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The Four Dirty Secrets Against Darwin Evolution

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Please, just because the math is beyond you is not a valid reason to attack it. You need to do better than that.


Oh my more nonsense and projection. Try to find a serious argument against evolution if you do not like it. Don't make up false narratives.


You don't have the education that would allow you to make such an analysis even if it was a real thing.
I was a Chemical Engineer by Trade who was inducted into an honorary chemistry society as a junior. My Math induction was in High School. While an Engineering induction was as a senior. I chose chemical engineering over chemistry because a MS ChemE made more money than a PhD Chemist, back in the day.

I think in terms of chemicals, like others do with words. My goal is to make the water analysis simple, so you can do it in your head. There is no black box needed. The problem is black box science does not understand rational science. Blind testing is not how you develop rational models. You need to be consistent with data that is already here. New obscure data is not needed, since all I need is already here.

Water is unique in that water is a terminal product of H2 and O2 combustion. This is one of the hottest flames on earth, making the water product very stable; tested in fire. Water is stable and cannot be reduced any further. It is the perfect bookend for life. It always stays the same, while its carbon based partner is always changing through evolution. There is a bookend tether to the majority molecule in life; water. Like a dog on a leash, the organics can walk in a circle, but only so far, until we let out the tether further for a new entropic state.

Other solvents like alcohols, speculated for life, can be modified and even used as food/fuel. Even ammonia which has hydrogen bonds, is reactive, and can also be used as fuel. It is not a terminal molecule like water. CO2 is terminal but it is not a liquid a room temperature, due to lack of water's hydrogen bonding.

Water although very stable in terms of its primary bonding, is very dynamic in terms of its secondary bonding, which is hydrogen bonding. The pH affect of water shows how hydrogen bonding, which can switch between polar and covalent bonding character, can be used to break strong primary bonds. This is very useful to life.

The naked bases of DNA do not hydrogen bond as base pairs in water, unless they are part of the larger DNA polymer. The DNA was built from the ground up, designed to create surface tension in water, and thereby make the base pairs hydrogen bond, as way to lower surface tension in water, with water also part of these hydrogen bonds; double helix of water. This makes it reversible.

DNA will not work in any other solvent besides water, because it is tuned to water. Other solvents would need their own molecular template molecule, which nobody has designed, for any other solvent. Although some have tried with silicon.

Water is not the only molecule that forms hydrogen bonds. It is unique in that each small water molecule can form up to four hydrogen bonds with other water. This makes water have a very large heat capacity and boiling point, since separating individual water molecules is very difficult being so bonded together. The hydrogen bonds keep it together and can absorb lots of energy before they break. When we add organics to water, such as in life, water is separated and will respond in ways to maximize the local and global hydrogen bonding grid. Every point in the water matrix has the same goal with water able to integrate during any cell wide activity.

Information can move through the integrated hydrogen bonding matrix. Hydrogen bonds are like a binary switch that can switch between polar and covalent settings. Each switch setting has different properties. The polar side of the switch defines higher density or less volume, more entropy and more enthalpy. The covalence side has lower density or more volume, lower entropy and lower enthalpy. This switch can send information with muscle. If we sent information that switches water to the covalent setting, it will expand and put on the squeeze, and lower the organic entropy and enthalpy.

Surface tension implies a pulling apart; getting larger. This triggers the lower density covalent setting that expands and appears under tension. Water prefers a majority polar setting, so adjustments will be made to have less covalent switch settings and less surface tension.

If you look at the two settings, the polar is about electrostatic charge with opposite charges wanting to get closer and closer. With the covalent setting, it about covalent bonding orbitals overlapping which is very directional. This is more based on magnetic addition, than electrostatic, to allow opposite spin electrons to co-exist and not repel electro-statically; magnetic compensation. At some level, water via its hydrogen bonding, is able to separate the EM force into its two components like a switch.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Different forms: There are provision miracles, healing miracles, financial miracles, et al... different forms.

I asked you to properly define them in such a way that they can be distinguished from sheer fantasy.
You can't do that?

How do you distinguish a "miracle" from a mere random / rare / natural event?

that is true.

So your statement was false. Fantasy most certainly can produce results, just like placebo's.

Back in the day when there was such a thing as an electronic machine called "Canon electronic memory typewriters" that could be dubbed as a printer, I had just accepted Jesus as Lord and realized that the current job that I had was no longer a place to remain. As an assistant manager awaiting a store to manage, I came to the conclusion that I could either be married to my job or married to my wife and find out about this God that just transformed me.

