The flood in Genesis

[tumbleweed41]

You misunderstood me. I was saying I concede to his geological date, not that I have data to give him...

Good, that hat would have been hard to swallow.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I was conceding to your geological evidence. I just worded my original statement bad in the other post.

Really...A "worldwide" flood???? Well, I'll be interested in what you can show.



"Horas"...? What are you talking about?



If you were so "well versed" then you wouldn't have made such a silly statement. The ancient flood stories, I think there are four of them, predate the biblical account and they parallel it. If you don't think so then fine....Then I suggest you become more acquainted with the original stories of the flood before ponder over the copycat version in the bible.....:sarcastic



:sleep:



What is conclusive is the the stories are very...very similar....and it appears the biblical account borrowed from earlier stories. It's not simply a retelling of the same old story. It's a reshaping of the story and then telling that story. Maybe both stories have a common source. At this point we don't know. Even if they did...we see that the similarities are striking as well as the differences. IMO the bible version adapted the story to suit its purpose to its audience.

The Floods of Noah and Gilgamesh

I have read commentators reviews of the "surface" similarities before. However unless you have actually read both yourself, it is clear they read and present so much differently.

You say the bible was retooled or whatever for its audience. However the era of each original story (gilgamesh and the ark) aren't really determined are they? They could be from the same era, and if so why the HORRIBLE abuse of language and literature appeal and distance in quality between the two writings?

Maybe the audience of the bible were more sophisticated? I dunno, like I said to compare the to more than just surface words is stupid to me.

And Jay if I am boring you, stop reading!

 

[Autodidact]

So, itwillend, you agree that the Noachic flood never happened, or not?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

So, itwillend, you agree that the Noachic flood never happened, or not?

Well I will tell you what I think is plausible.
I think that before a world wide flood if it occured, all the continents could have been one (Like Pangea, only not as long ago as this theory indicates)
After the flood, it is possible God caused a seperation of the continents (maybe tower of babel?).
This Pangea like idea could account for the animals spreading back around the world before the continents seperated, cause otherwise how could animals get back to america or where ever if a flood occured after continent seperation?
Of course something of this magnitude could only be plausible if there was divine intervnetion. So is it provable? No, not at all. It is just theory.

Now if the continents were together when the flood occured, how much water would it really take to cover the surface, and do the same problems arise as in a flood for our current placement of continents suggest?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Of course something of this magnitude could only be plausible if there was divine intervnetion. So is it provable? No, not at all. It is just theory.

Just a 'theory' ...

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Just a 'theory' ...

Aren't you proud I didn't pass it off as accepted teachings!

 

[themadhair]

Well I will tell you what I think is plausible.
I think that before a world wide flood if it occured, all the continents could have been one (Like Pangea, only not as long ago as this theory indicates)
After the flood, it is possible God caused a seperation of the continents (maybe tower of babel?).
This Pangea like idea could account for the animals spreading back around the world before the continents seperated, cause otherwise how could animals get back to america or where ever if a flood occured after continent seperation?
Of course something of this magnitude could only be plausible if there was divine intervnetion. So is it provable? No, not at all. It is just theory.

It’s actually disprovable. Some things that spring to mind:

We can analyse the Atlantic sea bed to verify that its spreading speed was roughly consistent over the last 250 million years, something shown by both layer depth and even magnetic bandings, so the timeframe for any pangea is out the window for human existence.

The animals spreading really isn’t helped by biogeography. Creatures genetic information can be used to trace their migratory origins, something which is consistent with the fossil record. You don’t even need to go into genetics to see the obstacle posed by biogeography either – you can observe unique creatures restricted to unique landmasses such as the kangaroo.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I was conceding to your geological evidence. I just worded my original statement bad in the other post.


I have read commentators reviews of the "surface" similarities before. However unless you have actually read both yourself, it is clear they read and present so much differently.

If you are conceding to the geological evidence then why the argument against it or the persistence that the story of Noah could have been true? There's no evidence to support the claim the bible makes for a worldwide flood.

You say the bible was retooled or whatever for its audience. However the era of each original story (gilgamesh and the ark) aren't really determined are they? They could be from the same era, and if so why the HORRIBLE abuse of language and literature appeal and distance in quality between the two writings?

The bible version is a newer version. Some scholars think that they both could've had a common source but to me that's speculation. It appears the bible version is a modified version of an old story.

Maybe the audience of the bible were more sophisticated? I dunno, like I said to compare the to more than just surface words is stupid to me.

