The flaw in the argument that feminism is bad because it ignores men's issues

[Alceste]

In that case you can't say that feminism is not gender biased,or make the claim that a man is also a feminist if he stands for equality and against gender discrimination.

If it's every man for himself, and women aren't too fussed about what happens to their husbands, sons and brothers, then lets not maintain a charade.

I made the statement that 'feminism' is inherently a sexist term in another thread. Unfortunately you can't read what I posted as it was deleted because, apparently, being a supporter of equal rights does not make a man a feminist. In discussing the feminist DIR it was claimed that a man could post there if he was feminist, and that he is feminist if he stands for equality.

That isn't true as it turns out. So someone needs to make it unambiguously clear that feminist only means 'woman'.

Feminists have long said that it is men's responsibility to address feminist issues. Now I am hearing that in their opinion it is not women's responsibility to address men's issues.

Gender bias much ? Doublespeak much ?

" It's just a little obnoxious to expect feminists to do that work for you." Really ? I thought it was 'us'. Now you are affirming that in your mind it is 'us and them'.

One giant leap backwards.

And this should encourage me to give a damn about women's issues ? Knowing that this is your attitude ? Sweet. Given that the women on RF are among the most thoughtful, that is virtually a statememt that if men are interested in equality, they should be equally disinterested in the plight of women as women are of the plight of men.

I hope the men reading this realise that this means that any time they spend on women's issues will not be reciprocated. We have now been informed that feminists only want equality for women - which is efffectively a nonsensical statement worthy of inclusion in 'Animal Farm'

Look, a large number of the premises in your comment are very questionable and seem to be the result of your own personal bias against feminism rather than being informed opinions. As i said, it's terrible what that one feminist did in the 70's, but feminism did not cause that. It's terrible that you are a victim of domestic abuse, but feminism didn't cause that either.

Primarily, I do not concede that the entire history and breath of feminist thought and activism can be boiled down to "supporting equal rights". There are SPECIFIC causes that feminists have committed themselves to over the centuries. Gaining the right to vote, the right to own property, the right to physical autonomy and reproductive choice, the right to work, the right to earn equal pay for work, etc. All of these SPECIFIC issues have had implications for women SPECIFICALLY, and that is only because it happens to be women who were denied these rights.

That doesn't mean that nobody else ever has been denied these specific rights, but it's just common sense to understand that feminists had to sort out the major disenfranchisement issues that affect women before turning their sights on the plight of other minorities. How could you help anybody else anyway if you couldn't vote, couldn't own property, couldn't control your own reproduction so you were wiping bums all your life as opposed to lobbying for change, you couldn't enter public life, etc?

I also object to your claims that men can't be feminists, that feminism is sexist and pits women against men, that it basically involves women demanding things from men, and all such stuff. Many men on RF are self-identified feminists. Sunstone, Dustin and Kilgore Trout to name a few. It has nothing to do with what you've got tucked away between your legs and everything to do with the SPECIFIC social issues you consider to be problematic and what you would like to do about them. You don't have to be a battery hen to support animal rights, and you don't need to be a woman to support advancement in the political, legal and economic status of women.

I've never heard any feminist demand that men solve women's problems, ever, except to request that they not rape us, slice off our genitals, force us to have children against our will, buy and sell us or murder us. Apart from that, there's honestly nothing men in general need to do to advance feminist causes. SPECIFIC men who unusually violent inclinations or patriarchal objectives and a lot of political clout just need to step off, and we'll do the rest.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

In that case you can't say that feminism is not gender biased,or make the claim that a man is also a feminist if he stands for equality and against gender discrimination.

If it's every man for himself, and women aren't too fussed about what happens to their husbands, sons and brothers, then lets not maintain a charade.

I made the statement that 'feminism' is inherently a sexist term in another thread. Unfortunately you can't read what I posted as it was deleted because, apparently, being a supporter of equal rights does not make a man a feminist. In discussing the feminist DIR it was claimed that a man could post there if he was feminist, and that he is feminist if he stands for equality.

That isn't true as it turns out. So someone needs to make it unambiguously clear that feminist only means 'woman'.

Feminists have long said that it is men's responsibility to address feminist issues. Now I am hearing that in their opinion it is not women's responsibility to address men's issues.

Gender bias much ? Doublespeak much ?

" It's just a little obnoxious to expect feminists to do that work for you." Really ? I thought it was 'us'. Now you are affirming that in your mind it is 'us and them'.

One giant leap backwards.

And this should encourage me to give a damn about women's issues ? Knowing that this is your attitude ? Sweet. Given that the women on RF are among the most thoughtful, that is virtually a statememt that if men are interested in equality, they should be equally disinterested in the plight of women as women are of the plight of men.

I hope the men reading this realise that this means that any time they spend on women's issues will not be reciprocated. We have now been informed that feminists only want equality for women - which is efffectively a nonsensical statement worthy of inclusion in 'Animal Farm'

edit : I should add that I still do give a damn about women's issues.

I give a damn about my partner, my daughter, my granddaughter. I give a damn about beings in general. That is the inevitable result of not being ignorant.

I find this rejection of responsibility toward 'the other gender' repugnant.

Feminism is dead.

Long live enlightened equality.

Have you not regarded anything I said when it comes to my concern for my husband's and three sons' welfare and protection? I am a staunch feminist. I find your disgust toward feminists disingenuous and shortsighted.

I've been burned before by men. I don't hate men, and I am not suspicious of men in general. I expect the same respect as a feminist.

 

[PolyHedral]

That's what life used to be like for women.

