The fool has said

[idea]

I think you're arguing for me?

yes

Right. In the real live disbelief in God is not the cause of people's unrighteous actions but isn't that what Psalm 14:1 says?
"For the director of music. Of David. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good."

"Thefool hath said in his heart, There is no God."
An atheist is "a fool",

"They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."
and everyone (not just atheists) is corrupt.


2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

God is looking for two different things
1) Understand - people who are not idiots - who are smart enough to recognize that God exists
2) Seek - once they recognize that God exists, that they will actually try to follow God.

 

[Tumah]

yes



An atheist is "a fool", and all of us are corrupt.

Actually, according to my religion, this chapter is a prophecy that David made about Nebuchadnezzar & co. destroying the Temple. The fool is Nebuchadnezzar and his army is the one who was bad. Using the spoils, Belshazzar (Nebby's son) made a feast (Dan. 5:2) and the became afraid (5:6) and eventually, Israel returns from Babylon.

 

[idea]

Actually, according to my religion, this chapter is a prophecy that David made about Nebuchadnezzar & co. destroying the Temple. The fool is Nebuchadnezzar and his army is the one who was bad. Using the spoils, Belshazzar (Nebby's son) made a feast (Dan. 5:2) and the became afraid (5:6) and eventually, Israel returns from Babylon.

I think you're arguing for me?

Who do you believe Nebuchadnezzar represents? What does the temple represent?

I think there are layers, each account is symbolic of other accounts, and explain human nature and general trends that will always be with us. The scriptures are not just some history lesson (although that is part of it), my religion teaches that we should "liken all scriptures unto ourselves"

 

[Tumah]

Right. In the real life disbelief in God is not the cause of people's unrighteous actions but isn't that what Psalm 14:1 says?
"For the director of music. Of David. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good."

It doesn't say if disbelief in G-d causes the person to do bad things, or if the person is bad and therefore doesn't believe in G-d.

 

[Tumah]

Who do you believe Nebuchadnezzar represents? What does the temple represent?

I believe there was a literal Temple and literal Nebuchadnezzar. So I don't see a need to assign symbolism to them when the simplest explanation works. Once we get into symbolism then everybody can come up with their own thing, and it becomes a free-for-all mess.

 

[idea]

I believe there was a literal Temple and literal Nebuchadnezzar. So I don't see a need to assign symbolism to them when the simplest explanation works. Once we get into symbolism then everybody can come up with their own thing, and it becomes a free-for-all mess.

I believe it was literal too - but I think there are lessons we can also learn from it. Out of all of the historical accounts, why do you believe that this account was worth recording in the scriptures? What are we supposed to learn from it? History repeats itself.... Call it symbolism, or just call it an example of what various different philosophies lead to - there is an atheist theme about it.


another translation of 14:1

1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no man that hath seen God. Because he showeth himself not unto us, therefore there is no God. Behold, they are corrupt; they have done abominable works, and none of them doeth good.

2 For the Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, and by his voice said unto his servant, Seek ye among the children of men, to see if there are any that do understand God. And he opened his mouth unto the Lord, and said, Behold, all these who say they are thine.

3 The Lord answered, and said, They are all gone aside, they are together become filthy, thou canst behold none of them that are doing good, no, not one.

4 All they have for their teachers are workers of iniquity,and there is no knowledge in them. They are they who eat up my people. They eat bread and call not upon the Lord.

5 They are in great fear, for God dwells in the generation of the righteous. He is the counsel of the poor, because they are ashamed of the wicked, and flee unto the Lord, for their refuge.

6 They are ashamed of the counsel of the poor because the Lord is his refuge.

7 Oh that Zion were established out of heaven, the salvation of Israel. O Lord, when wilt thou establish Zion?When the Lord bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, Israel shall be glad.

 

[Tumah]

I believe it was literal too - but I think there are lessons we can also learn from it. Out of all of the historical accounts, why do you believe that this account was worth recording in the scriptures? What are we supposed to learn from it? History repeats itself.... Call it symbolism, or just call it an example of what various different philosophies lead to - there is an atheist theme about it.

I'm not really sure how to answer this to you as a Christian.

 

[idea]

I'm not really sure how to answer this to you as a Christian.

