The Folly of Atheism

[ratiocinator]

God appears to exist to almost all people in the world.

No, it doesn't. Many, many different (and incompatible) gods appear to exist to people (not to mention many other, equally unevidenced beliefs). Whichever god(s) you believe in, most people in the world think you are wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, it doesn't. Many, many different (and incompatible) gods appear to exist to people (not to mention many other, equally unevidenced beliefs). Whichever god(s) you believe in, most people in the world think you are wrong.

Well, that is true. People do have different god beliefs even though there is only one true God.

 

[Subduction Zone]

God appears that way only to you and other atheists.
God appears to exist to almost all people in the world.

According to sociologists Ariela Keysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera's review of numerous global studies on atheism, there are 450 to 500 million positive atheists and agnostics worldwide (7% of the world's population), with China having the most atheists in the world (200 million convinced atheists).[5] Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia

That means that 93% of the world population believes in God. 84 percent of the world population has a faith and those faiths all have some kind of Founder, what I refer to as a Messenger.

Obviously God is not hiding from everyone since most people believe in God.

If you are basing that upon the Bible that won't fly, since God did not do all the things that men wrote about in the OT. If you are basing that upon what you see in the world, that evil is attributable to humans, not to God.

I have plenty of evidence in the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. Sorry you don't like it.

God is not hiding nor does God punish people who do not find Him. I am not a Christian so I do not believe what they believe.

Your condescension is unbecoming. Thank God all atheists do not talk down to believers as if they are superior. You are not. People who tear others down only do that to raise themselves up. It is a sign of insecurity. Atheists who are secure in their non-belief never tell believers they cannot think rationally. They just say they do not believe in god.

We went over your evidence claims, you seem to forget that you had none. Or perhaps you found some since we past spoke. What rational reliable evidence do you have?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

We went over your evidence claims, you seem to forget that you had none. Or perhaps you found some since we past spoke. What rational reliable evidence do you have?

Now since you are skeptical about rationally reliable evidence, you might ask yourself: How come rationally reliable evidence matters? It follows indirectly that you would only ask for rationally reliable evidence, because it matters. When you then check that you figure out that it subjectively matters to you and there is no objective, rational evidence for it.

So here is what I learned already as a non-religious human: What matters to a human is subjective. If you start there instead of what world is with rational, reliable, objective evidence, then what matters changes.
I am a subjectivist in human sense and I use science, when it matters to me. But I am aware of the limits of science:
Science has limits: A few things that science does not do

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Multiple atheists who are irrational..

Irony continues-- this ought to be .... amusing. Let's see if you can manage to be rational for a lovely, and different approach...

Anyone who thinks they can know more than an All-Knowing God is irrational, because that is impossible.
Case closed.

Indeed... that would be logical. Except? Looking at the ONLY thing that goddies have going for them? Is their Holey Books.

And? Looking at the descriptions of these ... ahem... "holey" books? We see a god who is dumber-- by a lot-- than the majority of humans on Earth, atheists included.

Your god is no different: You claim it knows everything-- yet? IT DOES NOT KNOW HOW TO CONVINCE THE WORLD IT IS REAL.

Just like THAT? Your claim is destroyed.

Case Closed.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Now since you are skeptical about rationally reliable evidence, you might ask yourself: How come rationally reliable evidence matters? It follows indirectly that you would only ask for rationally reliable evidence, because it matters. When you then check that you figure out that it subjectively matters to you and there is no objective, rational evidence for it.

So here is what I learned already as a non-religious human: What matters to a human is subjective. If you start there instead of what world is with rational, reliable, objective evidence, then what matters changes.
I am a subjectivist in human sense and I use science, when it matters to me. But I am aware of the limits of science:
Science has limits: A few things that science does not do

There is no conversation between us until you acknowledge the clear error that you made earlier. Or do you make obvious errors and forget the corrections?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No, I do not know that but you think you know that.
Most atheists think only they are rational.
They say all religious believers are irrational because in their mind we have to be, since we disagree with them about God..

No. We do not think you are irrational because you disagree.

We think you are irrational because 100% of your "arguments" in support of your god? Are irrational. Arguments-- not the person.

You cannot have a "good" god who permits EVIL. Or worse-- deliberately allows/creates/permits Infinite Evil to exist.

To claim such beings are both good and do Great Evil? Is an Irrational Claim. You cannot have a square-circle!

 

[usfan]

You cannot have a "good" god who permits EVIL. Or worse-- deliberately allows/creates/permits Infinite Evil to exist.

This is fallacious reasoning.
1. IF.. there is a God/Creator, Who embedded a moral 'sense' in humanity, THEN... HE is the source of all moral judgments. You cannot claim a higher Authority than God Himself.
2. IF.. this is a godless universe, there is no Absolute morality, but only relativity and expediency, for an individual agenda. A-morality is all you can logically have with A-theism.
3. Your confusion about free will & human evil, to conclude, 'God is evil!', because He allows it, is absurd. Evil is all around the human experience, and we have only ourselves to blame.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

There is no conversation between us until you acknowledge the clear error that you made earlier. Or do you make obvious errors and forget the corrections?

Yes, a part of the world is objective. If I overdid the subjective part, I will admit that and maybe forget it again. I am human.
So you can have all your objective evidence and point out when I am mistaken. I can't even remember it now, but no doubt I made a mistake.
So now tell me how objective evidence matters? How science matters and what not?

 

[usfan]

Your god is no different: You claim it knows everything-- yet? IT DOES NOT KNOW HOW TO CONVINCE THE WORLD IT IS REAL.

You make flawed conclusions regarding the reasons God does not present a conspicuous presence. There are many other possibilities than, 'no God!' That is a false dilemma.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

This is fallacious reasoning.
1. IF.. there is a God/Creator, Who embedded a moral 'sense' in humanity, THEN... HE is the source of all moral judgments. You cannot claim a higher Authority than God Himself..