An opportunity arose for me to sell those machines as a commission-only contract. Having had a steady income for the previous 10 years, it was a daunting consideration. I didn't know if I was a salesman. The manager of the company was OK with me trying it out on my weekday off. (Grocery chain meant weekends and holidays).

I was asking God to show me or tell me whether or not this was the door of opportunity that He wanted me to take. Arriving in the city of Vero Beach, Fl, I stopped at a L-shaped strip-mall. Parked, got out of my car, grabbed the $2100 - $3,000 piece of machinery and started walking toward the businesses. Half way to the businesses I thought to myself "These small businesses can't afford this piece of equipment!" so I turned around to go back to my car.

As I walked back, I just closed my eyes with a song of praise on my lips for a few seconds and as I did that, I saw letters in an arc shape. Call it a vision, I don't know what else to call it. I turned around and noticed where the legs of the L-shape met, there was an insurance business with the lettering of the business was in an arc shape. The only business with lettering in an arc shape.

I went to the business and found out they were about to close on a competitors electronic typewriter. They bought mine.

Placebo? Don't think so... happens too many times
Chance? Don't think so... not with a vision of arc shaped letters

Of course, someone else can throw this historical event as trash... but for me, I would prefer continuing to live a life full of miracles as there are many instances of things like unto this.
How is this a "miracle"?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I asked you to properly define them in such a way that they can be distinguished from sheer fantasy.
You can't do that?

How do you distinguish a "miracle" from a mere random / rare / natural event?

I answered that... when something goes beyond the natural

So your statement was false. Fantasy most certainly can produce results, just like placebo's.

Not really... just acknowledging placebo effect.
How is this a "miracle"?
It defies the natural. How often do you get a vision like that? Is that natural? and so many others that eliminates the potential placebo effect.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
I asked you to properly define them in such a way that they can be distinguished from sheer fantasy.
You can't do that?

How do you distinguish a "miracle" from a mere random / rare / natural event?
I answered that... when something goes beyond the natural

That’s not good enough, Kenny.

The only things that “goes beyond the natural”, is “artificial” or “man-made”.

And man-made & artificial aren’t “supernatural“.

For instance, a chair don’t exist in nature. But with right materials (and tools), a person can make a chair. While the chair isn’t natural, it isn’t supernatural. More importantly, the chair doesn’t defy any physical law.

The fact is “supernatural” simply don’t exist in reality, because it is either wild imagination, wishful thinking or at worse, it’s delusion. Supernatural (eg magic and miracles, any supernatural beings, heaven and hell, etc) is nothing more than a fantasy.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
that is not a logical deduction and a misapplication of what I said.

but man-made or artificial are the only things that go beyond nature, without being “supernatural“.

everything about the “supernatural” that defy the physical or natural laws, whether it be…
  • entities (eg gods, spirits, angels, jinns, demons, fairies, etc)
  • or objects (eg crucifix, amulet, talisman, magic staff, wand, etc)
  • or place (eg heaven, hell, netherworld, Elysium, Valhalla, etc)
  • or events (such as miracles, afterlife (eg resurrection), reincarnation, etc)
  • or abilities (witchcraft, magic, remote viewing, clairvoyance, astro-projection, etc)
…such “supernatural” are not only unnatural, they don’t exist except as I have already told you from fanciful imagination, unrealistic (and unnatural) beliefs or delusion.

if supernatural exist, and you are claiming they are real, then it is up to you, you’ll need to show evidence that they do exist.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
but man-made or artificial are the only things that go beyond nature, without being “supernatural“.

everything about the “supernatural” that defy the physical or natural laws, whether it be…
  • entities (eg gods, spirits, angels, jinns, demons, fairies, etc)
  • or objects (eg crucifix, amulet, talisman, magic staff, wand, etc)
  • or place (eg heaven, hell, netherworld, Elysium, Valhalla, etc)
  • or events (such as miracles, afterlife (eg resurrection), reincarnation, etc)
  • or abilities (witchcraft, magic, remote viewing, clairvoyance, astro-projection, etc)
…such “supernatural” are not only unnatural, they don’t exist except as I have already told you from fanciful imagination, unrealistic (and unnatural) beliefs or delusion.

if supernatural exist, and you are claiming they are real, then it is up to you, you’ll need to show evidence that they do exist.
I see where you are coming from which includes a different perspective.