We both believe in God. We both study scriptures to learn God's will, to see examples of what works and what does not work. I think we both see parallels between what has happened in the past, and what is currently happening now? Patterns repeat themselves, no?

A literal temple.... I'm a Mormon, we have literal temples. I love temples - I love all that they represent. It is a horrific thing to me to read about temples of the past being torn down.

 

[Tumah]

We both believe in God. We both study scriptures to learn God's will, to see examples of what works and what does not work. I think we both see parallels between what has happened in the past, and what is currently happening now? Patterns repeat themselves, no?

In theory, I don't disagree with you.

 

[savagewind]

It doesn't say if disbelief in G-d causes the person to do bad things, or if the person is bad and therefore doesn't believe in G-d.

OK. Does it mean something or nothing to us?

 

[Tumah]

OK. Does it mean something or nothing to us?

What is the "it" and who is the "us"?

 

[savagewind]

What is the "it" and who is the "us"?

Do the words of Psalm 14:1 mean something to the people of Earth or nothing to the people of Earth because you seem to think it had meaning only for Nebuchanezzar?

 

[Tumah]

Do the words of Psalm 14:1 mean something to the people of Earth or nothing to the people of Earth because you seem to think it had meaning only for Nebuchanezzar?

I am sure it has many different meanings for many different people on Earth. However, the intended meaning was only meant for the specific people who that Psalm was given to.

 

[savagewind]

I am sure it has many different meanings for many different people on Earth. However, the intended meaning was only meant for the specific people who that Psalm was given to.

You are a tough patient! Was it intended to have real meaning to somebody other than Nebuchanezzar? You say, "no". Correct? @idea and I say "absolutely". Yes, it has meaning for people today. So? What is it? I have said what I think it means. OK? It is perfectly ok with me that you do not believe it.
BUT it is not ok with the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses that I do not agree with their interpretation. That is the point. THEY say they have been given ownership of the meaning of every scripture. Did you not know that?

 

[Tumah]

You are a tough patient! Was it intended to have real meaning to somebody other than Nebuchanezzar? You say, "no". Correct? @idea and I say "absolutely". Yes, it has meaning for people today. So? What is it? I have said what I think it means. OK? It is perfectly ok with me that you do not believe it.
BUT it is not ok with the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses that I do not agree with their interpretation. That is the point. THEY say they have been given ownership of the meaning of every scripture. Did you not know that?

You're posting me to death over here.
I don't think the chapter had any meaning to Nebuchadnezzar since Nebuchadnezzar would not be born for another few hundred years, nor would he be likely to have read the chapter. I do think the chapter was written for G-d's nation, since they are both part of the topic of the chapter, and who the chapter was given to for study.

I do not know anything about JW theology with regards to Scriptures and I purposely haven't made any effort to find out.

 

[savagewind]

You're posting me to death over here.
I don't think the chapter had any meaning to Nebuchadnezzar since Nebuchadnezzar would not be born for another few hundred years, nor would he be likely to have read the chapter. I do think the chapter was written for G-d's nation, since they are both part of the topic of the chapter, and who the chapter was given to for study.

What good did writing it do, in your opinion? I believe Jesus Christ Mark 10:18. I believe holy people wrote the truth and it has been for the most part miraculously preserved. So I ask you, for what was Psalm 14:1 written for?

I do not know anything about JW theology with regards to Scriptures and I purposely haven't made any effort to find out.

We do know that sin has consequences and sometimes those consequences fall upon people who are innocent.

 

[idea]

I am sure it has many different meanings for many different people on Earth. However, the intended meaning was only meant for the specific people who that Psalm was given to.

I think we both believe that the people who wrote the scriptures were prophets - they could see the future, the past, and had a bigger perspective than we do. If they could see more, it stands to reason that they were also writing to more than just one audience. The words have now been given to the entire world. The Catholics tried to keep it for themselves by writing it in Latin, oppressive political regimes have tried to take the scriptures away from commoners, many have tried to hoard and limit the scriptures, and yet here they are, posted on the internet, for everyone to read - for everyone to apply to their own lives. God has given the scriptures to everyone.

