The Folly of Atheism

[Trailblazer]

What is the body of facts that support your beliefs? You never seem to give any. From what I have seen all you have are feelings and failed prophesies.

There were no failed prophecies. Everything Baha'u'llah predicted came to pass.
Baha'u'llah was infallible so He did not make any mistakes.

I will be posting a new thread entitled "Evidence that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God" because @ Left Coast asked me to post that thread and provide evidence. I was going to do it this weekend but I was too busy fielding posts on that new thread I posted Friday night. Now the evidence for Baha'u'llah thread will have to wait until next weekend.

You forgot the all important qualifier that I use so often it should be a given. You need reliable evidence to have a rational belief. And if only you think that your evidence is reliable then by definition it is not.

IF you mean reliable in a scientific sense nobody can ever have that kind of evidence for a religious belief, but if you mean it can be relied upon that is a different story. I do not determine what is reliable for anyone except myself.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You have established your delusions about God..

Dude! I'm only going by YOUR DESCRIPTIONS here... I do not believe in any god, yours or otherwise.

I have no delusions-- JUST YOUR DESCRIPTIONS. 100%

I have no problems to deal with because I know God is benevolent.

Irony duly noted-- delusions... yeah... that'd be you, thinking your god is good.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

There were no failed prophecies. Everything Baha'u'llah predicted came to pass.

Absolutely false.

 

[Trailblazer]

Absolutely false.

Prove it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There were no failed prophecies. Everything Baha'u'llah predicted came to pass.
Baha'u'llah was infallible so He did not make any mistakes.

I will be posting a new thread entitled "Evidence that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God" because @ Left Coast asked me to post that thread and provide evidence. I was going to do it this weekend but I was too busy fielding posts on that new thread I posted Friday night. Now the evidence for Baha'u'llah thread will have to wait until next weekend.

IF you mean reliable in a scientific sense nobody can ever have that kind of evidence for a religious belief, but if you mean it can be relied upon that is a different story. I do not determine what is reliable for anyone except myself.

Of course there are failed prophecies. You could not find one valid one.


And you should pause and think what it means that there is no reliable evidence for a god. That tells you that such beliefs are irrational..

 

[Subduction Zone]

Prove it.

If you could reason without prejudice you would see that he has already made a case that you had no answer to except for denial.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Prove it.

LOL! That's not how it works-- you made this incredibly unlikely claim-- that your Magic Special Teacher's Pet "prophesied" and it was all "true".

All I have to say? Is no, it's not-- it is up to YOU to prove it WAS.

Which you admit elsewhere, that you can't.... so I'm correct-- all false.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course there are failed prophecies. You could not find one valid one.

A prophecy is only a failed prophecy if what was predicted did not come to pass...
Name me one prediction that Baha'u'llah made that did not come to pass.

And you should pause and think what it means that there is no reliable evidence for a god. That tells you that such beliefs are irrational..

And you should pause and think what it means that there is no scientific evidence for God. That tells you that such evidence is not obtainable and it is irrational to expect to obtain such evidence for an immaterial God.

There is reliable evidence for God, it is the Messengers of God and their scriptures.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you could reason without prejudice you would see that he has already made a case that you had no answer to except for denial.

Your obfuscation does nothing for your credibility.
There were no failed prophecies. Everything Baha'u'llah predicted came to pass.
If you can refute that you will have a case. Otherwise you have no case.
Have fun.

 

[Subduction Zone]

A prophecy is only a failed prophecy if what was predicted did not come to pass...
Name me one prediction that Baha'u'llah made that did not come to pass.

That is incorrect. You are far too generous. Some prophecies fail at the get go. If a prophecy is over broad. If a prophecy is of something that is expected, those are failed prophecies in a religious sense.

Worse yet you just admitted defeat. You tried to shift the burden of proof. That demonstrates that you know that you are wrong. You really should be a bit ashamed of yourself.

And you should pause and think what it means that there is no scientific evidence for God. That tells you that such evidence is not obtainable and it is irrational to expect to obtain such evidence for an immaterial God.

There is reliable evidence for God, it is the Messengers of God and their scriptures.

I know what it means. Either there is no God, or as in your case, your God is evil. And if there is reliable evidence for your God why have you totally failed to post any? You contradict yourself again.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Your obfuscation does nothing for your credibility.
There were no failed prophecies. Everything Baha'u'llah predicted came to pass.
If you can refute that you will have a case. Otherwise you have no case.
Have fun.

Please no false claims. Where is the obfuscation?

Let's go over the prophecies one at a time. Meanwhile you might read this, it is written about Biblical prophecies, but it applies to your equally:

Biblical prophecies - RationalWiki

Or you could merely follow these more than reasonable guidelines:

1. It must be accurate. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not accurate, because knowledge (and thus foreknowledge) excludes inaccurate statements. TLDR: It's true.
2. It must be in the Bible. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not in the Bible, because Biblical by definition foreknowledge can only come from the Bible itself, rather than modern reinterpretations of the text. TLDR: It's in plain words in the Bible.
3. It must be precise and unambiguous. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if meaningless philosophical musings or multiple possible ideas could fulfill the foreknowledge, because ambiguity prevents one from knowing whether the foreknowledge was intentional rather than accidental. TLDR: Vague "predictions" don't count.
4. It must be improbable. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of a pure guess, because foreknowledge requires a person to actually know something true, while a correct guess doesn't mean that the guesser knows anything. This also excludes contemporary beliefs that happened be true but were believed to be true without solid evidence. TLDR: Lucky guesses don't count.
5. It must have been unknown. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of an educated guess based off contemporary knowledge, because foreknowledge requires a person to know a statement when it would have been impossible, outside of supernatural power, for that person to know it. TLDR: Ideas of the time don't count.