And yet qualified people (scholars) do just that. No one said the stories are the same word for word...situation to situation... The writer of the flood story in the bible appears to have taken elements of an old story and reworked it....tis all.....The fact that they are so similar and one predating the other by a few thousand years make me question the biblical account....Shouldn't you be questioning it too instead of taking the account literally?


COMPARISON OF GENESIS AND GILGAMESH

The Floods of Noah and Gilgamesh

 

[themadhair]

COMPARISON OF GENESIS AND GILGAMESH

The Floods of Noah and Gilgamesh

From DP's source:

However, the probability exists that the Biblical account had been preserved either as an oral tradition, or in written form handed down from Noah, through the patriarchs and eventually to Moses, thereby making it actually older than the Sumerian accounts which were restatements (with alterations) to the original.

Please check your sources before posting them. Specifically when the source argues for the opposite of what are debating (that the flood didn't happen).

 

[Just_me_Mike]

It’s actually disprovable. Some things that spring to mind:

We can analyse the Atlantic sea bed to verify that its spreading speed was roughly consistent over the last 250 million years, something shown by both layer depth and even magnetic bandings, so the timeframe for any pangea is out the window for human existence.

The animals spreading really isn’t helped by biogeography. Creatures genetic information can be used to trace their migratory origins, something which is consistent with the fossil record. You don’t even need to go into genetics to see the obstacle posed by biogeography either – you can observe unique creatures restricted to unique landmasses such as the kangaroo.

I obviously have much to learn, thank you...

 

[Autodidact]

Well I will tell you what I think is plausible.
I think that before a world wide flood if it occured, all the continents could have been one (Like Pangea, only not as long ago as this theory indicates)
After the flood, it is possible God caused a seperation of the continents (maybe tower of babel?).
This Pangea like idea could account for the animals spreading back around the world before the continents seperated, cause otherwise how could animals get back to america or where ever if a flood occured after continent seperation?
Of course something of this magnitude could only be plausible if there was divine intervnetion. So is it provable? No, not at all. It is just theory.

Now if the continents were together when the flood occured, how much water would it really take to cover the surface, and do the same problems arise as in a flood for our current placement of continents suggest?

Yes. Plus you would have more problems. If Pangea existed a few thousand years ago, the continents would be speeding apart at a much higher rate of speed than they are.

Now not only are the Chinese, Indians and Egyptians not noticing they're underwater, now they're failing to notice that they're next door to each other and their land is zooming around like a skateboard in a pool.

Basically, it's like this. We've got these smart guys. They're called Geologists. They do this thing. It's called science. It works. They've figured out that there never was such a flood. Further, it turns out that everything they've figured out matches up with Biology, Paleontology, Anthropology and a bunch of other stuff.

If you want to assert that there was, you first have to achieve a Ph.d level of knowledge in Geology and show them why they're wrong. Putzing around in a thread on the internet ain't gonna do it. Science is hard, very hard.

Your other option is to reject science and its methods. Of course, you can't do that on the internet either, can you?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

From DP's source:

Please check your sources before posting them. Specifically when the source argues for the opposite of what are debating (that the flood didn't happen).

Oh, I didn't have a problem with the source itself. I was trying to show the chart of similarities. I think, for speculation sakes, they could have had a common source. One argument is that comparing the two is "stupid" .....which I disagree with.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Yes. Plus you would have more problems. If Pangea existed a few thousand years ago, the continents would be speeding apart at a much higher rate of speed than they are.

Now not only are the Chinese, Indians and Egyptians not noticing they're underwater, now they're failing to notice that they're next door to each other and their land is zooming around like a skateboard in a pool.

Basically, it's like this. We've got these smart guys. They're called Geologists. They do this thing. It's called science. It works. They've figured out that there never was such a flood. Further, it turns out that everything they've figured out matches up with Biology, Paleontology, Anthropology and a bunch of other stuff.

If you want to assert that there was, you first have to achieve a Ph.d level of knowledge in Geology and show them why they're wrong. Putzing around in a thread on the internet ain't gonna do it. Science is hard, very hard.

Your other option is to reject science and its methods. Of course, you can't do that on the internet either, can you?

I agree....

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Your other option is to reject science and its methods. Of course, you can't do that on the internet either, can you?

Well we'll find out one day. You could be right no big deal.
However, suppose the big guy in the sky didn't want the scientist to find these things, so he wiped any trace clean?

I know that is the oldest trick in the book for christians arguing this, but it goes hand in hand with the nature of God that we read about in the bible.

