The Folly of Atheism

[Subduction Zone]

That is exactly the way it is done, and it was done.
Baha'u'llah was proven to be the return of Christ.

Of course, you cannot possibly know that since you never read the book.
As usual, you speak out of ignorance, thinking you know everything.

No, you want others to do your homework for you. This is why you constantly fail in this regard. And no, Baha'u'llah was never shown to be that. It would be more accurate to say that he was the prequel to Baba Looey. I'll do the thnnin around here!

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, I said it was a prediction, a warning to the ruler.
It sufficed in that regard since the prediction came to pass.
Better luck next time.

No you are changing your story. And your claim that it "sufficed" was not supported either. As a prophecy it is a failed prophecy.

This is a problem with theists. When their beliefs are shown to be wrong they cannot admit it. This is why your beliefs are irrational.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, you want others to do your homework for you.

It not MY job to research the Baha'i Faith for you and present evidence. That's your job.
So you are the one who wants me to do your homework for you.
That's called projection.

 

[Trailblazer]

As a prophecy it is a failed prophecy.

As a prediction it succeeded.
As a prophecy it succeeded.
Why? Because it actually came to pass.

This is a problem with theists. When their beliefs are shown to be wrong they cannot admit it. This is why your beliefs are irrational.

You did not show anything.
I know my beliefs are true.
I do not need to prove that to anyone because that is not my responsibility.
Everyone has to do their own homework if they want to know if a belief is true.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It not MY job to research the Baha'i Faith for you and present evidence. That's your job.
So you are the one who wants me to do your homework for you.
That's called projection.

No, that is not my job any more than it is your job to research the Flying Spaghetti Monster (Ramen). You have been making claims. It is your "job" to support those claims. If you cannot support them you support the countering claims that your beliefs are irrational by default. If a person makes a positive assertion that person takes on a burden of proof.

 

[Subduction Zone]

As a prediction it succeeded.
As a prophecy it succeeded.
Why? Because it actually came to pass.

You did not show anything.
I know my beliefs are true.
I do not need to prove that to anyone because that is not my responsibility.
Everyone has to do their own homework if they want to know if a belief is true.

Nope, as a prediction it was overly vague and therefore failed right from the beginning. Overly vague prophecies almost always "come true". That makes them worthless when it comes to supporting a religion.

You did not complain about any of the qualifications when I posted them. That is probably because you could see that they were reasonable. But now you are ignoring those qualifications.

 

[QuestioningMind]

You argue using in effect emotions.
A science checklist
The many meanings of truth

You hold one view of science.
But it is not the only one and again:
Science has limits: A few things that science does not do

You judge other human behavior, but you can't use science to do so. But I guess you still consider this true:
"No wonder there are so many ridiculous religions out there."
If so, scientific evidence please.

Oh please DO explain how expecting verifiable evidence for a claim prior to believing it is in any way shape or form 'using in effect emotions'.

And who, besides YOU has suggested that science should be able to answer EVERYTHING? I certainly haven't. All I have done is state that the scientific method has BY FAR been the most effective methods we've come across for determining how the universe works.

"No wonder there are so many ridiculous religions out there."
If so, scientific evidence please

Here again, you seem to have this bizarre notion that science can answer ANYTHING. How 'ridiculous' something is SUBJECTIVE... what one person considers to be ridiculous another person may not. So, asking for 'scientific evidence' that there are ridiculous religions is in my opinion a ridiculous thing to ask for.

So on MY OPINION there are lots of ridiculous religions out there... in fact, I personally find that ALL of them have some truly ridiculous claims. You may not think that any religion is ridiculous... though I would have to wonder how that can be, since so many religions have completely contradictory claims.

 

[QuestioningMind]

You used emotions again and not science. I do it so, I just admit that I can't claim scientific evidence for it.
As for the universe in the scientific sense is not everything. Some humans care for and about me and I care for and about some humans. The joke is that this universe gave rise to us humans, so parts of the world care for other parts.

I'll ask you again... how exactly is stating that he scientific method has been by far the most effective means we've ever found for determining how the universe works using EMOTIONS?

Some humans care for and about me and I care for and about some humans.

Good for you. Some humans care about me and I happen to care about quite a few other humans.

What does any of that have to do with the reality that the scientific method is unsurpassed in figuring out how the universe works?

 

[QuestioningMind]

Okay, so that there are ridiculous religions out there, is not a scientific fact or has no scientific theory/law to back it up.
Can you admit that?

