Volodya
Member
YES it is.
If women want equality then they want equality.
And what they want here is NOT that - no, they don't complain when it suits them, as with the tip earning waitress.
The whole thing just reeks of the good old double standard.
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The flaw in the argument that feminism is bad because it ignores men's issues
- Thread starter Riverwolf
- Start date
YES it is.
If women want equality then they want equality.
And what they want here is NOT that - no, they don't complain when it suits them, as with the tip earning waitress.
The whole thing just reeks of the good old double standard.
No doubt, some people are hypocritical about it. But I wouldn't generalize to all.
InformedIgnorance
Do you 'know' or believe?
And yet there is a significant move towards plus sized models because the standard in modelling is not to be a standard representation of the average member of the public. I don't know about where you are from, but in Adelaide, South Australia we certainly hear from members of feminist movements about how such modelling is sexist and objectifying etc and has ramifications for women's health issues including eating disorders and mental health such as self esteem - this is one of the reasons that they support plus sized modelling.
Personally I would be comfortable generalizing it to many with the caveat that most people are self interested; so it is hardly surprising they behave in such a way as to further their self interests, even if that at times may result in hypocrisy.
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Alceste
Vagabond
Horse pucky. Who is going to make better tips, a hot young guy with charisma and a nice bum or a rude middle aged Chinese lady with thinning hair?
Discrimination in tipping has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with being likable, reasonably attractive and good at your job.
Show me your evidence to the contrary.
This is market driven & reasonable. Moreover, there is actually discrimination against the thin....but they're doing OK.
The ultra-thin models are bad role models when they're ubiquitous. I want to give'm cheeseburgers.
Alceste
Vagabond
I support people with average bodies and a broad range of ages and ethnicities of both genders being portrayed in the media, and dislike both anorexic ideals for women and steroid-enhanced ideals for men. As do we all, I'm sure. I mean all of the feminists.
Volodya
Member
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Volodya
Member
So does the subliminal messaging imparted upon you, via attractive models, NOT affect your purchasing choices?
I'm sure it affects you.
I'm sure you spend more on products that are 'glamorously' advertised.
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Alceste
Vagabond
Why do you intentionally miss the point?
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Alceste
Vagabond
I use Ad block and get all my clothes at thrift shops or farmer's markets.
And I KNOW you're going to get banned if you don't brush up on the forum rules.
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Aquitaine
Well-Known Member
Woah, so you don't just know Alceste's a hypocrite - you KNOW it with capitals?
I'm convinced, Alceste must indeed be a hypocrite. ^_^
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InformedIgnorance
Do you 'know' or believe?
I agree with both of you; they have a very valid argument; however my point was that this is done for female models - never male models, there is no discussion about the effects of male modelling on men's health issues (physical or psychological).
Oh btw, about the tipping - a nice study is available in full text
http://tippingresearch.com/uploads/TipAveJASP.pdf
Of interest which sums things up quite well is the tables at the very end of the piece. Note that the numbers represent the strength of the correlation
Table 1 shows that while average sales, physical attractiveness, service ability and self monitoring were more important than gender, sex was more important than friendliness.
(taken from table 1)
.96 Average Sales
.28 Self-Monitoring
.27 Physical Attractiveness
.27 Service Ability
.12 Sex
.10 Friendliness
.02 Service Experience
Table 2, shows a man's tips significantly depend on their sales and their service ability, then their self monitoring and finally with a very small correlation comes appearance. On the other hand for females while the other figures are similar, their service ability is vastly less important to the amount they are tipped, while their attractiveness is vastly more important.
(taken from Table 2)
WAITERS
.02 Physical Attractiveness
.49 Service Ability
WAITRESSES
.40 Physical Attractiveness
.19 Service Ability
Now just to make sure i have pointed this out clearly enough - their other figures were similar. these are merely the two categories in which there were substantive differences.
Also the sample size (51) was limited, but not so limited as to be something that can be readily dismissed.
edit: I would also point to this article http://changingminds.org/techniques/tipping/articles/gender_tipping.htm but I cannot access the full text on which it is conclusions are based
Oh btw, about the tipping - a nice study is available in full text
http://tippingresearch.com/uploads/TipAveJASP.pdf
Of interest which sums things up quite well is the tables at the very end of the piece. Note that the numbers represent the strength of the correlation
Table 1 shows that while average sales, physical attractiveness, service ability and self monitoring were more important than gender, sex was more important than friendliness.
