The flaw in the argument that feminism is bad because it ignores men's issues

[Caladan]

To me, that argument is essentially akin to saying that groups donating to starving children in Africa are bad because they aren't focusing on donating to starving Russian children.

To me it's more akin to saying that empowering the role of Afro-Americans in American society is bad unless we make sure that white Americans are also empowered.
The idea behind movements such as feminism is to alter a discriminatory status quo. The status quo is still that men are disproportionately better represented in various establishments and are also often arbitrarily better rewarded in these positions.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I agree. The sad part is when feminists support the "humanization" of males by saying they're not naturally violent, not naturally controlling, that masculinity is NOT defined by aggression and rape....that there is the accusation that there is the "feminization" of males.

The argument against that is men are not women. They don't want to be weak, flighty, flaky, hormonal, emotional, irrational, bleeding-heart sad sacks. They're manly men who are strong protectors of their territory. Stop trying to make men into the smaller weaker sex. Simple as that. Now where's my sammich?

Yeah. It's really lame, isn't it?

Yeah it is really lame, and in the same breath the anti-feminists say fool foolness about how boys just don't mature as fast as girls, and other gender myth nonsense. Yeah it's people like that that just keep men stupid, not feminists.

 

[Me Myself]

To me it's more akin to saying that empowering the role of Afro-Americans in American society is bad unless we make sure that white Americans are also empowered.
The idea behind movements such as feminism is to alter a discriminatory status quo. The status quo is still that men are disproportionately better represented in various establishments and are also often arbitrarily better rewarded in these positions.

I think feminist claims exagerate the wage gap, and apparently there was a time that NOW deliberately hid important piece of information that made clear the gap was way smaller.

When you compare taking in consideration years of experience, those that work for an employer or work for themselves, and SPECIALIZATION(yes, men doctors do and should earn more than female doctors if there are many more male surgeons, because that specialization should be better rewarded. You have to compare surgeon with surgeon when wages)

So it is important to be aware of the entire status. Oe study I saw seemed to show the wage gap was of about 7% when all the relevant factors are taken into consideration. 2% was taken as a reasonable fluctuation, and then we have a way less alarming (but still needed to be adressed) 5% difference in wage.

It is important that we approach the subjects truthfully and not just from the femme perspective.

 

[Sunstone]

So it is important to be aware of the entire status. Oe study I saw seemed to show the wage gap was of about 7% when all the relevant factors are taken into consideration. 2% was taken as a reasonable fluctuation, and then we have a way less alarming (but still needed to be adressed) 5% difference in wage.

Source?

 

[Me Myself]

Had it not been one of my thread, I might have never found it.

I doesnt tlak about all the jobs, just the corporate ones, but it was the best I could find then that seemed to take in consideration not only the general careerr, but specific job, years of experience, etc.

So here it goes:

http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.e.../viewcontent.cgi?article=1013&context=hrpubs"

Edit: actually! i couldn't find anything remotely good enough, the link was provided originally by alceste

 

[Sunstone]

http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1013&context=hrpubs&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.ca%2Fscholar_url%3Fhl%3Den%26q%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fdigitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1013%2526context%253Dhrpubs%26sa%3DX%26scisig%3DAAGBfm3HdO6ZJChjbQ_U0wBFpnRZJzgiZQ%26oi%3Dscholarr%26ei%3DY2Y2UeayI4nFyAGCnICYAQ%26ved%3D0CC8QgAMoATAA#search=%22http%3A%2F%2Fdigitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu%2Fcgi%2Fviewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1013%26context%3Dhrpubs%22

That's interesting, but it applies to only to top corporate jobs. Most people, male or female, do not have such jobs. Do you have any information on the wage gap in more populated job categories?

 

[Me Myself]

That's interesting, but it applies to only to top corporate jobs. Most people, male or female, do not have such jobs. Do you have any information on the wage gap in more populated job categories?

I dont have a source of a study directly, en again, I havent find a source that studies e gap across all jobs and takes in consideration relevant factors like job experience, whether the person is employer or employee, specific forms of practice on the career (if the make doctor winning way more than the female doctor is a surgeon, his extra bucks are justified) and etc.