I think the reality is that mankind has set parameters that are within their reality which aren't necessarily true reality. As and example:

My wife lived in Venezuela in a dilapidated colonial style home where the rooms were rented out to make ends meet financially. One communal large kitchen. For them it was "natural" and "normal" to have mice scurrying around on counter tops and popping up as you opened a drawer. Their reality was that this was "natural" and "normal". It wasn't for me and I had a different perspective. But their "normal" wasn't actually normal at all... it was just they had grown accustomed to the abnormal thinking that it was normal.

Playing dominoes one night, I caught over 20 mice with traps that I had purchased!

Does the miraculous actually defy the natural? Or is it simple a natural spiritual higher law that supersedes a lower natural visible law? Is, for you, the "natural" the "normal"? Or is that one has become so accustomed to the unnatural of the normal that the normality of a life of miracles is not longer within one's radar of living.

The higher law of the spiritual side, in my understanding and paradigm for living, is quite normal so I experience it. Those who live win a lower natural law, don't.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I see where you are coming from which includes a different perspective.

I think the reality is that mankind has set parameters that are within their reality which aren't necessarily true reality. As and example:

My wife lived in Venezuela in a dilapidated colonial style home where the rooms were rented out to make ends meet financially. One communal large kitchen. For them it was "natural" and "normal" to have mice scurrying around on counter tops and popping up as you opened a drawer. Their reality was that this was "natural" and "normal". It wasn't for me and I had a different perspective. But their "normal" wasn't actually normal at all... it was just they had grown accustomed to the abnormal thinking that it was normal.

Playing dominoes one night, I caught over 20 mice with traps that I had purchased!

How you think this is in any way analogous to what @gnostic said is simply baffling tbh...

Does the miraculous actually defy the natural?

If it doesn't, then how can you distinguish a "miraculous" event from a mere "natural" event?
I asked multiple times. No answers are forthcoming...

If I win the lottery, is that a "miraculous" event or just luck?
If I'm in a plane crash and I'm the only survivor, is that a "miraculous" event or just luck?
If doctors say my cancer is terminal and then go into a remission with the tumor gone on my next scan, is that a "miraculous" event or just luck?

How do you tell the difference?

Or is it simple a natural spiritual higher law that supersedes a lower natural visible law?

What is a "natural spiritual higher law"?


Is, for you, the "natural" the "normal"? Or is that one has become so accustomed to the unnatural of the normal that the normality of a life of miracles is not longer within one's radar of living.

You are confusing "normal" with "natural" here.
For example "counter-intuitive" is not "normal". But it is still natural.

For instance.... Dropping a book and a feather at the same time and them falling at the exact same speed and both touching the ground at the exact same moment is "not normal" and "counter-intuitive". But it is exactly what happens in a vaccuum. And that is "natural". But not "intuitive" as it falls outside of our daily experience (since we don't live in a vaccuum).

Now, dropping a hammer in regular circumstances, without additional tech whatsoever, and said hammer then simply floating in the air instead of falling to the ground - or worse: shooting off into space - and thus completely defying / ignoring gravity... now that would be not only counter-intuitive and abnormal... it would be unnatural.


I hope you see the difference.

The higher law of the spiritual side

What is that? What are you talking about?

, in my understanding and paradigm for living, is quite normal so I experience it. Those who live win a lower natural law, don't.
You are just moving the goalposts here.
Now I'm going to ask you what the difference is between "lower natural law" and "higher spiritual law" and how one can objectively tell the difference.

But you won't be giving a straight answer to that either, right?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Does the miraculous actually defy the natural?

The following miracles are examples of “not natural”:
  • turning dust or soil into a FULLY-GROWN MALE HUMAN
  • turning water into wine

While wine grapes certainly contain water content, WATER by itself cannot turn into wine without grape being fermented.

The only way that just water can turn into wine, is through magic.

Likewise, the major composition of soil are sediments of silicon-based minerals, such as (A) silicates, like feldspar or (B) silica, like quartz (found in sandy soil and sometimes in silt). Silicate make up about 45% of soil, about 5% of soil are organic matters, of which most are made of bacteria,

Silica and silicate are inorganic molecules, and in molecular biology have found no silicate or silica in any human body; they don’t exist in any tissues, nor in any cells. Not even in trace amount.

There are minerals in every life form, including humans, such as calcium with phosphate-based mineral, called hydroxyapatite’s. Hydroxyapatite are the inorganic components that make up bones and teeth. There are no silicate and no silica in the hydroxyapatite.

so for Genesis 2:7 saying that God created the first human from soil - the dust of the ground - only demonstrated the author(s) of Genesis that’s not naturally possible.