Think about it. God told Moses, "you are going to show my signs to Pharoh. However I am going to harden Pharoh's heart so he won't believe (poor pharoh). So when Pharoh sees some of the signs, even after his own son dies, He still challenges God because why? God hardened his heart again.

So based off the biblical God, I don't think it is out of lie to theorize that God could be playing us all the fools for his own purpose.

Agree?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Well we'll find out one day. You could be right no big deal.
However, suppose the big guy in the sky didn't want the scientist to find these things, so he wiped any trace clean?

I know that is the oldest trick in the book for christians arguing this, but it goes hand in hand with the nature of God that we read about in the bible.

Think about it. God told Moses, "you are going to show my signs to Pharoh. However I am going to harden Pharoh's heart so he won't believe (poor pharoh). So when Pharoh sees some of the signs, even after his own son dies, He still challenges God because why? God hardened his heart again.

So based off the biblical God, I don't think it is out of lie to theorize that God could be playing us all the fools for his own purpose.

Agree?

I rest my case.....:areyoucra

 

[Tristesse]

Well we'll find out one day. You could be right no big deal.
However, suppose the big guy in the sky didn't want the scientist to find these things, so he wiped any trace clean?

I know that is the oldest trick in the book for christians arguing this, but it goes hand in hand with the nature of God that we read about in the bible.

Think about it. God told Moses, "you are going to show my signs to Pharoh. However I am going to harden Pharoh's heart so he won't believe (poor pharoh). So when Pharoh sees some of the signs, even after his own son dies, He still challenges God because why? God hardened his heart again.

So based off the biblical God, I don't think it is out of lie to theorize that God could be playing us all the fools for his own purpose.

Agree?

I can't believe anyone would worship a god that manipulative. It makes me cringe. Why would a god give us a mind capable of reasoning, and than require large leaps of faith to believe in him? Which, by the way the one thing he really wants you to do is just believe in him, sounds like god should provide more evidence, if thats what he really wants.

 

[Autodidact]

Well we'll find out one day. You could be right no big deal.
However, suppose the big guy in the sky didn't want the scientist to find these things, so he wiped any trace clean?

I know that is the oldest trick in the book for christians arguing this, but it goes hand in hand with the nature of God that we read about in the bible.

Think about it. God told Moses, "you are going to show my signs to Pharoh. However I am going to harden Pharoh's heart so he won't believe (poor pharoh). So when Pharoh sees some of the signs, even after his own son dies, He still challenges God because why? God hardened his heart again.

So based off the biblical God, I don't think it is out of lie to theorize that God could be playing us all the fools for his own purpose.

Agree?

Sure, and it follows that:

Science is impossible.
God is a liar.
The entire earth may have been created 37 minutes ago, faked to appear much older.
God may be Satan, the great trickster.

Another option is to join the modern world, give up magical thinking, and try science out. I particularly recommend this if you expect to discuss it on the internet.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

You know at the least I am pointing out from a biblical perspective what the bible actually teaches. This should help you against those that claim God is a teddy bear, or at least the bible represents God (if there is one) as a teddy bear. I realized just like I did growing up that American government was not good! What a revelation that was at age 12, and that our gevernment raped and killed people for evil reasons (rape never has a good reason). I think it is just as important to point biblical truth (oximoron to many) out as a christian to other christians.

I can't tell you how many time I have heard from people who say "I believein God" and then learn what the bible really says about God, they always start back peddling. Really strange thing we as people do, I admit!

 

[Tristesse]

You know at the least I am pointing out from a biblical perspective what the bible actually teaches. This should help you against those that claim God is a teddy bear, or at least the bible represents God (if there is one) as a teddy bear. I realized just like I did growing up that American government was not good! What a revelation that was at age 12, and that our gevernment raped and killed people for evil reasons (rape never has a good reason). I think it is just as important to point biblical truth (oximoron to many) out as a christian to other christians.

I can't tell you how many time I have heard from people who say "I believein God" and then learn what the bible really says about God, they always start back peddling. Really strange thing we as people do, I admit!

I find that a lot of christians I encounter haven't actually read the bible, their just keeping up with family traditions or whatever. Or basing what they know off of "good" feelings they have.

 

[fantome profane]

So based off the biblical God, I don't think it is out of lie to theorize that God could be playing us all the fools for his own purpose.

In that case why would you believe anything written in the Bible? If what you suggest is true then the Bible is the word of a deliberately deceptive “God”.