Also I would expect that women might be more concerned on most cases on the job enviroment than n the money, and may be more prone to sacrifice a job offering them higher payment for one where the enviroment seems to be more friendly. This is of course an hypothesis of mine, I dont have a source for it, but .i do think that given most men have the mentlaity of "I must earn top buck cause a "man" must be the "provider" they will be more prone to take a lousy environment for a bigger pay or in general accept more undesirable conditions.

Edit: do you have a study that take sin consideration all this things? (Except my hypothesis, I would find it just too unlikely that they would include that TBH)

 

[Sha'irullah]

Aside from spanking I take it ?

Nothing sexual about spanking females who deserve it. Women lack discipline!:sarcastic I do not need to justify my claims

 

[Falvlun]

Nothing sexual about spanking females who deserve it. Women lack discipline!:sarcastic I do not need to justify my claims

It just makes you delusional, that's all.

 

[Me Myself]

And very creepy o.o

 

[Sha'irullah]

It just makes you delusional, that's all.

And very creepy o.o

What is this, judge Sterling Archer's fascination with spanking? :sarcastic. We spankophiles are a proud people who condemn feminism and its assert that the female is not capable of deserving a proper English thrashing!

Feminism truly is anti male as it denies us our right to thrash women. None ye try and deny it

 

[MysticSang'ha]

What is this, judge Sterling Archer's fascination with spanking? :sarcastic. We spankophiles are a proud people who condemn feminism and its assert that the female is not capable of deserving a proper English thrashing!

Feminism truly is anti male as it denies us our right to thrash women. None ye try and deny it

Dude, seriously. Find a submissive woman in the BDSM community - one who is also not looking for sexual involvement but only wishes to be dominated - and be happy. Your finger wagging about how all women should be treated by your sadistic standards won't get you far at all.

 

[Sha'irullah]

The natural issue with Feminism though is that Feminism by default will ignore any male issue.....because it is about females. There is no Masculinism which addresses male issues unless you count the National Organization of Men Against Amazonion Masterhood also known as NO MA"AM.

There will be a certain level of clashing and unreasonable obstruction just by being a naturally bias establishment. Zionists will always be pro Jewish, Hinduvta will always br pro Indian and Feminism will always be pro female.

The undeniable assault upon each other is natural

 

[Debater Slayer]

When I'm concerned or worried about something, I don't throw a pity party dedicated to every single tragedy in existence in addition to worrying about my own problems. That doesn't mean I don't care about other people who are going through difficult times; it just means that I can't focus on all problems in the world at once.

I don't think it's fair to expect feminists to support any other causes just to avoid being labeled "misandrist," "biased," etc. for focusing on issues related to women's rights.

 

[Alceste]

That's interesting, but it applies to only to top corporate jobs. Most people, male or female, do not have such jobs. Do you have any information on the wage gap in more populated job categories?

I did find stuff. Most sources agree that the unexplained gap after all the things MM lists are accounted for in the US is about 15%, IIRC. I can't be bothered to look it all up again though.

 

[Willamena]

The natural issue with Feminism though is that Feminism by default will ignore any male issue.....because it is about females. There is no Masculinism which addresses male issues unless you count the National Organization of Men Against Amazonion Masterhood also known as NO MA"AM.

There will be a certain level of clashing and unreasonable obstruction just by being a naturally bias establishment. Zionists will always be pro Jewish, Hinduvta will always br pro Indian and Feminism will always be pro female.

The undeniable assault upon each other is natural

It's gender based. Gender bias is a different kettle.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

It's gender based. Gender bias is a different kettle.

Oh, stop being so rational. Facts have no place here.

 

[Willamena]

Oh, stop being so rational. Facts have no place here.

I weep for a world where all base is bias, or all bias is prejudice. :/

 

[Me Myself]

I did find stuff. Most sources agree that the unexplained gap after all the things MM lists are accounted for in the US is about 15%, IIRC. I can't be bothered to look it all up again though.

Where? I remember when you showed me something like that it ignored the difference between a regular doctor and a surgeon and other important factos.

 

[Alceste]

Where? I remember when you showed me something like that it ignored the difference between a regular doctor and a surgeon and other important factos.

No it didn't. I'm not going through it all again though. If it didn't go in the first time it's probably not going in the second. You can do your own research of you like and share the results. I'll take a look if it's a study, but not if it's a blog or opinion article.