The flaw in the argument that feminism is bad because it ignores men's issues

[Volodya]

ok, good - we agree again!

 

[Alceste]

ok, good - we agree again!

Well great!

 

[PolyHedral]

Horse pucky. Who is going to make better tips, a hot young guy with charisma and a nice bum or a rude middle aged Chinese lady with thinning hair?

Discrimination in tipping has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with being likable, reasonably attractive and good at your job.

Show me your evidence to the contrary.

I think it's a lot less reasonable to think that tipping is equal genderwise than it isn't. Even assuming that the "average" attractiveness is the same either way (which I doubt - I think culture means that women will appear more attractive on average) then there could reasonably be other factors that mean that one gender gets more tips than the other. The one that springs to mind is the wage-gap acting in reverse: if men, on average, have more disposable income, then they might be inclined to tip more. Most men being heterosexual, those tips will be distributed more to women than men.

 

[DallasApple]

Feminists have long said that it is men's responsibility to address women's issues.

Men had ALL the POWER.Men held the wealth!Men wrote all the laws!

That was the whole POINT! Women had no choice but to depend on MEN to make official changes.

Women had to RISE up and say MEN we demand change.Put it on the BOOKS we can VOTE.Put it on the books its ILLEGAL to RAPE your wife.Put it on the books we can sign for a loan from a bank.MEN give women the right to choose to obtain a LEGAL abortion by a REAL doctor. MAKE domestic violence a criminal offense not a private matter!

And as far as that goes its ILLEGAL for a woman to beat or rape her husband.If it wasn't?I would readily sign a petition demanding that change.Its illegal for a woman to abuse or molest her children.If it wasn't again I would join the march.

 

[DallasApple]

but then saying that women should not have to care about men's issues

This is where (or in part) my mind does a flip. Nobody man or woman "has to" care about anything.

But If most of the issues that men have?Were systematic and widespread affecting the majority of men . And were almost completely within women's power /control to change.Or further if it was many women causing the issues for men to begin with then yes..I would think women specifically had a moral /ethical responsibility to help effect changes.

I could then understand the men hounding women calling them out for discrimination, for being responsible for oppressing them and not doing something to help them.

Its more along the lines of what the OP is saying though to me.There are plenty of issues to go around.If I decide I want to do something like donate money to the women's issue in India where they are trying make a LAW that its illegal for a man to rape his wife that doesn't mean I don't "care" that men get raped in prison.I cant stand the thought of ANYONE being raped.

 

[idav]

I think it's a lot less reasonable to think that tipping is equal genderwise than it isn't. Even assuming that the "average" attractiveness is the same either way (which I doubt - I think culture means that women will appear more attractive on average) then there could reasonably be other factors that mean that one gender gets more tips than the other. The one that springs to mind is the wage-gap acting in reverse: if men, on average, have more disposable income, then they might be inclined to tip more. Most men being heterosexual, those tips will be distributed more to women than men.

A fair point. However my other half makes sure that I'm tipping based on performance not looks. I will hear it if an attractive waitress is rude to her and I tip 20%

 

[Alceste]

I think it's a lot less reasonable to think that tipping is equal genderwise than it isn't. Even assuming that the "average" attractiveness is the same either way (which I doubt - I think culture means that women will appear more attractive on average) then there could reasonably be other factors that mean that one gender gets more tips than the other. The one that springs to mind is the wage-gap acting in reverse: if men, on average, have more disposable income, then they might be inclined to tip more. Most men being heterosexual, those tips will be distributed more to women than men.

Well, as a person who basically always tips 15%, I'm not prepared to accept the claim that women are "more attractive" than men (that doesn't make any sense to me, as a mostly heterosexual woman), or the claim that they earn significantly better tips. Not without evidence.

 

[DallasApple]

Well, as a person who basically always tips 15%, I'm not prepared to accept the claim that women are "more attractive" than men (that doesn't make any sense to me, as a mostly heterosexual woman), or the claim that they earn significantly better tips. Not without evidence.

I agree I tip 15% .Period male or female.Thats the starting point.Women are "tippers" too.So the whole idea that its biased and women servers make more because they are more attractive doesn't make sense.

Unless we are talking about hooters.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

In 2009, women’s weekly median earnings were higher than men’s in only four of the 108 occupations for which sufficient data were available to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The four occupations with higher weekly median earnings for women than men were "Other life, physical, and social science technicians" (102.4%), "bakers" (104.0%), "teacher assistants" (104.6%), and "dining room and cafeteria attendants and bartender helpers" (111.1%). The four largest gender wage gaps were found in well-paying occupations such as "Physicians and surgeons" (64.2%), "securities, commodities and financial services sales agents" (64.5%), "financial managers" (66.6%), and "other business operations specialists" (66.9%).

Source

There is some merit to the median wage gap that favors females over males. I'm not sure what is the source of the income disparity, but I have some ideas that the median might be bumped by the sexualized servers tips (like cocktail waitressing, Hooters/ShowMes, etc.).