As I pointed out in a previous post, the ridiculousness of something is a purely SUBJECTIVE matter. Science does NOT deal with such subjects. You may as well be asking for a scientific theory for why strawberry flavored ice cream is the BEST flavor. Science isn't intended to determine a SUBJECTIVE matter like a favorite preference for flavors. So why do you insisting that it should be able to?

 

[Trailblazer]

No, that is not my job any more than it is your job to research the Flying Spaghetti Monster (Ramen).

It is my job to research the Flying Spaghetti Monster, if I want to know if he exists.

You have been making claims. It is your "job" to support those claims.

I do not make any claims that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God. Baha'u'llah made those claims. I just state that I believe His claims.

Baha'u'llah provided evidence to back up His claims. That is what you are obligated to research if you want to know if He was a Messenger of God or not. It is not my job to do your homework. Baha'u'llah wrote that everyone has to do their own homework.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.

If you cannot support them you support the countering claims that your beliefs are irrational by default.

That is illogical. My beliefs are either true or false. Whether they are true or false has nothing to do with whether I can support them or not. I could be a Baha’i who doesn’t bother to talk to atheists, but if my beliefs are true, they are true. Likewise, neither my claims nor any countering claims determine whether my beliefs are irrational. They are either irrational or not.

You can keep waiting for me to prove my beliefs to you or you can do your homework. It’s your choice since you have free will.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103

 

[Trailblazer]

Overly vague prophecies almost always "come true". That makes them worthless when it comes to supporting a religion.

The purpose of the prediction (not prophecy) was not to support the religion. Baha’u’llah was warning the King of what would happen if the King did not heed His call. If you read the passage you would see that. This Tablet to Kaiser Wilhelm I was never intended to be proof that Baha’u’llah was a Prophet/Messenger of God.

You did not complain about any of the qualifications when I posted them. That is probably because you could see that they were reasonable. But now you are ignoring those qualifications.

Those qualifications did not apply to predictions. They applied only to prophecy fulfillment.

Whether Baha’u’llah was the fulfillment of the OT prophecies for the Messiah and the fulfillment of the NT prophecies for the return of Christ is entirely separate from the predictions Baha’u’llah made after He came.

To determine if Baha’u’llah was the fulfillment of the OT prophecies for the Messiah and the fulfillment of the NT prophecies for the return of Christ we have to look at those prophecies and determine if what they say actually came to pass before during and after Baha’u’llah walked the earth

Predictions that Baha’u’llah made either came to pass or not. That can be proven by looking at history. If they came to pass they are successful predictions. Being vague has nothing to do with it. There is no reason why a prediction has to be specific, since it is not being used to prove anything.

By contrast, it is important that at least some of the fulfillment of the OT and NT prophecies are specific, because that is how we know they are pointing specifically to Baha’u’llah.

Below is an example of a prophecy that is specific and there are many more like it. Keep in mind that Baha’u’llah was a prisoner and in banishment and exile for 40 years of His life, so He had no control over what happened to Him.

Micah 7:12 “In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.”

He shall come from Assyria: At that time Assyria was a large area. Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia, now Iran, in the city of Tihran.

and from the fortified cities: Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad. While living in Baghdad, He gained such a large following that the enemies where shocked. Right away He was banished again, this time to the fortified city of Istanbul.

The Governor of the city refused many times to fulfill the orders that he received to banish Him again. Finally forced to follow orders, Baha’u’llah was banished again to the fortified city of Adrianople. He was honored and praised, and shown respect everywhere, until He was finally sent to the most horrific of all places, the fortress of Akka, where it was expected that He would succumb to the terrible conditions.

and from the fortress even to the river: It was while in Baghdad that the Tigris river became a special place, as Baha’u’llah crossed it to the Ridvan Garden. April 21, 1863 was the fulfilment of prophecy, as that was when Baha’u’llah declared to those around Him His Station as the Manifestation of God.

and from sea to sea: After His banishment in Baghdad, His exile was by way of the Black Sea. Still a prisoner He crossed the Black Sea from Sinope on His way to Constantinople. After the banishment in Adrianople, He crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Gallipolis in Turkey, embarking at Alexandria, Egypt, then on to the fortress of 'Akka, the most desolate of cities.

and from mountain to mountain: The time in Baghdad was turbulent with opposition. To protect His family and companions Baha’u’llah went to the Kurdistan mountains. There He lived in poverty, but the area was magnetized by His presence. After two years, He was persuaded to return to Baghdad.

