The flaw in the argument that feminism is bad because it ignores men's issues

[Riverwolf]

To me, that argument is essentially akin to saying that groups donating to starving children in Africa are bad because they aren't focusing on donating to starving Russian children.

Different movements focus on different issues, and aren't necessarily bad for not focusing on other issues.

Feminists focus on furthering equality between genders, which still doesn't exist on a social level (even so-called "masculinists" admit that.) Therefore, there shouldn't be animosity between those who focus on women's issues and those who focus on men's issues, and in terms of name, the lines are so blurry and the core philosophy is identical, so call it whatever you want, and don't get too hung up on what others call it. That's my job.

 

[apophenia]

The problem is when it denies or distorts men's issues when they are raised.

Also, claiming the moral high ground and saying that men who also support equality and oppose gender discrimination are also feminists - but then saying that women should not have to care about men's issues .... is ummm ... errrr.... let's just say it's [ deleted for reasons of ' political incorrectness ']

 

[ignition]

The reason why people say that is because feminist groups do go above and beyond wanting equal rights, they want special rights for women. As an example, one of London's feminist groups campaign members of parliament to introduce legislation to ensure that less women go to prison every year. How anyone can support this is beyond belief, it's off the charts contemptible.

 

[Curious George]

I do not understand what you are saying, perhaps you could elaborate.

Sorry I forgot to quote apophenia. And this was directed at that user

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Personally I find some of the slogans and materials presented by anti-violence campaigners in Australia to focus on women to the extent that it portrays men as the source of abuse in relationships. There was this huge 'Australia says no to violence against women' campaign I remember walking past someone selling ribbons and thinking how sexist it was, and that had it not contained the last two words in that slogan I might have bought a ribbon. The Ads they ran on tv were exclusively about female victims whether it be the wife or daughters; the offenders were exclusively male and their sons when shown were always accompanied by talking about the 'cycle of abuse' as if to reinforce that these boys would one day grow up to beat their wives, because that is what boys do - they weren't also victims or if they were then more importantly they were eventual abusers too.

But that isnt feminism; we conflate the concepts regarding women under the title, but simply said there is gender equality movements, there are movements looking for gender equality, empowerment and even outright anti-male movements... there are numerous types of female orientated associations and movements that are not necessarily 'feminist' as such.

 

[Revoltingest]

To me, that argument is essentially akin to saying that groups donating to starving children in Africa are bad because they aren't focusing on donating to starving Russian children.

Different movements focus on different issues, and aren't necessarily bad for not focusing on other issues.

Feminists focus on furthering equality between genders, which still doesn't exist on a social level (even so-called "masculinists" admit that.) Therefore, there shouldn't be animosity between those who focus on women's issues and those who focus on men's issues, and in terms of name, the lines are so blurry and the core philosophy is identical, so call it whatever you want, and don't get too hung up on what others call it. That's my job.

I agree that to focus on female issues instead of male issues isn't inherently a problem.
Once cannot address on every problem in the world, so we limit ourselves to that which calls us.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

The problem is when it denies or distorts men's issues when they are raised.

Really? Like what? Got a husband and three sons (two adult, one teen) that I care for deeply concerning their welfare. When our two oldest became of age and have had to register with selective service, all the males in my house heard me ***** about sex discrimination, and that government was treating my boys like they're nothing but drones.

For the record, if young men are to register, I say young women must register too.

Also, claiming the moral high ground and saying that men who also support equality and oppose gender discrimination are also feminists - but then saying that women should not have to care about men's issues .... is ummm ... errrr.... let's just say it's [ deleted for reasons of ' political incorrectness ']

I have yet to hear any feminists who actually say they should not have to care about men's issues. Do you have any specific examples?

 

[methylatedghosts]

When is the last time anyone heard of a charity to raise funds for male victims of violence..?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

They exist... its just that they get laughed at instead of getting donations.

And their clients even more so... after all they aren't really men.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

When is the last time anyone heard of a charity to raise funds for male victims of violence..?

Violence in war, genocide, and human trafficking?

Feminism is addressing that. What other kinds of violence are you referring to?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

I am fairly sure he was referring to charities not that included men but were FOR men; the reverse is certainly abundant (one of my ex's mentioned how much easier it was for her to get a place to sleep with one of the women's shelters when she had been homeless than it would have been for any man to find a place) the simple fact is that both men and women are more likely to assist a woman in distress than they are a man, that extends to our willingness to donate to charities (compare for example female specific cancer charities to male specific cancer charities... the funding differences are... significant)

edit: though I should note that in some places the government then attempts to redress this imbalance in private donations somewhat by providing additional public funding to male specific causes

 

[idav]

Violence in war, genocide, and human trafficking?