It isn't as significant of a gap as other occupations when comparing male and female compensation where males are in favor. But it does seem to be present in food service according to the wiki entry.

 

[Alceste]

Source

There is some merit to the median wage gap that favors females over males. I'm not sure what is the source of the income disparity, but I have some ideas that the median might be bumped by the sexualized servers tips (like cocktail waitressing, Hooters/ShowMes, etc.).

It isn't as significant of a gap as other occupations when comparing male and female compensation where males are in favor. But it does seem to be present in food service according to the wiki entry.

Well I'll be damned! It's a ten percent titty tax! I'm going to wager it's not straight women who are responsible for the tipping disparity.

I think pooling tips is a good way to mitigate the discriminatory effects of straight men paying extra for a server with boobs.

 

[PolyHedral]

Well, as a person who basically always tips 15%, I'm not prepared to accept the claim that women are "more attractive" than men (that doesn't make any sense to me, as a mostly heterosexual woman), or the claim that they earn significantly better tips. Not without evidence.

The claim isn't that women are more attractive, but that they appear more attractive, because culturally, women in general place more importance on their appearance than men do.

 

[Alceste]

The claim isn't that women are more attractive, but that they appear more attractive, because culturally, women in general place more importance on their appearance than men do.

Sorry, I'm still not getting it. I still think men in general "appear" more attractive than women in general, especially in the resistant industry. The guys around here look pretty damn good bringin' me mah food. And some of the ladies are downright homely. (The owner is often a middle aged woman with a taste for her product, if you catch my drift.)

 

[DallasApple]

The guys around here look pretty damn good bringin' me mah food.

Especially if you are at La Bear..

 

[Volodya]

Well, as a person who basically always tips 15%, I'm not prepared to accept the claim that women are "more attractive" than men (that doesn't make any sense to me, as a mostly heterosexual woman), or the claim that they earn significantly better tips. Not without evidence.

Get a job as a waitress, then you'll see how uneven it is.

And what's with all this calling for evidence the whole time, how about just deal with it?

 

[Volodya]

I agree I tip 15% .Period male or female.Thats the starting point.Women are "tippers" too.So the whole idea that its biased and women servers make more because they are more attractive doesn't make sense.

Unless we are talking about hooters.

Hooters is a fine example of discrimination - how much tips do men make there.

Why aren't you complaining about this one?

 

[Alceste]

Get a job as a waitress, then you'll see how uneven it is.

And what's with all this calling for evidence the whole time, how about just deal with it?

Yeah, it was a feminist who finally delivered. The gap is 11%, and one of only 4 occupations out of 108 studied where women have an advantage. The advantage in the other 104 occupations goes the other way, in some cases by up to about 60%.

I'm complaining about all of it. I agreed with your proposal that tips should be pooled. Easy fix. Problem solved. What more do you want from me?

Are you trying to educate men to stop giving extra tip money to women? All the feminists here don't discriminate in their tipping, so I don't get why you're blaming us for the boob tax straight men voluntarily pay their pretty waitresses.

 

[PolyHedral]

And what's with all this calling for evidence the whole time, how about just deal with it?

Calling for evidence is good, because it's not possible to acquire statistically significant numbers of anecdotes.

I'm complaining about all of it. I agreed with your proposal that tips should be pooled. Easy fix. Problem solved. What more do you want from me?

This, OTOH, IMO, defeats the whole point of tipping. You might as well say, "No tips are required," increase all the prices 15% and increase everyone's wages by the proportional value.

 

[Alceste]

Hooters is a fine example of discrimination - how much tips do men make there.

Why aren't you complaining about this one?

I think you're not grasping the concept of criticism of a whole social system. When we complain about gender discrimination, you might as well assume we mean all of it. Nobody is going to sit here and list every single specific example of gender discrimination they can think of and criticize it individually.

What about hooters? What about Walmart? What about bank of America? What about Blue Cross? What about CNN? What about Pepsico? Etc.

Pointless.

How about this: People should earn the same pay for the same job, regardless of their gender.

See how easy that is? It even includes Hooters without any special effort.

 

[Alceste]

Calling for evidence is good, because it's not possible to acquire statistically significant numbers of anecdotes.


This, OTOH, IMO, defeats the whole point of tipping. You might as well say, "No tips are required," increase all the prices 15% and increase everyone's wages by the proportional value.

No it doesn't. When I tip, it's the whole experience I'm assessing, not just how I feel about the waiter. Was the food timely and tasty? Were the dishes clean? Were we seated quickly? Were our waters kept full? There are a lot of people contributing to a positive restaurant experience. The waiter is a small part of that.

Personally, I'd rather be tipping the cook and the dishwasher. Carrying a plate of food to a table is not a very important part of the overall picture for me. I eat out to avoid cooking and cleaning, not to avoid moving a plate of food from one place to another.

 

[Revoltingest]

The natural issue with Feminism though is that Feminism by default will ignore any male issue.....because it is about females. There is no Masculinism which addresses male issues unless you count the National Organization of Men Against Amazonion Masterhood also known as NO MA"AM.