 

[Trailblazer]

If a prophecy is of something that is expected, those are failed prophecies in a religious sense.

Did anyone expect WWI and WWII in 1870? Prove it.

You tried to shift the burden of proof.

You have the burden of proof because you made the claim the prophecies failed. Prove it.
Prove that what Baha'u'llah predicted did not come to pass.

And if there is reliable evidence for your God why have you totally failed to post any? You contradict yourself again.

I already told you I plan to post a thread on evidence for Baha'u'llah as soon as I have time, not that I am obligated to, but I promised @ Left Coast I would, and I keep my promises.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Did anyone expect WWI and WWII in 1870? Prove it.

You have the burden of proof because you made the claim the prophecies failed. Prove it.
Prove that what Baha'u'llah predicted did not come to pass.

Where is the prophecy. I am betting that it fails condition #1.

I already told you I plan to post a thread on evidence for Baha'u'llah as soon as I have time, not that I am obligated to, but I promised @ Left Coast I would, and I keep my promises.

Fine, when you post the evidence then you can claim that it exists.

 

[Trailblazer]

Let's go over the prophecies one at a time. Meanwhile you might read this, it is written about Biblical prophecies, but it applies to your equally:

Biblical prophecies - RationalWiki

Or you could merely follow these more than reasonable guidelines:

1. It must be accurate. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not accurate, because knowledge (and thus foreknowledge) excludes inaccurate statements. TLDR: It's true.
2. It must be in the Bible. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not in the Bible, because Biblical by definition foreknowledge can only come from the Bible itself, rather than modern reinterpretations of the text. TLDR: It's in plain words in the Bible.
3. It must be precise and unambiguous. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if meaningless philosophical musings or multiple possible ideas could fulfill the foreknowledge, because ambiguity prevents one from knowing whether the foreknowledge was intentional rather than accidental. TLDR: Vague "predictions" don't count.
4. It must be improbable. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of a pure guess, because foreknowledge requires a person to actually know something true, while a correct guess doesn't mean that the guesser knows anything. This also excludes contemporary beliefs that happened be true but were believed to be true without solid evidence. TLDR: Lucky guesses don't count.
5. It must have been unknown. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of an educated guess based off contemporary knowledge, because foreknowledge requires a person to know a statement when it would have been impossible, outside of supernatural power, for that person to know it. TLDR: Ideas of the time don't count.

If you want to see just how accurate prophecies can be, I suggest you read this book:
Thief in the Night by William Sears

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Did anyone expect WWI and WWII in 1870? Prove it.

You have the burden of proof because you made the claim the prophecies failed. Prove it.
Prove that what Baha'u'llah predicted did not come to pass.

Where is the prophecy. I am betting that it fails condition #1.

Keep in mind that this was not a prophecy, it was a vision "We have seen you covered with......"
Baha'u'llah was not trying to prove anything, He was just warning Kaiser Wilhelm I what would happen if he did not heed His call.

“O KING of Berlin! Give ear unto the Voice calling from this manifest Temple: Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Everlasting, the Peerless, the Ancient of Days. Take heed lest pride debar thee from recognizing the Dayspring of Divine Revelation, lest earthly desires shut thee out, as by a veil, from the Lord of the Throne above and of the earth below. Thus counselleth thee the Pen of the Most High. He, verily, is the Most Gracious, the All-Bountiful. Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power (Napoleon III), and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves.Be warned, be of them who reflect… O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 39

 

[Trailblazer]

LOL! That's not how it works-- you made this incredibly unlikely claim-- that your Magic Special Teacher's Pet "prophesied" and it was all "true".

All I have to say? Is no, it's not-- it is up to YOU to prove it WAS.

Which you admit elsewhere, that you can't.... so I'm correct-- all false.

It is history that Napoleon III fell from power in1870.
It is history that WWI and WWII came to pass.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If you want to see just how accurate prophecies can be, I suggest you read this book:
Thief in the Night by William Sears

That is not the way it is done. Surely you know that by now.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Keep in mind that this was not a prophecy, it was a vision "We have seen you covered with......"
Baha'u'llah was not trying to prove anything, He was just warning Kaiser Wilhelm I what would happen if he did not heed His call.

“O KING of Berlin! Give ear unto the Voice calling from this manifest Temple: Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Everlasting, the Peerless, the Ancient of Days. Take heed lest pride debar thee from recognizing the Dayspring of Divine Revelation, lest earthly desires shut thee out, as by a veil, from the Lord of the Throne above and of the earth below. Thus counselleth thee the Pen of the Most High. He, verily, is the Most Gracious, the All-Bountiful. Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power (Napoleon III), and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves.Be warned, be of them who reflect… O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 39

Yet you claimed it was a prophecy. Do you see how it failed? Look at conditions 1, 3, and 4. It is not accurate. It is not unambiguous. And it is not surprising that a war torn area would have more wars.

Look at the prophecies of Nostradamus. He was not a seer. He was just a man that understood how to make vague enough "prophecies". Given enough time any reasonable prophecy that is vague enough will be "fuffillled" at least once and quite often multiple times.

That was failed prophecy number one.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is not the way it is done. Surely you know that by now.

That is exactly the way it is done, and it was done.
Baha'u'llah was proven to be the return of Christ.

Of course, you cannot possibly know that since you never read the book.
As usual, you speak out of ignorance, thinking you know everything.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet you claimed it was a prophecy.

No, I said it was a prediction, a warning to the ruler.
It sufficed in that regard since the prediction came to pass.
Better luck next time.