(taken from table 1)
.96 Average Sales
.28 Self-Monitoring
.27 Physical Attractiveness
.27 Service Ability
.12 Sex
.10 Friendliness
.02 Service Experience
Table 2, shows a man's tips significantly depend on their sales and their service ability, then their self monitoring and finally with a very small correlation comes appearance. On the other hand for females while the other figures are similar, their service ability is vastly less important to the amount they are tipped, while their attractiveness is vastly more important.
(taken from Table 2)
WAITERS
.02 Physical Attractiveness
.49 Service Ability
WAITRESSES
.40 Physical Attractiveness
.19 Service Ability
Now just to make sure i have pointed this out clearly enough - their other figures were similar. these are merely the two categories in which there were substantive differences.
Also the sample size (51) was limited, but not so limited as to be something that can be readily dismissed.
edit: I would also point to this article http://changingminds.org/techniques/tipping/articles/gender_tipping.htm but I cannot access the full text on which it is conclusions are based
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Alceste
Vagabond
Lol. Just double checked. Shorts - four bucks at the thrift shop. Shirt - free at a clothing swap. Underpants - Christmas present from a very practical mother. I think they'd come up past my navel if I didn't scrunch the top down. Flip flops - well, OK, I can't resist a decent pair of shoes. They're brown leather, and soooooo comfortable. Jewelry, my silver wedding ring, a wooden necklace given to me by an Irish casanova, and a pair of really ugly earrings made out of guitar picks. They were a Christmas gift from a ten year old fiddle student and I was teaching him earlier. Last week he asked me if I ever wear them.
Let's see... Glasses, Walmart. Make-up, none. Hair, messy bun, didn't even look in a mirror when I did it this morning. Nothing in it but sunshine and salt sea air. Pits, getting pretty fuzzy. Legs, sticky and covered in mosquito bites.
Such a superficial princess I am! Such a slave to fashion!
Lol.
And I look awesome. Just saying.
Aquitaine
Well-Known Member
Hey, anyone who doesn't take crap from the Fashion Police, has a casual but solid self-confidence, and doesn't aspire to be like one of the Kardashians scores well in my book. Not sure what I'd make of the Guitar Pick earrings though.
Oh and I didn't know the US' less-violent Cousins have WalMarts!
DallasApple
Depends Upon My Mood..
I totally support and worry about my boy children is all I can say!
They are PEOPLE!
They are PEOPLE!
Alceste
Vagabond
Hey, anyone who doesn't take crap from the Fashion Police, has a casual but solid self-confidence, and doesn't aspire to be like one of the Kardashians scores well in my book. Not sure what I'd make of the Guitar Pick earrings though.
Oh and I didn't know the US' less-violent Cousins have WalMarts!
Sadly, yes. Cheapest place to get glasses. I don't get anything else there.
The guitar pick Earrings are a horror. Lol. The kid was so happy though.
Volodya
Member
Why don't you complain that waitresses get more in tips, and is therefore discrimination?
And if we are talking about rules, you calling me an idiot is a personal attack.
Let's remember that in the tipping stakes, women in general make far more, as there are so many of them milking the system - this also applies to unequal benefits for air hostesses, receptionists, actresses etc...
Alceste
Vagabond
I think your suggestion of pooling tips is excellent. You should do what you can immediately to make that happen wherever you're serving. Talk to your boss. Don't forget to include the cooks, bussers, host/esse/s, bartenders, cleaning staff and dishwashers when you're doing the split at the end of the night. Make sure everybody gets an exactly equal amount.
For myself, I always tip 15% unless the service is a) amazing, or b) awful. I don't want to have sex with waiters and waitresses so it doesn't matter what they look like. I just want my food.
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Alceste
Vagabond
With what? I'm serious. It's a great idea. Take all the tips the servers bring in and divide them equally between every employee at the restaurant to cancel out any chance of discrimination, including discrimination between roles (dishwasher vs. waiter).
(I'd go even further and say your restaurant should ideally function as a worker-owned cooperative rather than a private business, with every worker earning a share of the profits equal to the proportion of hours they've put in).
I think it's absolutely outrageous how little cooks, dishwashers and bussers are paid compared to wait staff.