes to that.

Tell us, how do you date clay figurines using C-14? You have no clue since you do not understand how it is done.
And don’t forget the Stegosaurus etching in the temple.

Nope, no thagomizer. Definitely not a stegosaurus. The background appears to be independent of the animal. That means it is more likely a rhino.
Evolution the theory of nothing because it cannot explain the origin of anything.
It just uses circular reasoning.
No, no, no, you use circular reasoning. And remember the new rule. By not justifying your false accusation you just admitted that you were wrong again. That is twice today.
 

Dan From Smithville

"We are both impressed and daunted." Cargn
Staff member
Premium Member
C-14 dated to 500 BC
And don’t forget the Stegosaurus etching in the temple.
All bogus.
Evolution the theory of nothing because it cannot explain the origin of anything.
It just uses circular reasoning.

Evolution is the theory of the relationships and diversification of living things. That is something and not nothing. It isn't a theory of life's origins. Someone that claims to know this stuff better than scientists should know that.

Explain how it is circular reasoning?

What are your thoughts on Christians that claim to know things that they do not. As a Christian, what is your understanding of God's position on that sort of thing?
 

SavedByTheLord

Well-Known Member
All bogus.


Evolution is the theory of the relationships and diversification of living things. That is something and not nothing. It isn't a theory of life's origins. Someone that claims to know this stuff better than scientists should know that.

Explain how it is circular reasoning?

What are your thoughts on Christians that claim to know things that they do not. As a Christian, what is your understanding of God's position on that sort of thing?
Of course you have to run and hide from the fact that abiogenesis is impossible,
That is part of the deception of evolution and billions of years
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Evolution is a change in the gene pool. As you age, your genes don’t change.
Evolution broadly speaking applies to any transformation over time, one such transformation being the biological evolution of populations resulting in the tree of life we find today. We can also refer to individual or personal evolution such as with growth and development, or even the evolution of a car as it goes from drivable to rusting, or the evolution of religion or language or architecture.
Is that all you do here, is talk of no evidence for the supernatural? Any sane person knows that there isn’t any.
But we're discussing it with people who believe such things anyway.
evolution and billions of years are always being refuted and yet they pretend that they are true.
Nobody's listening to the creationists "refutations." You're talking to yourselves, pretending the science is false as you are now. You convince nobody yet say you have proved your claims. This is where faith has led you. You feel compelled to make these arguments on the Internet despite the verbal rebuking you take.

Think about what it takes to make a person do that, what ideas you've been convinced of that motivate you to seek and endure such treatment and think how much more pleasant it would be to be on this side of the discussion, which is where you would be if your religion hadn't set you on this path. What could your motive to do this be? I can only conceive of a few possibilities.

Are you trying to save souls? Unlikely. You've alienated most of the thread and should be aware of that if the atheists here could be further from Christianity, you've pushed them there. Are you a masochist? Unlikely. There are too many of you doing this to blame it all on mental deviance. My best guess is that Internet creationists are performing for their god, socially martyring themselves because they think it pleases that god and will result in a reward. That's more believable than that you are a masochist or think you make people want to you in the religion that has you doing this for it.
I have already proved God Almighty created all things and the Bible is true.
Although you've been told, you remain blissfully unaware of what you have "proved" here.
Evolution needs to be revoked worldwide. It is false.
Yet sadly for it but to the great benefit of the rest of the world, it's your religion that had been fading in the West as the science flourishes and gains in general acceptance making the people dancing on the Internet for their religious beliefs even more marginalized.

How good are you at interpreting data? Allow me. The rising columns as one moves from left to right on this graphic represent America's growing disinterest in religion, which in America means Christianity.

1696331363408.png


This one should be easy to understand.

1696331536603.png

One dino figurine falsifies evolution and billions of years, Evolution and billions of years is one of the biggest lies ever, one of the greatest delusions ever and one of the greatest evils ever.
Behold faith. We go there at our own risk. Paraphrasing the Grateful Dead, you just might find yourself out there on horseback in the dark, just ridin' and runnin' across those desert sands.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Since we do not know what the writers of the Bible knew of the history, whether it occurred or not, we cannot say they were written as myths or allegories
We know that the Bible writers were unaware of the actual history of the universe, earth, and life. Do you really believe otherwise? They didn't know where the rain came from. They thought they lived under a dome on a flat, motionless earth.
The Old Testament says that a specific God with features the authors describe offered an assortment of threats and commandments did those things, but so what?
When they describe it as they did, it allows us to decide that no such god exists once we have learned that the words describing it are wrong..
All words require interpretation.
Yes. They begin as squiggles and sounds and must be rendered into symbolic thought (language) and then analyzed using reason and memory. Some have clear meanings, while others are ambiguous or vague. Do you have any uncertainty about what these words you just read mean? Do you not have essentially the same idea in your mind now that I did when I chose and wrote those words? Did you imagine a process also called reading comprehension, where words become ideas according to what has been learned?
You might not believe it, but you talk as if you do.
You think I talk as if I believe that there is a god and that it's the Abrahamic god? If so, you didn't interpret my words correctly. I don't believe in any gods. That seems like a simple idea unlikely to be misunderstood.
Humanism might have had an influence on Christianity, but I don't think that is the only reason that views are changing. Some Christians are just no longer willing to believe what is contradicted by science.
Science, like atheism, is a byproduct of one of humanism's twin towers of achievement, one moral, one intellectual. Humanism is the embracing of reason over received "wisdom" in matters of what is true and what is good, and the recognition that man has the potential to be noble and to do great things including improving the human condition. Christianity has been reshaped both by science, which has believers calling their myths symbolic now, and rational ethics, which improved on biblical ethics (autocratic theocracy over democracy, slavery condoned, bigotry encouraged).
I think, perhaps, the stronger argument for the existence of God is the rational soul or human intellect, which does not exist in the "star stuff" that matter is made of.
Sure it does. Arrange the star stuff appropriately and it comes alive and then awakens. It happens every day. They're epiphenomena of collected matter not seen in the parts, like the wetness of water, which is nowhere to be found in a molecule of H2O. Water molecules aren't wet, but water is.
The stuff of which we are made has no intelligence. So, whence humankind?
The stuff we are made of can become arranged into an intelligent species.
Despite the millions of years life has been evolving on the planet, there is no animal that is "almost human."
That argument works against you. The other great apes are "almost human" and we are almost gorilla. We're all anthropoid, as was Australopithecus, who was "almost human." The similarities are striking.