Feminism is addressing that. What other kinds of violence are you referring to?

Humanism is adressing those issues gooder!

 

[Revoltingest]

Humanism is adressing those issues gooder!

"Humanism" looks different & broader.
Humanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And....
Humanism | Define Humanism at Dictionary.com

 

[Apex]

To me, that argument is essentially akin to saying that groups donating to starving children in Africa are bad because they aren't focusing on donating to starving Russian children.

Different movements focus on different issues, and aren't necessarily bad for not focusing on other issues.

Feminists focus on furthering equality between genders, which still doesn't exist on a social level (even so-called "masculinists" admit that.) Therefore, there shouldn't be animosity between those who focus on women's issues and those who focus on men's issues, and in terms of name, the lines are so blurry and the core philosophy is identical, so call it whatever you want, and don't get too hung up on what others call it. That's my job.

Feminism is not bad, it is just a misnomer.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I am fairly sure he was referring to charities not that included men but were FOR men; the reverse is certainly abundant (one of my ex's mentioned how much easier it was for her to get a place to sleep with one of the women's shelters when she had been homeless than it would have been for any man to find a place) the simple fact is that both men and women are more likely to assist a woman in distress than they are a man, that extends to our willingness to donate to charities (compare for example female specific cancer charities to male specific cancer charities... the funding differences are... significant)

If we were willing to have a conversation on the complexities of addressing these issues, I'm game. We can go over statistics of prevalence and degree of the suffering, compare/contrast/critique the attention each is getting, and discuss how feminism can approach it.

I can start by introducing the issue of homelessness in gender-specific study. From this abstract link:

Homeless women are very different from homeless men, but few studies have reported data separately on them or compared them directly with men. This report on a study of 600 homeless men and 300 homeless women in St. Louis presents comparison data on these populations. The pivotal difference between homeless men and women was that unlike men, most women had young children in their custody. The women were also younger than men, more likely to be members of a minority group, and more often dependent on welfare. They had been homeless for a shorter period and spent less time in unsheltered locations. Compared to men, they had less frequent histories of substance abuse, incarceration, and felony conviction. Solitary women (without children with them), compared to women with children in their custody, were more likely to be white, had been homeless longer, and more often had a history of alcoholism or schizophrenia. On most variables, values for solitary women lay somewhere between those for men and for women with children. The population of homeless women is therefore heterogeneous, with at least two subgroups. These groups are likely to benefit from intervention programs that are designed to address their specific problems and needs, which are not necessarily the same as those of homeless men.

In my study and experience in dealing with male and female homelessness, I have seen a trend in homelessness in males most including substance abuse, untreated schizophrenia, veterans, and gay/bisexual/transgendered teens. Each situation can be and should be addressed differently, IMO, given that there are social and medical intervention programs I believe ought to be considered for the purpose of alleviating these issues.

 

[ignition]

While I am against feminism in general, I think it's time to admit that every guy knows deep down that men do not need support or campaigns like the women do, there's no equivalence. I personally don't think discrimination and objectification of women is ever going to stop, especially since feminist groups tend to support exactly that by being pro-pornography where women act as if they are being abused by men. It's a real shame some women are not helping themselves. And why do they complsin anout being wolf-whistled as they are going in to work? Perhaps if they stop wearing such tight high skirts things would change. I don't see men exposing their underwear on public transport in the morning rush hour into work (and for the record, yes, I have seen women professionals' underwear due to them spreading their legs. If they don't want to be objectified and judged they should act normally.

 

[apophenia]

Feminism is addressing that. What other kinds of violence are you referring to?

Here are two posts I just made in the thread "Wow" -

I was a manager of a sex shop in 1979. It was a part-time job I got off a university jobs board. I had a partner who was pregnant, so I wanted to get some extra income while I studied.

I was working there on the night of the first 'reclaim the night' feminist march through the streets of Melbourne. Lots of women carrying candles.

The shop only had one entrance/exit. The back door into a lane was bolted and chained shut. The entrance had a wooden structure to conceal the interior of the shop, a kind of vestibule. In the vestibule were very flammable items of lingerie.

One of the women from the march decided to set the shop alight with her candle.

I managed to put the fire out with a fire extinguisher. It could have got very ugly very quickly. It was worthy of a charge of attempted murder.