So that miracle too, defy nature.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I think the reality is that mankind has set parameters that are within their reality which aren't necessarily true reality. As and example:

My wife lived in Venezuela in a dilapidated colonial style home where the rooms were rented out to make ends meet financially. One communal large kitchen. For them it was "natural" and "normal" to have mice scurrying around on counter tops and popping up as you opened a drawer. Their reality was that this was "natural" and "normal". It wasn't for me and I had a different perspective. But their "normal" wasn't actually normal at all... it was just they had grown accustomed to the abnormal thinking that it was normal.

Playing dominoes one night, I caught over 20 mice with traps that I had purchased!

Sorry, but I was expecting to see a miracle in your example, but nothing I see there that defy nature in the “supernatural“ way.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
How you think this is in any way analogous to what @gnostic said is simply baffling tbh...



If it doesn't, then how can you distinguish a "miraculous" event from a mere "natural" event?
I asked multiple times. No answers are forthcoming...

If I win the lottery, is that a "miraculous" event or just luck?
If I'm in a plane crash and I'm the only survivor, is that a "miraculous" event or just luck?
If doctors say my cancer is terminal and then go into a remission with the tumor gone on my next scan, is that a "miraculous" event or just luck?

How do you tell the difference?



What is a "natural spiritual higher law"?




You are confusing "normal" with "natural" here.
For example "counter-intuitive" is not "normal". But it is still natural.

For instance.... Dropping a book and a feather at the same time and them falling at the exact same speed and both touching the ground at the exact same moment is "not normal" and "counter-intuitive". But it is exactly what happens in a vaccuum. And that is "natural". But not "intuitive" as it falls outside of our daily experience (since we don't live in a vaccuum).

Now, dropping a hammer in regular circumstances, without additional tech whatsoever, and said hammer then simply floating in the air instead of falling to the ground - or worse: shooting off into space - and thus completely defying / ignoring gravity... now that would be not only counter-intuitive and abnormal... it would be unnatural.


I hope you see the difference.



What is that? What are you talking about?


You are just moving the goalposts here.
Now I'm going to ask you what the difference is between "lower natural law" and "higher spiritual law" and how one can objectively tell the difference.

But you won't be giving a straight answer to that either, right?
Goal post moved because gnostic moved the goalpost. My answer to him/her was in context of what he was talking about... so to bring his point into your point is mixing milk with vinegar.

So... unless you want to change the subject within your context... you will have to let me know and I will redirect my answers.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The following miracles are examples of “not natural”:
  • turning dust or soil into a FULLY-GROWN MALE HUMAN
  • turning water into wine

While wine grapes certainly contain water content, WATER by itself cannot turn into wine without grape being fermented.

The only way that just water can turn into wine, is through magic.

Likewise, the major composition of soil are sediments of silicon-based minerals, such as (A) silicates, like feldspar or (B) silica, like quartz (found in sandy soil and sometimes in silt). Silicate make up about 45% of soil, about 5% of soil are organic matters, of which most are made of bacteria,

Silica and silicate are inorganic molecules, and in molecular biology have found no silicate or silica in any human body; they don’t exist in any tissues, nor in any cells. Not even in trace amount.

There are minerals in every life form, including humans, such as calcium with phosphate-based mineral, called hydroxyapatite’s. Hydroxyapatite are the inorganic components that make up bones and teeth. There are no silicate and no silica in the hydroxyapatite.

so for Genesis 2:7 saying that God created the first human from soil - the dust of the ground - only demonstrated the author(s) of Genesis that’s not naturally possible.

So that miracle too, defy nature.
You are absolutely correct!!!

Another one, that our youth have experienced, is a multiplying of food. Amazing, isn't it?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Sorry, but I was expecting to see a miracle in your example, but nothing I see there that defy nature in the “supernatural“ way.
I'm sorry, why were you expecting an example of a miracle when I was simple defining a thought?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I'm sorry, why were you expecting an example of a miracle when I was simple defining a thought?

Kenny

I was trying to follow your line of thought, Kenny.

You started off with your experience with mice, your example. Then you had followed this example with the rest of your post:

Does the miraculous actually defy the natural? Or is it simple a natural spiritual higher law that supersedes a lower natural visible law? Is, for you, the "natural" the "normal"? Or is that one has become so accustomed to the unnatural of the normal that the normality of a life of miracles is not longer within one's radar of living.

