The flood in Genesis

[themadhair]

There is evidence for a global deluge, including quick-frozen mammoths with green grass still in their mouths.

Is this a reference to Kent Hovind’s idea that an ice comet hit the earth….? If so, you may want to take a closer look at the effects of rock fragments smashing into the earth under the gravitation well of the sun – because even lumps of ice under those conditions don’t freeze things…


And the flood sort of disagrees with what geologists have found over the last 200 years. You may want to look into that.

 

[Luminous]

God needed some time to regrow the plants and uranus didn't want too many kids.

 

[darkendless]

Is this a reference to Kent Hovind’s idea that an ice comet hit the earth….? If so, you may want to take a closer look at the effects of rock fragments smashing into the earth under the gravitation well of the sun – because even lumps of ice under those conditions don’t freeze things…


And the flood sort of disagrees with what geologists have found over the last 200 years. You may want to look into that.

I love these debates. Obviously anyone who believes in the flood doesn't know what a soil profile is. Sadly, the gullibal don't know that we can dig up the ground and have a look. To put it simply, if there was a great flood, it would be unmistakable. A basic basic example is the fact that in many areas, including my own, there is a consistent pattern of decay of organic matter in the soil. As in, the further i dig down in the ground, the lighter the soil gets and the pattern is consistent. If there was a "great flood" there would be a break in the soil profile near the surface when large amounts of decaying organic matter was washed from the surface. However, there is not. If there was, there would most likely be a lighter coloured soil with darker soil below it, indicating a flood of some kind. So therefore, Genisis forgot about Australia

 

[zenzero]

Friend itwillend,

Well it was intended for those who study the books, whether or not they believe in them. Thanks though.

Enjoyed this statement.
Just curiosity:
*Why discuss without having any belief*?

Love & rgds

 

[Dezzie]

My conclusion was that this story, among a couple others, was not real and was just a story to tell at bedtime or something.

 

[tumbleweed41]

There is evidence for a global deluge, including quick-frozen mammoths with green grass still in their mouths.

The problem is that scientists who have studied floods and scientists who have studied the sedimentary layers of the earth can't find any traces of a universal flood. We should find the geology around the world "beginning with coarse-grained poorly sorted deposits of sand and gravel and boulders from the fast-water stage of the flood. Once a flood recedes, it can leave only one kind of deposit: a single layer of mud" . Instead, we find enormous variety around the world, but mostly we find sedimentary layers that were put down one upon the other over long periods of time
Amazon.com: Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters: Donald R. Prothero, Professor Carl Buell: Books

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

My honest conclusion, is that the story was most likely made up..

Well it was intended for those who study the books, whether or not they believe in them.

Precisely. Folk history and folk lore are selected and refined through generations or oral transmission. They communicate motifs and themes deemed worthy by those cultures. Responding to the OP by challenging the historicity of the Flood is simply ignorant.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Here is what I find in Gensis ch 7 v 11
11: In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Then ch 8 vs 13
13: And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry

We see here that it was dry, yet Noah did not exit.

Then finally
ch 8 vs 14-16
14: And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.
15: And God spake unto Noah, saying,
16: Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.

I can explain the next part if need be, but I believe in that era a month was exactly 30 days. So a full year would have been 360 days, but they exited 10 days after a full year, which led me to 370 days.

The Hebrew month alternates between 29 and 30 days, resulting in an 11-day drift. Rashi argues:

on the twenty-seventh: And they [the rains] started to fall in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month. These are the eleven days by which the solar year exceeds the lunar year, for the judgment of the Generation of the Flood was for a whole year. — [from Eduyoth 2:10]

Note that, while much of the narrative is assigned to J, the verses in question are believed to be P redaction, i.e., harmonizations from the priestly source posited by the documentary hypothesis.

 

[darkendless]

Precisely. Folk history and folk lore are selected and refined through generations or oral transmission. They communicate motifs and themes deemed worthy by those cultures. Responding to the OP by challenging the historicity of the Flood is simply ignorant.

For one, where would the water go. Two, how come geologists can't find evidence for the flood?

Why challenge anything when the flood did not happen at all. Sure, people use the story with care. But aren't some silly fools trying to find the Ark on a mountain in Turkey?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Folk history and folk lore are selected and refined through generations or oral transmission. They communicate motifs and themes deemed worthy by those cultures. Responding to the OP by challenging the historicity of the Flood is simply ignorant.

For one, where would the water go. Two, how come geologists can't find evidence for the flood?

As I said: simply ignorant.

Why challenge anything when the flood did not happen at all.

The one challenging - versus thinking - is you.

 

[darkendless]

As I said: simply ignorant.

The one challenging - versus thinking - is you.