I went outside after extinguishing the fire. There was a community radio ( 3CR ) news crew, set up in the street. They seemed to be waiting for me.

They began to interview me about my attitudes to pornography, and whether I thought it was exploitation of women. I pointed out that a lot of it was gay magazines, and the hetero stuff was also bought by a lot of women, and couples. Which was true.

They were obviously hoping I was a knuckle dragging chauvinist. I answered their questions in an enlightened kind of way, despite their attempts to brand me as an oppressor of women.

Then I pointed out that a woman had just set fire to the shop, and I could have been burned alive.

At that point they ( males ) actually said to one another, "let's finish up" and terminated the interview. All of the women listening glared at me like I was the enemy. No-one protested at the act of irresponsible and possibly lethal arson.

That was illuminating (pardon the pun).

At that point I realised that for some women, feminism was a war, and regardless of my attitudes or behavior, I was the enemy.

Unfortunately, 'feminists' and the 'alternative socialist left' media gave those women unconditional support. Not one woman present objected to what had happened. The community radio journalists swept the arson under the carpet.

I did not (and do not) consider any of those women ( dozens were aware of what had happened) who saw this event and raised no objection to be decent or moral, nor their passivity anything less than tacit support for a violent attack on a male for 'political reasons'.

That is how it was in 1979.

How will that be viewed here on RF in 2013 ?

Those women were not feminists, if by feminist you mean someone who stands for equality.

What were they ?

Would anyone like to venture a suitable adjective ?

I have also posted in the past about violent attacks of women on men (myself included), and was basically accused of lying.

I have also posted about a social worker I talked with years ago. I was in an agency which had part-time work available. There were posters on the walls about domestic violence, and all of them referred to the aggressor as 'him'.

I decided to point out to the female social worker that, as someone who been violently assaulted repeatedly by a woman who got away with it because of prevailing sexist (anti-male) attitudes, l found the gender bias of the posters offensive.

This woman was about 60. She had seen a lot. She said to me that in her estimation about 60% of the domestic violence cases she personally dealt with were primarily caused by the women. She further acknowledged that she could could never admit this and keep her job.

This was in Launceston in Tasmania, in 2002.

The fastest growing demographic in Australian prisons in 2013 is women convicted of violent assault.

Look away ... move on ... nothing to see here ....

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Here are two posts I just made in the thread "Wow" -




I have also posted in the past about violent attacks of women on men (myself included), and was basically accused of lying.

I believe you. I'm not accusing you of lying.

I have also posted about a social worker I talked with years ago. I was in an agency which had part-time work available. There were posters on the walls about domestic violence, and all of them referred to the aggressor as 'him'.

I decided to point out to the female social worker that, as someone who been violently assaulted repeatedly by a woman who got away with it because of prevailing sexist (anti-male) attitudes, l found the gender bias of the posters offensive.

This woman was about 60. She had seen a lot. She said to me that in her estimation about 60% of the domestic violence cases she personally dealt with were primarily caused by the women. She further acknowledged that she could could never admit this and keep her job.

This was in Launceston in Tasmania, in 2002.

The fastest growing demographic in Australian prisons in 2013 is women convicted of violent assault.

Look away ... move on ... nothing to see here ....

I'm looking, and I can talk with you about it if you're willing.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

While I am against feminism in general, I think it's time to admit that every guy knows deep down that men do not need support or campaigns like the women do, there's no equivalence. I personally don't think discrimination and objectification of women is ever going to stop, especially since feminist groups tend to support exactly that by being pro-pornography where women act as if they are being abused by men. It's a real shame some women are not helping themselves. And why do they complsin anout being wolf-whistled as they are going in to work? Perhaps if they stop wearing such tight high skirts things would change. I don't see men exposing their underwear on public transport in the morning rush hour into work (and for the record, yes, I have seen women professionals' underwear due to them spreading their legs. If they don't want to be objectified and judged they should act normally.

Good luck with this line of reasoning.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I'm a business owner in an industry that is female-dominated fighting for equal representation and respect for boys and men. I also fight for equal representation and respect for girls and women in fields and positions that are male-dominated for no other reason than gender-specification.

So, listen, if there are males here who truly believe that no feminist exists that cares about the plights of male-specific issues...if it comes to prostate and testicular health and cancer awareness...if it comes to men wanting to be with their children more and have better chances of shared custody or joint custody....if it comes to domestic violence issues where men are beaten and/or raped by their partners....if it comes to selective service that is discriminatory against males....

I'm fighting for you. You deserve to be protected and to be heard.