The other mountain was in Israel, Mount Carmel, where He had docked before His final journey to Akka. Later He had a chance to return to Mount Carmel, to pitch His tent. Here He wrote the Tablet Of Carmel, surrounded by pilgrims looking for the return of Christ to descend from heaven. Mount Carmel is the headquarters of the Baha’i Faith. What we see there now is the fulfillment of many other prophecies.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is my job to research the Flying Spaghetti Monster, if I want to know if he exists.

I do not make any claims that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God. Baha'u'llah made those claims. I just state that I believe His claims.

Baha'u'llah provided evidence to back up His claims. That is what you are obligated to research if you want to know if He was a Messenger of God or not. It is not my job to do your homework. Baha'u'llah wrote that everyone has to do their own homework.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.


That is illogical. My beliefs are either true or false. Whether they are true or false has nothing to do with whether I can support them or not. I could be a Baha’i who doesn’t bother to talk to atheists, but if my beliefs are true, they are true. Likewise, neither my claims nor any countering claims determine whether my beliefs are irrational. They are either irrational or not.

You can keep waiting for me to prove my beliefs to you or you can do your homework. It’s your choice since you have free will.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103

Please, you have been the one claiming that you make believe friend exists. That puts the burden of proof upon you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The purpose of the prediction (not prophecy) was not to support the religion. Baha’u’llah was warning the King of what would happen if the King did not heed His call. If you read the passage you would see that. This Tablet to Kaiser Wilhelm I was never intended to be proof that Baha’u’llah was a Prophet/Messenger of God.

Those qualifications did not apply to predictions. They applied only to prophecy fulfillment.

Whether Baha’u’llah was the fulfillment of the OT prophecies for the Messiah and the fulfillment of the NT prophecies for the return of Christ is entirely separate from the predictions Baha’u’llah made after He came.

To determine if Baha’u’llah was the fulfillment of the OT prophecies for the Messiah and the fulfillment of the NT prophecies for the return of Christ we have to look at those prophecies and determine if what they say actually came to pass before during and after Baha’u’llah walked the earth

Predictions that Baha’u’llah made either came to pass or not. That can be proven by looking at history. If they came to pass they are successful predictions. Being vague has nothing to do with it. There is no reason why a prediction has to be specific, since it is not being used to prove anything.

By contrast, it is important that at least some of the fulfillment of the OT and NT prophecies are specific, because that is how we know they are pointing specifically to Baha’u’llah.

Below is an example of a prophecy that is specific and there are many more like it. Keep in mind that Baha’u’llah was a prisoner and in banishment and exile for 40 years of His life, so He had no control over what happened to Him.

Micah 7:12 “In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.”

He shall come from Assyria: At that time Assyria was a large area. Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia, now Iran, in the city of Tihran.

and from the fortified cities: Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad. While living in Baghdad, He gained such a large following that the enemies where shocked. Right away He was banished again, this time to the fortified city of Istanbul.

The Governor of the city refused many times to fulfill the orders that he received to banish Him again. Finally forced to follow orders, Baha’u’llah was banished again to the fortified city of Adrianople. He was honored and praised, and shown respect everywhere, until He was finally sent to the most horrific of all places, the fortress of Akka, where it was expected that He would succumb to the terrible conditions.

and from the fortress even to the river: It was while in Baghdad that the Tigris river became a special place, as Baha’u’llah crossed it to the Ridvan Garden. April 21, 1863 was the fulfilment of prophecy, as that was when Baha’u’llah declared to those around Him His Station as the Manifestation of God.

and from sea to sea: After His banishment in Baghdad, His exile was by way of the Black Sea. Still a prisoner He crossed the Black Sea from Sinope on His way to Constantinople. After the banishment in Adrianople, He crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Gallipolis in Turkey, embarking at Alexandria, Egypt, then on to the fortress of 'Akka, the most desolate of cities.

and from mountain to mountain: The time in Baghdad was turbulent with opposition. To protect His family and companions Baha’u’llah went to the Kurdistan mountains. There He lived in poverty, but the area was magnetized by His presence. After two years, He was persuaded to return to Baghdad.

The other mountain was in Israel, Mount Carmel, where He had docked before His final journey to Akka. Later He had a chance to return to Mount Carmel, to pitch His tent. Here He wrote the Tablet Of Carmel, surrounded by pilgrims looking for the return of Christ to descend from heaven. Mount Carmel is the headquarters of the Baha’i Faith. What we see there now is the fulfillment of many other prophecies.

If you are not going to approach this rationally there is no way to explain your errors to you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Please, you have been the one claiming that you make believe friend exists. That puts the burden of proof upon you.