MIGHT MAKES RIGHT MORAL FAIL. That is the sum of your "argument".

2. IF.. this is a godless universe, there is no Absolute morality, but only relativity and expediency, for an individual agenda. A-morality is all you can logically have with A-theism..

Correct: HUMANS CHOOSE what is moral and what isn't. That's how it works.

3. Your confusion about free will & human evil, to conclude, 'God is evil!', because He allows it, is absurd. Evil is all around the human experience, and we have only ourselves to blame.

LOL!

No-- IF your claim that "god has all the power" IS TRUE?

THEN it logically follows as Night follows Day: Your god is RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL EVIL.

Period.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You make flawed conclusions regarding the reasons God does not present a conspicuous presence. There are many other possibilities than, 'no God!' That is a false dilemma.

Nope... merely the most likely is "no god" because that is the simplest.

Your god could be evil (but cannot be GOOD)

Your god could be a mental defective and/or incompetent.

Your god could be maliciously indifferent.

Your god may have died or ceased to operate due to a lack of something essential.... batteries? Cream puffs? Virgin sacrifices?

Your god may have Left The Building Forever-- same as not existing.

Your god may have been Arrested by a Higher God, for being capriciously evil.

Your god may be taking an extended nap, what with being all shagged out from a prolonged Squawk. And likely is pining for the Fjords too.

You god may have been de-created when he Snapped the Universe into existence-- having exceeded his Power Allotment. Alas, he should have used a Power Glove instead...

I can do this ALL DAY-- and everything I listed above? IS BETTER BY A MILLION TIMES, THAN ALL OF YOUR EXCUSES SO FAR...

 

[Trailblazer]

We went over your evidence claims, you seem to forget that you had none. Or perhaps you found some since we past spoke. What rational reliable evidence do you have?

evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. https://www.google.com/search

I had nothing that was evidence to you.
I have what is evidence to me because what I have indicates to me that my beliefs are true.

No, I doubt I will ever have any evidence that indicates to you that my beliefs are true because your criteria for evidence is different than mine.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your god is no different: You claim it knows everything-- yet? IT DOES NOT KNOW HOW TO CONVINCE THE WORLD IT IS REAL.

My God knows how, it just chooses not to.
That is what an omnipotent God does, it makes its own choices.
God is not your short order cook.

You see Bob, God does not want certain people to believe in Him, so that is why he does not convince everyone.
God separates the wheat from the chaff by using Messengers.

“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

 

[Trailblazer]

You cannot have a "good" god who permits EVIL.

The good God is not responsible to eradicate the evil that humans created.
People are responsible for their own evil actions.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

My God knows how, it just chooses not to..

That is even WORSE! It means you admit your god is a dirtbag/bully-- capriciously evil.

That is what an omnipotent God does, it makes its own choices..

Might Makes Right-- Again? A Failed Moral Stance-- yet you keep using it over and over ... ! Why?

God is not your short order cook..

So? I did not ask for food-- I asked that your god Be RESPONSIBLE.... but you said it does not WANT to be responsible in any way...

Exactly like a Dead Beat Dad skipping out on paternity payments...

You see Bob, God does not want certain people to believe in Him, so that is why he does not convince everyone.
God separates the wheat from the chaff by using Messengers..

EVIL. So you agree? Your god is imperfect, and a Bully. A capricious monster even...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The good God is not responsible to eradicate the evil that humans created.
People are responsible for their own evil actions.

But we have firmly established YOUR GOD IS ANYTHING BUT GOOD.

So you have THAT problem to deal with....

Obviously, your god is OKAY WITH EVIL-- or doesn't care, or WANTS the evil to be there.

Based on the ugly way your god Plays Special Favorites? I'm going to go with "wants the evil".

Proving yet again, your god is evil-- not an atom of good in it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. https://www.google.com/search

I had nothing that was evidence to you.
I have what is evidence to me because what I have indicates to me that my beliefs are true.

No, I doubt I will ever have any evidence that indicates to you that my beliefs are true because your criteria for evidence is different than mine.

What is the body of facts that support your beliefs? You never seem to give any. From what I have seen all you have are feelings and failed prophesies.

You forgot the all important qualifier that I use so often it should be a given. You need reliable evidence to have a rational belief. And if only you think that your evidence is reliable then by definition it is not.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is even WORSE! It means you admit your god is a dirtbag/bully-- capriciously evil.


Might Makes Right-- Again? A Failed Moral Stance-- yet you keep using it over and over ... ! Why?


So? I did not ask for food-- I asked that your god Be RESPONSIBLE.... but you said it does not WANT to be responsible in any way...

Exactly like a Dead Beat Dad skipping out on paternity payments...


EVIL. So you agree? Your god is imperfect, and a Bully. A capricious monster even...

Believe whatever delusions you want to believe about God.
Just don't expect me to respond to them anymore.
If you want to think you have won, go on ahead and think that.
It does not bother me because I know God is benevolent.
Keep in mind that you can never win against an omnipotent God.
That's gotta hurt, but God gave you the choice and you made it.
You can fight the god you don't believe in for the rest of your life and into the afterlife.
I cannot save you from that, only you can save yourself.

 

[Trailblazer]

But we have firmly established YOUR GOD IS ANYTHING BUT GOOD.

So you have THAT problem to deal with....

Obviously, your god is OKAY WITH EVIL-- or doesn't care, or WANTS the evil to be there.

Based on the ugly way your god Plays Special Favorites? I'm going to go with "wants the evil".

Proving yet again, your god is evil-- not an atom of good in it.

You have established your delusions about God.
That is all that has been established.
I have no problems to deal with because I know God is benevolent.