Many allow themselves to believe that man is radically different from the other beasts because he can reason in language, but I see that as just another innovation of evolution like life and consciousness. The Abrahamic religions depend on a different formulation of reality, one in which a soul is injected into a body and then leaves it after death, a soul that arises from a supernatural realm and comprises a supernatural substance, a world in which a great mind preceded and is distinct from and superior to material reality.

But without such notions, we'd still be making sacrifices to bears and crows. You can see the evolution of the concept of intelligence in man and the power it confers as man transforms his gods from animals to human pantheons and then later a single superman god. You also see it with the invention of the muses, who were understood to be the source of creative ideas before it was understood that we ourselves are their source.
I'd also note that science is, as a discipline, a product of faith and requires faith to be pursued.
Not religious faith, which is insufficiently justified belief.
Would we pursue knowledge of the universe if we had no faith that it could be known?
That's justified belief, a different word spelled and pronounced the same. We shouldn't conflate them lest we commit equivocation fallacies by confusing and interchanging them.
Indeed, most early scientists (they were called natural philosophers or natural historians until some time in the 19th century) were people of faith who felt their scriptures invited them to do science so as to know the physical universe God created.
They didn't get that idea from their scriptures or from the church fathers. That's the humanist tradition, which begins with Thales (and the ancient Greeks), who speculated that reality is made of water, the only substance he was aware of that could exist as a solid, liquid, and gas. This is the beginning of replacing religious type faith with human speculation and the search for patterns and unifying principles in a world that might be comprehensible. It would need to wait for the Renaissance for the addition of empiricism to pure reasoning, which is what science is - observing and testing the reality our senses present to our reasoning faculty and memory.
Lord Kelvin, who formulated the first and second laws of thermodynamics and whose title graces the scale by which we measure absolute temperatures, wrote: "Do not be afraid of being free thinkers. If you think strongly enough you will be forced by science to the belief in God, which is the foundation of all Religion. You will find science not antagonistic, but helpful to Religion." — William Thomson, 1st Baron Kelvin
I say to the good lord here to keep thinking freely, but think harder. He might not be quite the visionary you imagine:
  • "X-rays will prove to be a hoax." - Lord Kelvin, President of the Royal Society, 1883.
  • "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." - Lord Kelvin, British mathematician and physicist, president of the British Royal Society, 1895
  • "Radio has no future." - Lord Kelvin, Scottish mathematician and physicist, former president of the Royal Society, 1897
  • "There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now; All that remains is more and more precise measurement." - Lord Kelvin, speaking to the British Association for the Advancement of Science, 1900.
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The Chinese had many statures and figurines of dragons and other similar creatures to dinosaurs and your figurines in 500 BCE.

One thing that is really humorous or maybe tragic ignorance about what you cited is clay figurines cannot be C-14 dated. Clay pottery used to cook and contain organic food can be dated.
Umm yes. Because people have been finding dinosaur fossils long before paleontologists. They seem to be the ACTUAL source of much of the mythological tales of dragons and giants.
The amazing thing is Egyptians actually led an official excavation project for finding such fossil bones.
10 Prehistoric Fossils That Were Discovered In Ancient Times - Listverse.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The Chinese had many statures and figurines of dragons and other similar creatures to dinosaurs and your figurines in 500 BCE.

One thing that is really humorous or maybe tragic ignorance about what you cited is clay figurines cannot be C-14 dated. Clay pottery used to cook and contain organic food can be dated.
Umm yes. Because people have been finding dinosaur fossils long before paleontologists. They seem to be the ACTUAL source of much of the mythological tales of dragons and giants.
The amazing thing is Egyptians actually led an official excavation project for finding such fossil bones.
10 Prehistoric Fossils That Were Discovered In Ancient Times - Listverse.
 
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