The flaw in the argument that feminism is bad because it ignores men's issues

[ignition]

Good luck with this line of reasoning.

Cheers.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

It's somewhat interesting that the abstract is almost entirely about women given that it is supposed to be of a study which is a comparison of their needs. Unfortunate that I cannot read the full article. Though nothing in the abstract you have provided would indicate any reason why there should be a higher level of support provided for women in particular.


My ex had a history of substance abuse, self harm and psychological issues including either bipolar/schizophrenia (I am unsure which) and was bisexual; she did not have children.

There are simply more facilities available for females and for at least some of those facilities (understandably) men are not merely not allowed to stay at but not allowed on the property. In comparison to significantly more than half a dozen female specific facilities she had personally stayed at within suburban adelaide she told me she had heard of TWO male specific facilities in the STATE for overnight stays (mainly for young boys) - and remember that Australian states are quite a bit bigger than a state over in america. I remember how she told me she and her friends would sometimes have difficulty getting the shelters to allow them beds because they stayed there so often, so what they did was go buy some cheap spirits and get smashed, because then the shelters ALWAYS accepted them (policy), can you picture the same happening for a male?

This woman was about 60. She had seen a lot. She said to me that in her estimation about 60% of the domestic violence cases she personally dealt with were primarily caused by the women. She further acknowledged that she could could never admit this and keep her job.

I remember seeing american stats indicating that a mother was twice as likely to abuse their children as their father (most likely as a result of spending more time around them). I should erally try to track that down... it was some pretty impressive stuff (with something like 100million incidents listed so it wasnt exactly likely to be unrepresentative)

 

[MysticSang'ha]

It's somewhat interesting that the abstract is almost entirely about women given that it is supposed to be of a study which is a comparison of their needs. Unfortunate that I cannot read the full article. Though nothing in the abstract you have provided would indicate any reason why there should be a higher level of support provided for women in particular.


My ex had a history of substance abuse, self harm and psychological issues including either bipolar/schizophrenia (I am unsure which) and was bisexual; she did not have children.

There are simply more facilities available for females and for at least some of those facilities (understandably) men are not merely not allowed to stay at but not allowed on the property. In comparison to significantly more than half a dozen female specific facilities she had personally stayed at within suburban adelaide she told me she had heard of TWO male specific facilities in the STATE for overnight stays (mainly for young boys) - and remember that Australian states are quite a bit bigger than a state over in america.

Is there anything showing rates of homeless males denied shelters in Australia?

 

[ignition]

Maternity discrimination ‘is a growing problem’ in UK - Telegraph

There's no question that women are targeted at work, I've even read of some cases where employers check the facebook profiles of women applicants to check whether or not they are in a relationship or they are pregnant.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

None that I could find about denial of services... though I did note a site that stated that while 56% of homeless people are male, females accounted for 59% of those served by shelters and specialist services (though I am unsure the extent to which it refers to accommodation specifically - I would however point out that proportional to their homeless population size demographics it would make women just under twice as likely to be served as males since 59/44 : 41/56 is 1.34 : 0.73 however I do not have evidence to suggest that men are as likely to ask for such services in the first place, the data on rejections is simply not available to me)

 

[MysticSang'ha]

None that I could find about denial of services... though I did note a site that stated that while 56% of homeless people are male, females accounted for 59% of those served by shelters and specialist services (though I am unsure the extent to which it refers to accommodation specifically - I would however point out that proportional to their homeless population size demographics it would make women just under twice as likely to be served as males since 59/44 : 41/56 is 1.34 : 0.73 however I do not have evidence to suggest that men are as likely to ask for such services in the first place, the data on rejections is simply not available to me)

Thanks. Do you have any links?

I think we can agree that the issue is quite complicated. A lot of variables to consider.

 

[apophenia]

None that I could find about denial of services... though I did note a site that stated that while 56% of homeless people are male, females accounted for 59% of those served by shelters and specialist services (though I am unsure the extent to which it refers to accommodation specifically - I would however point out that proportional to their homeless population size demographics it would make women just under twice as likely to be served as males since 59/44 : 41/56 is 1.34 : 0.73 however I do not have evidence to suggest that men are as likely to ask for such services in the first place, the data on rejections is simply not available to me)

I'd like to see the figures for % of social workers by gender. From my observation, it is far from equal. This could explain why it is unofficial policy that women never be asked to leave assisted housing no matter how badly they behave. The same is not true for men. I know this from personal experience and talking with social workers.
I have a friend in a housing estate in South Melbourne. In her end of her block ( 8 units, all with multiple residents) there are three males. And they are only there because of relationships with the lease-holding female tenant. There are 15 females.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Ack just after I closed the tabs....