How is it ignorant? Because we don't play philosophical games. Even if you accept that the flood happens there are major problems.

I don't even get your second point. A typical slandering one liner for sure

 

[JMorris]

from the majority of Jayhawker's posts, he has proven himself to be very insulting. he seems to enjoy that

 

[painted wolf]

What I enjoy most about the Flood story is that it shows that not only is God fallible but he can realize when he has made a terrible mistake.

First he buggers up the whole relationship with humanity thing and people get out of hand... then he throws a colossal temper tantrum, killing everything... then he essentially says "my bad, I over reacted and I promise I'll never do it again!"

How the story is viewed shows a great difference between how god is viewed by different groups.
Many (but not all) of the Jews I've talked to about the story see it as god's "woops" moment and in a way a learning experience for this, still new at the job, deity...
Many Christians I've talked to see it as the ultimate act of an authoritarian perfectionist...

It's the difference between a progressive and a static god.

wa:do

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

How is it ignorant?

Because the historicity of the Flood is wholly irrelevant to the topic at hand.

I can (and do) view the Flood as a powerful and enduring mythic narrative evolved and transmitted by a thoughtful culture that cared about what they were communicating. My job as an interested and responsible reader (versus adolescent critic) is to do my very best to understand its context and intended meaning. You don't care a bit about such things, being solely interested in clallenging and dismissing the work as little more than some dumb fiction sloppily patched together by an equally dumb bunch of primitive believers. It's rank chauvinism and intellectually juvenile.

I don't even get your second point.

No doubt ...

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

My honest conclusion, is that the story was most likely made up.

I disagree. There is far too much evidence that some form of global catastrophe effected the worlds civilization at some point in history. Either that or different catastrophes happened in different places. So I believe the story is based on something that actually happened and so should be treasured as an ancient memory. However, I don't see the need to take the Noah story as literal fact.

 

[darkendless]

Because the historicity of the Flood is wholly irrelevant to the topic at hand.

I can (and do) view the Flood as a powerful and enduring mythic narrative evolved and transmitted by a thoughtful culture that cared about what they were communicating. My job as an interested and responsible reader (versus adolescent critic) is to do my very best to understand its context and intended meaning. You don't care a bit about such things, being solely interested in clallenging and dismissing the work as little more than some dumb fiction sloppily patched together by an equally dumb bunch of primitive believers. It's rank chauvinism and intellectually juvenile.

No doubt ...

Versus adolescent critic, thats a bit of a bold assumption Jay. How do you know how old i am firstly, and secondly what does it matter?

The problem with scripture and this is a bright example is you can see it 1000 different ways and its still valid. What use is that when as a society, we are unable to understand the intended meaning of the text. You could do your best, and still be miles off. There are common meanings, and popular meanings, but who's to say they're and more valid than any other? Im not a fan of speculation.
My intellect is not reduced because i dismiss what you see as a valuable philosophical resource.
You can dismiss my work in science but that doesn't make you scientifically redundant does it?

I don't expect you to understand this, you're far to self-absorbed, always have been.

 

[darkendless]

I disagree. There is far too much evidence that some form of global catastrophe effected the worlds civilization at some point in history. Either that or different catastrophes happened in different places. So I believe the story is based on something that actually happened and so should be treasured as an ancient memory. However, I don't see the need to take the Noah story as literal fact.

It definately wasn't a world wide flood, or a flood that even covered the middle east.

I agree that it could represent a catastrophe, but it might not. It could represent a change in something. Who know's what that might be though?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I agree that it could represent a catastrophe, but it might not. It could represent a change in something. Who know's what that might be though?

It don't get much more insightful than this ...

Now, are there any relevant responses to itwillend's question?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

The Hebrew month alternates between 29 and 30 days, resulting in an 11-day drift. Rashi argues:Note that, while much of the narrative is assigned to J, the verses in question are believed to be P redaction, i.e., harmonizations from the priestly source posited by the documentary hypothesis.

Jay I do not have any supporting information in frontof me, but I wonder if you might know. Cuold it be possible that in the day of Noah's era that it was a 30 day calendar?
I am aware that later on it became 29 and 30 days, but I have read elsewhere (I'll try to find it) that 30 days would have been the calendar in that day as they counted the new moons as months.

I look forward to your reply.

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

It definately wasn't a world wide flood, or a flood that even covered the middle east.

I agree that it could represent a catastrophe, but it might not. It could represent a change in something. Who know's what that might be though?

Agreed, not a world wide flood. But I do think it was something that involved flooding. Too many cultures have stories that center around a flood for it to be a coincidence. It could be a very ancient memory of when the Black Sea flooded or a meteor impact that caused drastic weather pattern changes and storms. As you said, who knows?