The Four Dirty Secrets Against Darwin Evolution

[Kenny]

All religious faith is blind faith.

I disagree...

 

[F1fan]

I disagree...

I don’t care. What I care about is why you disagree but you seem stumped. So take your time and ponder it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You are on the side of non-belief and I am on the side of belief.

Again... no.

I am on the side of "whatever the evidence points to".

I'm not on the side of "non-belief". I believe plenty of things.
I just require rational justification to underpin those believes.

That's really the main difference between us.
You don't require verifiable evidence. I do.

That inevitably leads to me not believing things that aren't justifiable with verifiable evidence, sure.
In your case, there's no such standard. On faith, you can believe literally anything. There is NOTHING that can't be believed "on faith".

Faith is not a pathway to truth.
That type of faith is a good way to end up with false beliefs.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Apparently you didn't either.

Care to explain?
What point did I miss?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I disagree...

The opposite of "blind faith" would be that it is based on verifiable evidence.

What verifiable evidence do you have for your religious beliefs?
Also, I posit that if you would have such evidence, then you would have no use for "faith".

 

[SkepticThinker]

YES, YES AND YES! It is the best tool that humans with the logical, empirical and verifiable positions, to grow in understanding. We need science.



But... maybe it isn't anecdotal? How many times does in need to happen for it to cease being anecdotal and it becoming a potential factor?

It becomes non-anecdotal when replicable controlled studies are carried out and the results are shown to be statistically significant.

A collection of anecdotes aren't data. They're just a collection of stories, subject to the biases of the person telling them.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I think "supernatural" is a good description of something for which there is no known explanation within the knowledge acquired by humans. If it cannot be explained as a "natural" phenomenon, then it is the opposite.

It seems that atheists are afraid of that word.

So then it's just a placeholder for "We don't know" until we do figure it out.

Like how our ancient ancestors used to attribute lightning to the gods. That is, until we figured out what it is, and it turned out to be a natural phenomenon. Like pretty much everything else that was once thought to be "supernatural."

 

[SkepticThinker]

Out of topic.

It looks to me like a direct response to your post.

 

[SkepticThinker]

When I was young, we did not limit the term "education" to school studies. When we saw a child who was respectful of his parents and older than him, we would say "that child has been well educated by his parents." Now any miss-educated thinks that he is educated.

What? Atheists are responsible for disrespectful children now? That's a new one.

It is one of many human misfortunes that atheism has brought to humanity. It is as if they have set themselves the goal of destroying decency and human values. Why???

I'm a a humanist. I assure you that I am not at all interested in destroying human values. Quite the opposite, in fact.

How terrifying!!!

And made up.

 

[Kenny]

I don’t care. What I care about is why you disagree but you seem stumped. So take your time and ponder it.

If that makes you happy! I'm good with it.

 

[Kenny]

The opposite of "blind faith" would be that it is based on verifiable evidence.

What verifiable evidence do you have for your religious beliefs?
Also, I posit that if you would have such evidence, then you would have no use for "faith".

If you have a Title Deed on a piece of land that you purchased in south Florida, you don't have to see it to have faith that you have it. Indeed, once you have seen it, no faith is needed but the process if purchasing and receiving the Title Deed is still a faith position until you see it.

When you work at a job with the good faith promise that you will get a paycheck, it is by faith until you receive your paycheck. Once you have your paycheck, no more faith is needed, as you said. The Last Will and New Testament is a legal document and a Title Deed (analogy) for us

Blind presumption and foolish faith is something like... "Well... All things are possible if believe so I'll just jump off the cliff because he won't let my feet be dashed against the stone"... when you have no promise to stand on it. Many people just don't understand the principles, laws, that govern all of it.

If we have the promise and faith that if someone will lay hands on you and you will be healed, (wishing my signature), it is based on a very real promise that Jesus gave. So when they laid hands on me, I was instantly healed. Before I was healed, I had faith. After I was healed, no faith was necessary because I now have the evidence of the thing that I was believing for.

Now... one doesn't have to believe like I do and you can still go to a doctor, get your prescription and still be healed. I have used both and both worked.

So, when I have been healed, along with others, multiple times, it is enough evidence for me and for them! May not be for you but that is ok. You still can go to the doctor. I just never got a bill from God when He did it.

Again, the most common problem I have found has been just teaching and understanding - the same problem that Jesus encountered.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don't understand... What year did Jesus start his ministries? Who did you want to write these things down? Did you want them catalouged by last name or by age? Why did you want them to write it down immediately?

No, my friend, me thinks thou dost protest too much.

Me thinks thou art too dismissive.

Those were very good questions posed to you. Why didn't anyone else notice and record what would have been quite an amazing event - dead people coming out of their graves and walking around! Nobody recorded it at the time it supposedly happened.

 

[Kenny]

Me thinks thou are too dismissive.

Those were very good questions posed to you. Why didn't anyone else notice and record what would have been quite an amazing event - dead people coming out of their graves and walking around! Nobody recorded it at the time it supposedly happened.

I answered that. Maybe you sped read over it. There are many things that have never been recorded over that time and the moment that it happened. iPhone instant recording wasn't available neither was paper and pen

 

[SkepticThinker]

I answered that. Maybe you sped read over it.

Another attempt at dismissiveness.
No, I read your dismissive answer in it's entirety.

There are many things that have never been recorded over that time and the moment that it happened. iPhone instant recording wasn't available neither was paper and pen

This was in response to, "Those were very good questions posed to you. Why didn't anyone else notice and record what would have been quite an amazing event - dead people coming out of their graves and walking around! Nobody recorded it at the time it supposedly happened."