First, God is not my friend...
Second, nobody can prove God exists.
So I am off the hook.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you are not going to approach this rationally there is no way to explain your errors to you.

More obfuscation.
That is what atheists do when they cannot respond to what I presented.
No worries, I'm used to it.
I talk to atheists for a living.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Oh please DO explain how expecting verifiable evidence for a claim prior to believing it is in any way shape or form 'using in effect emotions'.

And who, besides YOU has suggested that science should be able to answer EVERYTHING? I certainly haven't. All I have done is state that the scientific method has BY FAR been the most effective methods we've come across for determining how the universe works.

"No wonder there are so many ridiculous religions out there."
If so, scientific evidence please

Here again, you seem to have this bizarre notion that science can answer ANYTHING. How 'ridiculous' something is SUBJECTIVE... what one person considers to be ridiculous another person may not. So, asking for 'scientific evidence' that there are ridiculous religions is in my opinion a ridiculous thing to ask for.

So on MY OPINION there are lots of ridiculous religions out there... in fact, I personally find that ALL of them have some truly ridiculous claims. You may not think that any religion is ridiculous... though I would have to wonder how that can be, since so many religions have completely contradictory claims.

If science can't answer everything, then how come you expect evidence for a claim?
If you know that there might not be evidence, then why start with the expectation of evidence?

As for "the scientific method has BY FAR been the most effective methods we've come across for determining how the universe works" I understand what you are saying as a worldview, but it is subjective. Or rather here is why I am going to ask for evidence. Unless you have scientific evidence how the universe is important and not that you feel that it is important, then we are back to this:
"Oh please DO explain how expecting verifiable evidence for a claim prior to believing it is in any way shape or form 'using in effect emotions'."
You attach value to scientific evidence, but if science can't explain everything, then it might be the case that there is no evidence for the fact that scientific evidence has value. It might be that it is your opinion that: "the scientific method has BY FAR been the most effective methods we've come across for determining how the universe works" and if that is the case, then how come you speak for a "we"?

The folly of atheism has nothing to do with atheism or non-religion versus religion. It has to do with the fact, that some people feel they can speak for a "we", that is not there.
I accept this as your opinion: "the scientific method has BY FAR been the most effective methods we've come across for determining how the universe works", but would you please stop claiming a "we".
I get that religions are ridiculous to you, but that is an opinion and then you turn around make your opinion universal for a "we".
The problem is not religion or science. It is that some humans claim a "we", that is not there. No human talks for all humans as such and that includes you and I.
So that is it. I don't accept that you can talk for a "we" simply by using a "we". Neither do I accept that if somebody do it in the name of religion.

So how come this is about emotions? It is so, because you in effect state what is import to you. I accept that and I don't find it ridiculous(an emotion), but you don't speak for a "we", just because you use a "we". That is what you have in common with some religious humans. Some humans think that they can speak for a "we" about what is important for all humans.
But if that is so important to speak for all humans maybe that is it is important to recognize that what is important is an emotion and that other humans might not share your individual emotions.
So if you want to find common ground for a "we", then maybe it is not the most effective method to use words like "ridiculous" and then use one's own individual opinion(emotion) of importance and declare it so for all, a "we".
So if science can't explain everything, then for a "we" as all humans as a sort of every human, you might want to consider if you indeed speak for every human and what your evidence is for that.

In other words, either you are trying to speak of all humans and if so, then you might reconsider how you do that or you are only speaking of a limited group of "we" versus "them", those who hold ridiculous views.
So what is it, who are you speaking for and to?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I'll ask you again... how exactly is stating that he scientific method has been by far the most effective means we've ever found for determining how the universe works using EMOTIONS?

Some humans care for and about me and I care for and about some humans.

Good for you. Some humans care about me and I happen to care about quite a few other humans.

What does any of that have to do with the reality that the scientific method is unsurpassed in figuring out how the universe works?

Already answer above.

 

[Subduction Zone]

First, God is not my friend...
Second, nobody can prove God exists.
So I am off the hook.

You keep refuting your own claims.

 

[Subduction Zone]

More obfuscation.
That is what atheists do when they cannot respond to what I presented.
No worries, I'm used to it.
I talk to atheists for a living.

No, I get tired of the same nonsense time after time.

It appears that at best you did not understand the list that was given that would make your reliance on prophecies rational. We should discuss that first.

 

[Trailblazer]

You keep refuting your own claims.

Yet you cannot explain how.