Homelessness statistics government site (reporting census data) is where I got the 56% and 44% from for demographics and their report http://www.homelessnessaustralia.org.au/images/publications/Fact_Sheets/Homelessness_and_Women.pdf is where I got the figures 59% (and thus 41%) for services rendered from, however that last one is basically from the source below which is far more comprehensive.

Specialist Homelessness Services Collection: March quarter 2012 (AIHW) is the Specialist Health Service one, they provide different services including shelters, maternity support etc... its a detailed report I didnt have the time to fully read through and from what I can see they give a detailed breakdown of services rendered (but not sought or denied that i could see) - actually i found the age based breakdown comparing genders to eb rather intriguing... it really is remarkable that women who live so much longer than men comprise so much smaller a number of the aged homeless, one would think it would be the reverse; therre is a lot in that report I didn't know (will probably continue reading it tomorrow)

 

[MysticSang'ha]

All right, I'm listening.

How in your opinion should feminism address the issues you've presented?

 

[InformedIgnorance]

With regard to the homelessness situation? It shouldn't *blinks* Heck, create more women's shelters if you like - just do not do so by diverting from male services. All I was indicating was that in some respects aspects of feminist related movements (not all of which are based in feminism of course) act in such a way as to crowd out other activities, seemingly with little concern over the results of doing so.

My initial post on the other hand about the 'Australia says no to violence against women' campaign? In that case yes, I think perhaps there is a role there that in some regards certain elements who associate with the label feminism has perhaps become insensitive to the suffering of males - it was particularly evident with the treatment of young male victims of domestic violence; they were not 'real' victims they were just potential abusers. If that is what feminism in general has come to believe is an appropraiate attitude (and i do not think this is true) then they should just get out of the way, otherwise, those who purport to be against domestic violence should be denounce all domestic violence (rather than only focusing on male perpetrators with female victims, no mention of violence in same-sex relationships or against men by females), those who purport to support DV victims should be in support of all DV victims (rather than showing pictures of abused boys and saying that we need to end the cycle before these boys grow up) - that is something that members of the feminist community need to be seen to actually do, if indeed they do not believe that men ARE the problem and never the victim, that a woman can not abuse her husband or her girlfriend or her children - and i think only a very small portion of the feminist community would believe such a thing impossible but that certainly is not the message that they often seem intent on conveying with their communications (such as ads and speeches).

 

[Falvlun]

This thread seems to be doing precisely what the OP was about.

No one, not even feminists, deny that men have troubles too, and that there are biases in the system against them as well.

But what precisely is wrong with someone focusing their efforts on a particular cause? Just because you fight for women rights doesn't mean you don't care about men rights. It just means people have only so much time in the day, and so much energy, and so much level of interest to be able to combat particular problems at a time.

For instance, I'm much more prone to help out at an animal shelter than a homeless shelter. It's not that I don't care about humans, or that I think that humans have no problems that need fixed. It's just that I am more interested in helping animals and my personal skills and inclinations better suit me towards working for that sort of cause.

If you can accept that I'd prefer to work at an animal shelter than a homeless shelter, why can you not accept that some people would prefer to work on women's issues than men's issues?

 

[idav]

This thread seems to be doing precisely what the OP was about.

No one, not even feminists, deny that men have troubles too, and that there are biases in the system against them as well.

But what precisely is wrong with someone focusing their efforts on a particular cause? Just because you fight for women rights doesn't mean you don't care about men rights. It just means people have only so much time in the day, and so much energy, and so much level of interest to be able to combat particular problems at a time.

For instance, I'm much more prone to help out at an animal shelter than a homeless shelter. It's not that I don't care about humans, or that I think that humans have no problems that need fixed. It's just that I am more interested in helping animals and my personal skills and inclinations better suit me towards working for that sort of cause.

If you can accept that I'd prefer to work at an animal shelter than a homeless shelter, why can you not accept that some people would prefer to work on women's issues than men's issues?