And you just did it again. I mean, this would have been a huge deal - to see dead people coming to life and walking around town. Yet there is absolutely zero recording of it from any contemporaries - or anyone at all, ever - outside the Bible. As though it only exists in the book as a made-up story.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No... that isn't the definition of faith. Blind faith is foolishness and presumption - whether secular or religious.

It does appear to be the definition of your religious faith. You could quote the Bible, but it just says the same thing, along with a blatantly false claim, in more poetic language. What makes you think that your religious belief is not a blind faith?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Apparently you didn't either.

Now, now, no false accusations against others. Try to learn from your errors.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I answered that. Maybe you sped read over it. There are many things that have never been recorded over that time and the moment that it happened. iPhone instant recording wasn't available neither was paper and pen

And there are standards for historical evidence. The Bible tends to fail many of those standards. We can reasonable conclude that some of it is true. There almost certainly was a man named Jesus that had a following and was crucified by the Romans. That is probably true. There was a King David, that is probably true. There are also many scientific and historical claims that are obviously false. There once were only two people. False. There was once a worldwide flood. False. Only eight people survived that flood. Also false. Jesus was born twice ten years apart from each other. Obviously false. Some claims of the Bible can be tested and confirmed or falsified. Not all of them can be. But since we reject magical claims for other religions when it comes to historical beliefs we do the same for Christian claims.

 

[F1fan]

If you have a Title Deed on a piece of land that you purchased in south Florida, you don't have to see it to have faith that you have it. Indeed, once you have seen it, no faith is needed but the process if purchasing and receiving the Title Deed is still a faith position until you see it.

When you work at a job with the good faith promise that you will get a paycheck, it is by faith until you receive your paycheck. Once you have your paycheck, no more faith is needed, as you said. The Last Will and New Testament is a legal document and a Title Deed (analogy) for us

But it isn’t a legal document. It’s religious dogma that is absurd given it’s based on implausible assumptions. You illustrate how Christians can believe in all sorts of implausible and absurd ideas.

Blind presumption and foolish faith is something like... "Well... All things are possible if believe so I'll just jump off the cliff because he won't let my feet be dashed against the stone"... when you have no promise to stand on it. Many people just don't understand the principles, laws, that govern all of it.

Yet you are gambling your life on ideas that are implausible. Ever lasting life in heaven if you spend your life believing in absurd ideas? That’s not worth it. I am a seeker of truth, not a seeker for dogma.

If we have the promise and faith that if someone will lay hands on you and you will be healed, (wishing my signature), it is based on a very real promise that Jesus gave. So when they laid hands on me, I was instantly healed. Before I was healed, I had faith. After I was healed, no faith was necessary because I now have the evidence of the thing that I was believing for.

Yup, you bought all that because someone told you it’s true. Notice critical thinkers expose these ideas as baseless.

Now... one doesn't have to believe like I do and you can still go to a doctor, get your prescription and still be healed. I have used both and both worked.

There are stories of many deaths that came from faith healing. Even arrests and convictions. The law is based on evidence so it doesn’t acknowledge faith healing.

So, when I have been healed, along with others, multiple times, it is enough evidence for me and for them! May not be for you but that is ok. You still can go to the doctor. I just never got a bill from God when He did it.

You roll the dice and don’t die. That’s just gambling on outcomes. If a God is really concerned about the health of people it would have designed us to not get sick. Of course humans are like any other animal species and we suffer similar illnesses.

Again, the most common problem I have found has been just teaching and understanding - the same problem that Jesus encountered.

Irony. Look how you reject expertise and science.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

If you have a Title Deed on a piece of land that you purchased in south Florida, you don't have to see it to have faith that you have it. Indeed, once you have seen it, no faith is needed but the process if purchasing and receiving the Title Deed is still a faith position until you see it.

When you work at a job with the good faith promise that you will get a paycheck, it is by faith until you receive your paycheck. Once you have your paycheck, no more faith is needed, as you said. The Last Will and New Testament is a legal document and a Title Deed (analogy) for us

We have already been over this. This is a false equivocation on your part.
If you are just going to continue doubling down on your already corrected errors, then this conversation is just a waste of time.

Blind presumption and foolish faith is something like... "Well... All things are possible if believe so I'll just jump off the cliff because he won't let my feet be dashed against the stone"... when you have no promise to stand on it. Many people just don't understand the principles, laws, that govern all of it.

If we have the promise and faith that if someone will lay hands on you and you will be healed, (wishing my signature), it is based on a very real promise that Jesus gave. So when they laid hands on me, I was instantly healed. Before I was healed, I had faith. After I was healed, no faith was necessary because I now have the evidence of the thing that I was believing for.

Now... one doesn't have to believe like I do and you can still go to a doctor, get your prescription and still be healed. I have used both and both worked.

So, when I have been healed, along with others, multiple times, it is enough evidence for me and for them! May not be for you but that is ok. You still can go to the doctor. I just never got a bill from God when He did it.

Again, the most common problem I have found has been just teaching and understanding - the same problem that Jesus encountered.

In other words.... your answer is "no, I don't have verifiable evidence".

You could have just said that instead of this preaching and doubling down on equivocation errors.

 

[Kenny]

@TagliatelliMonster @F1fan @Subduction Zone @SkepticThinker (Exhausted in answering every detail of you four )

Ok... charged with false equivalency, fallacies, it isn't a legal document, anecdotal evidence and a plethora of other reasons of which I don't agree with,, let us conclude..... that we are on opposite sides of the coin.

You choose to live with what man can do on his understanding and science and I choose to live with what man can do on his understand and science seasoned with miracles do many to count.

You don't have to live with miracles but you get to if you want to.