The Psalms are songs. A musician is inspired by a sunset to write a song - can this song only be understood and appreciated by those who were able to see the same sunset? or does it apply to other sunsets as well? The point is to unify - to communicate some event, and then have a multitude recognize it, and know the truth of it because they too have experienced very similar events.

We recognize truth, not when a church tells us it is true, not through just reading words in a book - the reality of it all comes crashing in when we apply it, live it, experience it, and then joyfully unite with others who have experienced it too. That is what a fellowship of saints is supposed to be - that is what God's kingdom will be, although on earth everything is imperfect.

Everyone can debate until they are blue in the face - do the JW's claim to be prophets? Do the Jews claim to currently have prophets? The church in the scriptures is built on prophets, not on academics, not on politicians etc. .... Who gave Moses his authority? who gave the leaders in the scriptures their authority? ...

Why would the JW's, or anyone else for that matter, claim to hold the "one and only true" interpretation of the scriptures, unless they also claim to hold the same keys of the priesthood, and prophetic power that was held by Moses? By what authority do you claim your interpretation is correct? The JW's claim their authority from an academic - I believe Pastor Russel? but then they do not now follow Russel's teachings because he miscalculated when the 2nd coming would be... If anyone claims to hold the truth, ask them the simple question - "By what authority?" and then compare their answer to what types of authority taught God's word in the scriptures.

 

[Tumah]

What good did writing it do, in your opinion? I believe Jesus Christ Mark 10:18. I believe holy people wrote the truth and it has been for the most part miraculously preserved. So I ask you, for what was Psalm 14:1 written for?

We do know that sin has consequences and sometimes those consequences fall upon people who are innocent.

For Israel to gain strength when it happens again.

 

[Tumah]

I think we both believe that the people who wrote the scriptures were prophets - they could see the future, the past, and had a bigger perspective than we do. If they could see more, it stands to reason that they were also writing to more than just one audience. The words have now been given to the entire world. The Catholics tried to keep it for themselves by writing it in Latin, oppressive political regimes have tried to take the scriptures away from commoners, many have tried to hoard and limit the scriptures, and yet here they are, posted on the internet, for everyone to read - for everyone to apply to their own lives. God has given the scriptures to everyone.

The Psalms are songs. A musician is inspired by a sunset to write a song - can this song only be understood and appreciated by those who were able to see the same sunset? or does it apply to other sunsets as well? The point is to unify - to communicate some event, and then have a multitude recognize it, and know the truth of it because they too have experienced very similar events.

Or you can say that the Psalmist wrote his Psalms despite the fact that they would be wrested from Israel. Maybe it is better that Israel and the nations should have them, then that Israel shouldn't have them at all.

We recognize truth, not when a church tells us it is true, not through just reading words in a book - the reality of it all comes crashing in when we apply it, live it, experience it, and then joyfully unite with others who have experienced it too. That is what a fellowship of saints is supposed to be - that is what God's kingdom will be, although on earth everything is imperfect.

Everyone can debate until they are blue in the face - do the JW's claim to be prophets? Do the Jews claim to currently have prophets? The church in the scriptures is built on prophets, not on academics, not on politicians etc. .... Who gave Moses his authority? who gave the leaders in the scriptures their authority? ...

Why would the JW's, or anyone else for that matter, claim to hold the "one and only true" interpretation of the scriptures, unless they also claim to hold the same keys of the priesthood, and prophetic power that was held by Moses? By what authority do you claim your interpretation is correct? The JW's claim their authority from an academic - I believe Pastor Russel? but then they do not now follow Russel's teachings because he miscalculated when the 2nd coming would be... If anyone claims to hold the truth, ask them the simple question - "By what authority?" and then compare their answer to what types of authority taught God's word in the scriptures.

I would say by the authority of Moses, who passed that authority to Joshua, who passed that authority to the Judges, who passed that authority to the Prophets, who passed that authority to the Men of the Great Assembly who passed that authority to the Rabbis. So the only real question is, who passed it to the Christians?

 

[savagewind]

For Israel to gain strength when it happens again.

Israel is people. Correct? If so then you are saying that people gain strength with knowing that other people say in heart, "there is no G-d", and bad things happening because of that condition. Really? Also, every second of every day bad things are being done by people with no fear of God in their hearts. So how does knowing that make a person STRONG?