There isn't anything wrong with specializing in certain humanistic aspects which is usually what can relate to us personnaly. The goal is the same to make things better across the board. I think we have far too many cultural stigmas as of genders come with job descriptions. Then the issues bleed over, more women get jobs and higher salaries and then more men on the spotlight for being stay at home dads.

 

[Sunstone]

I personally think women should put themselves second for the sake of their menfolk and focus on men's issues until those are totally and completely resolved before they go off focusing on women's issues. After all, men are so important that they even come before women when it comes to which sexes issues to focus on.

 

[Alceste]

When is the last time anyone heard of a charity to raise funds for male victims of violence..?

I watched a documentary about a group of activists working in some awful American ghetto intervening in confrontations that were likely to escalate to deadly violence.

The Interrupters | FRONTLINE | PBS

 

[Sunstone]

When is the last time anyone heard of a charity to raise funds for male victims of violence..?

Can it truthfully be said there would be more such charities except that feminists get in the way of them?

 

[PolyHedral]

Can it truthfully be said there would be more such charities except that feminists get in the way of them?

No, but that doesn't make the meme any better. In fact, it makes it worse - people don't take the idea of males being victims of e.g. domestic violence (which seems to be the main one) seriously enough to object to it.

 

[Alceste]

No, but that doesn't make the meme any better. In fact, it makes it worse - people don't take the idea of males being victims of e.g. domestic violence (which seems to be the main one) seriously enough to object to it.

That's what life used to be like for women. It took a lot of work to get us away from that paradigm, and we still have work to do. I think if those who share an interest in men's issues were more proactive on their own behalf when it comes to issues like domestic violence, homelessness, custody, etc. they could effect some real change in a positive direction. It's just a little obnoxious to expect feminists to do that work for you. I can offer support and encouragement, and tell you sincerely that I think your goals are worth pursuing, but my activism and community engagement is already being contributed to other causes.

 

[Kerr]

In my country if you take a man and a woman who works at the same job and do the same thing with the same competense, the man generally earns more money then the woman. It is to combat issues like that, that feminism exists. Feminism deals with the issues woman face due to patriarchal structures and all that.

Men have problem to, of course. Thats just not what feminism deals with.

 

[Alceste]

In my country if you take a man and a woman who works at the same job and do the same thing with the same competense, the man generally earns more money then the woman. It is to combat issues like that, that feminism exists. Feminism deals with the issues woman face due to patriarchal structures and all that.

Men have problem to, of course. Thats just not what feminism deals with.

A very sensible answer.

 

[apophenia]

That's what life used to be like for women. It took a lot of work to get us away from that paradigm, and we still have work to do. I think if those who share an interest in men's issues were more proactive on their own behalf when it comes to issues like domestic violence, homelessness, custody, etc. they could effect some real change in a positive direction. It's just a little obnoxious to expect feminists to do that work for you. I can offer support and encouragement, and tell you sincerely that I think your goals are worth pursuing, but my activism and community engagement is already being contributed to other causes.

In that case you can't say that feminism is not gender biased,or make the claim that a man is also a feminist if he stands for equality and against gender discrimination.

If it's every man for himself, and women aren't too fussed about what happens to their husbands, sons and brothers, then lets not maintain a charade.

Feminists have long said that it is men's responsibility to address women's issues. Now I am hearing that in their opinion it is not women's responsibility to address men's issues.

Gender bias much ? Doublespeak much ?

" It's just a little obnoxious to expect feminists to do that work for you." Really ? I thought it was 'us'. Now you are affirming that in your mind it is 'us and them'.

One giant leap backwards.

And this should encourage me to give a damn about women's issues ? Knowing that this is your attitude ? Sweet. Given that the women on RF are among the most thoughtful, that is virtually a statememt that if men are interested in equality, they should be equally disinterested in the plight of women as women are of the plight of men.

I hope the men reading this realise that this means that any time they spend on women's issues will not be reciprocated. We have now been informed that feminists only want equality for women - which is efffectively a nonsensical statement worthy of inclusion in 'Animal Farm'

edit : I should add that I still do give a damn about women's issues.

I give a damn about my partner, my daughter, my granddaughter. I give a damn about beings in general. That is the inevitable result of not being ignorant.

I find this rejection of responsibility toward 'the other gender' repugnant.

Feminism is dead.

Long live enlightened equality.