The higher law of the spiritual side, in my understanding and paradigm for living, is quite normal so I experience it. Those who live win a lower natural law, don't.

Since you shared your experience in your wife’s home about mice freely running about the property, followed by this question “Does the miraculous actually defy the natural?” How else should I respond to your post?

you were the who gave your example following up with question about miracle. Isn’t it your fault for my misunderstanding by you posing questions with unrelated and irrelevant example?

And just how is your example is the “natural spiritual higher law”?

I saw nothing spiritual about your example, nor higher than natural law.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I was a Chemical Engineer by Trade who was inducted into an honorary chemistry society as a junior. My Math induction was in High School. While an Engineering induction was as a senior. I chose chemical engineering over chemistry because a MS ChemE made more money than a PhD Chemist, back in the day.

I think in terms of chemicals, like others do with words. My goal is to make the water analysis simple, so you can do it in your head. There is no black box needed. The problem is black box science does not understand rational science. Blind testing is not how you develop rational models. You need to be consistent with data that is already here. New obscure data is not needed, since all I need is already here.

Sorry, but not every reaction is simple. You should know that. Worse yet biological reactions are highly complex because they involve many chemicals at times. You claims about DNA appear to be pure nonsense.
Water is unique in that water is a terminal product of H2 and O2 combustion. This is one of the hottest flames on earth, making the water product very stable; tested in fire. Water is stable and cannot be reduced any further. It is the perfect bookend for life. It always stays the same, while its carbon based partner is always changing through evolution. There is a bookend tether to the majority molecule in life; water. Like a dog on a leash, the organics can walk in a circle, but only so far, until we let out the tether further for a new entropic state.
When you ramble like this your knowledge about chemistry becomes rather dubious/
Other solvents like alcohols, speculated for life, can be modified and even used as food/fuel. Even ammonia which has hydrogen bonds, is reactive, and can also be used as fuel. It is not a terminal molecule like water. CO2 is terminal but it is not a liquid a room temperature, due to lack of water's hydrogen bonding.

Water although very stable in terms of its primary bonding, is very dynamic in terms of its secondary bonding, which is hydrogen bonding. The pH affect of water shows how hydrogen bonding, which can switch between polar and covalent bonding character, can be used to break strong primary bonds. This is very useful to life.

The naked bases of DNA do not hydrogen bond as base pairs in water, unless they are part of the larger DNA polymer. The DNA was built from the ground up, designed to create surface tension in water, and thereby make the base pairs hydrogen bond, as way to lower surface tension in water, with water also part of these hydrogen bonds; double helix of water. This makes it reversible.

DNA will not work in any other solvent besides water, because it is tuned to water. Other solvents would need their own molecular template molecule, which nobody has designed, for any other solvent. Although some have tried with silicon.

Water is not the only molecule that forms hydrogen bonds. It is unique in that each small water molecule can form up to four hydrogen bonds with other water. This makes water have a very large heat capacity and boiling point, since separating individual water molecules is very difficult being so bonded together. The hydrogen bonds keep it together and can absorb lots of energy before they break. When we add organics to water, such as in life, water is separated and will respond in ways to maximize the local and global hydrogen bonding grid. Every point in the water matrix has the same goal with water able to integrate during any cell wide activity.

Information can move through the integrated hydrogen bonding matrix. Hydrogen bonds are like a binary switch that can switch between polar and covalent settings. Each switch setting has different properties. The polar side of the switch defines higher density or less volume, more entropy and more enthalpy. The covalence side has lower density or more volume, lower entropy and lower enthalpy. This switch can send information with muscle. If we sent information that switches water to the covalent setting, it will expand and put on the squeeze, and lower the organic entropy and enthalpy.

Surface tension implies a pulling apart; getting larger. This triggers the lower density covalent setting that expands and appears under tension. Water prefers a majority polar setting, so adjustments will be made to have less covalent switch settings and less surface tension.

If you look at the two settings, the polar is about electrostatic charge with opposite charges wanting to get closer and closer. With the covalent setting, it about covalent bonding orbitals overlapping which is very directional. This is more based on magnetic addition, than electrostatic, to allow opposite spin electrons to co-exist and not repel electro-statically; magnetic compensation. At some level, water via its hydrogen bonding, is able to separate the EM force into its two components like a switch.
How about we drop the nonsense and learn some biology first?
 
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