I know, and hurrah, that problem has lessened. But, "Don't worry, we got a similar problem on the way to being fixed and it only took us 40 years," is hardly consolation to anyone facing the problem today, regardless of gender.

It took a lot of work to get us away from that paradigm, and we still have work to do. I think if those who share an interest in men's issues were more proactive on their own behalf when it comes to issues like domestic violence, homelessness, custody, etc. they could effect some real change in a positive direction. It's just a little obnoxious to expect feminists to do that work for you.

"more proactive on their own behalf?" So, what, all or most of the mens' rights advocates are lazy? They aren't working as hard as they could be?

I'm not expecting anyone to do work for "me." (As though this were the problem of a white cissexual male!) I'm only expecting people to treat the problem of a man being slapped and abused by his wife as seriously as people treat the gender inversion!

 

[Alceste]

I know, and hurrah, that problem has lessened. But, "Don't worry, we got a similar problem on the way to being fixed and it only took us 40 years," is hardly consolation to anyone facing the problem today, regardless of gender.

"more proactive on their own behalf?" So, what, all or most of the mens' rights advocates are lazy? They aren't working as hard as they could be?

I'm not expecting anyone to do work for "me." (As though this were the problem of a white cissexual male!) I'm only expecting people to treat the problem of a man being slapped and abused by his wife as seriously as people treat the gender inversion!

Personally domestic abuse is not a major preoccupation for me. I'm more interested and active in other issues. Affordable housing, poverty, studying and promoting women's history, war, socialism and the depiction of women in the media.

As I said, I can give you my sincere opinion that I think domestic violence is bad. I'm indifferent to the gender of the perpetrator. It's just bad. Nobody should be smacking anybody around. I'm very interested in hearing what you are doing about it, and I'd be happy to share with you what I'm doing about the issues I listed.

If you're not doing anything about it, then I don't see why you would complain that I'm not either. It's your thing.

I mean the generic "you", by the way, as in anybody who thinks feminists should take on the specific issues they are interested in, rather than just doing it themselves. It's just lazy, and yes, more than a little obnoxious. If that's not you, then don't take it personally.

 

[Sha'irullah]

A wife should obey. Feminism ignores man's need on this alone, period

 

[Alceste]

A wife should obey. Feminism ignores man's need on this alone, period

:slap:

 

[Sha'irullah]

:slap:

I am a misogynist, and proud of it. Now fix me a sandwich woman! :sarcastic

 

[Alceste]

I am a misogynist, and proud of it. Now fix me a sandwich woman! :sarcastic

You're barking up the wrong tree.

 

[Sha'irullah]

You're barking up the wrong tree.

Your a tree? Oh please excuse me then Mrs. Oakly

 

[Aquitaine]

I am a misogynist, and proud of it. Now fix me a sandwich woman! :sarcastic

Be careful - one day you could end up with a job at Subway, where you'll have to make sammiches for successful career-oriented Women.

"Would you like some Misogyny with that, ma'am?"

 

[Sha'irullah]

Be careful - one day you could end up with a job at Subway, where you'll have to make sammiches for successful career-oriented Women.

"Would you like some Misogyny with that, ma'am?"

I'm not married to them so who cares . Major difference to working for a lady as oppose to working for your wife

 

[Aquitaine]

I'm not married to them so who cares . Major difference to working for a lady as oppose to working for your wife

So you don't mind working for a stranger, but you take objection to working for a person you've committed to in a Marriage?

Meh, whatever floats your boat.

 

[Curious George]

A wife should obey. Feminism ignores man's need on this alone, period

Survivalist humor is not funny only sad, trolling is not funny only pathetic. Why make a mockery out of something that is really important to others? are you uncomfortable with the subject, feel you have nothing to add intellectually?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Survivalist humor is not funny only sad, trolling is not funny only pathetic. Why make a mockery out of something that is really important to others? are you uncomfortable with the subject, feel you have nothing to add intellectually?

From my understanding, he is not joking.

 

[Curious George]

From my understanding, he is not joking.

I've read many of his other posts and sincerely doubt that his posts here coincide with his belief system. I would venture a guess that the post was a targeted attack that betray a little more than the person behind the character would like, but there is always the chance it was random.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I've read many of his other posts and sincerely doubt that his posts here coincide with his belief system. I would venture a guess that the post was a targeted attack that betray a little more than the person behind the character would like, but there is always the chance it was random.

Stranger things have happened before on RF. One member even faked his own death to see how many people he could trick into giving sympathy.

 

[Aquitaine]

Stranger things have happened before on RF. One member even faked his own death to see how many people he could trick into giving sympathy.

lolwut?

Oh actually, now that you mention it - I think I remember that! Funny place, 'ere RF.

 

[Me Myself]

The problem is when it denies or distorts men's issues when they are raised.

Also, claiming the moral high ground and saying that men who also support equality and oppose gender discrimination are also feminists ]

Oh no, real feminists dont believe that :no:

You must have been tricked by the stances of sources that only appear to be feminist, but are actually misinformation spreaders in disguise :yes:

 

[Sha'irullah]

Stranger things have happened before on RF. One member even faked his own death to see how many people he could trick into giving sympathy.

Seriously? :areyoucra that is epic. I have seen some pretty sour things occur in forums but this just tops a lot of the things I have seen.

 

[Sha'irullah]

From my understanding, he is not joking.

I am doing both actually. I was being quite sincere and just using my usual sarcasm. But my aim towards women was "relationships". I am not that sexist, I do not even like sex for starters.